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Old
03-05-2012, 04:14 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Agree completely. There are really two options:

1. Suter and Weber both walk, one this year and another next year.

2. Suter and Weber both sign extensions after this season.

I think 2. is more likely, but if 1. happens, the cost will be so high we can't do it without wrecking the team too much.

Would it be too much to ask Briere or Kimmo to waive their no-trades?
I would love to move Briere but i highly doubt it would ever happen. Kimmo is making a little less with only a yr left on his deal compared to 3 for briere plus kimmo said the other day he thinks he might have a couple more yrs in him. if you trade him you can forget re-signing him at a discounted rate which would be great.

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Old
03-05-2012, 04:42 PM
  #52
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That's the roster using the numbers i mentioned through the thread and a $69MM upper limit:

FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jaromir Jagr ($3.200m)
Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Jakub Voracek ($3.000m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m)
Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Braydon Coburn ($4.500m)
Matt Carle ($5.200m) / Pavel Kubina ($3.200m)
Nicklas Grossman ($3.600m) / Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)

GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) / Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $69,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $70,416,944; BONUSES: $3,555,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $2,138,056

I don't expect that to happen, we never just re-sign our players, but it would be possible.

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Old
03-05-2012, 05:07 PM
  #53
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CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m)
Matt Read ($0.900m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Jakub Voracek ($2.750m)
Eric Wellwood ($0.580m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m)
Tom Sestito ($0.605m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Braydon Coburn ($4.500m)
Ryan Suter ($6.800m) / Pavel Kubina ($3.750m)
Erik Gustafsson ($0.900m) / Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)

GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) / xxxx ($0.900m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,446,944; BONUSES: $3,555,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): -$2,201,944

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Old
03-05-2012, 05:18 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Deckard View Post
That's the roster using the numbers i mentioned through the thread and a $69MM upper limit:

FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jaromir Jagr ($3.200m)
Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Jakub Voracek ($3.000m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m)
Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Braydon Coburn ($4.500m)
Matt Carle ($5.200m) / Pavel Kubina ($3.200m)
Nicklas Grossman ($3.600m) / Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)

GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) / Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $69,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $70,416,944; BONUSES: $3,555,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $2,138,056

I don't expect that to happen, we never just re-sign our players, but it would be possible.
If the cap really stabilizes at $69 M for all of next year, I have to believe Flyers are taking a serious run at Suter rather than settling on an overpay for Carle.

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Old
03-05-2012, 05:23 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
If the cap really stabilizes at $69 M for all of next year, I have to believe Flyers are taking a serious run at Suter rather than settling on an overpay for Carle.
Me too, but Suter will get a contract as rich as Timonen's, with the cap as high as mentioned thats around $8.5MM p/a.

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Old
03-05-2012, 05:26 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Rick Deckard View Post
Me too, but Suter will get a contract as rich as Timonen's, with the cap as high as mentioned thats around $8.5MM p/a.
The Flyers have deep enough pockets to front-load their deal and potentially make it just as financially attractive as someone else who is evenly distributing a higher AAV.

Edit: Also an $8.5 M cap hit seems very optimistic for the Suter camp. I think he could get $8.5 M (or more) in certain years of the deal, but not over the average life of the contract. Yes, a higher cap re-calibrates salary expectations, but $8.5 would be the 4th highest cap hit in the league currently (probably 5th or 6th once Parise and Weber get their deals). I think he'll have trouble getting a team to put him in that company.


Last edited by Damaged Goods: 03-05-2012 at 05:34 PM.
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Old
03-05-2012, 05:31 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
The Flyers have deep enough pockets to front-load their deal and potentially make it just as financially attractive as someone else who is evenly distributing a higher AAV.
Would you offer him a 10-12 year deal? That definitely could be attractive to him based on how we always remain a contender throughout the duration of the contract. There is only a small group of teams that compete every year like the Flyers, especially looks more promising with all the young developing forwards.

Hehe, pipe dream here, but Suter could maybe put in a good word for the Flyers when it comes to getting Weber

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Old
03-05-2012, 05:34 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
The Flyers have deep enough pockets to front-load their deal and potentially make it just as financially attractive as someone else who is evenly distributing a higher AAV.
I took Timonens caphit, his contract was front-loaded too. And Suter is only 27, you need at least 8 years to get to an age where he thinks about retiring, so, 10 years, 80 million to get the deal more cap-friendly.

Regarding your edit: I believe that teams assign a percentage of the cap to certain parts of their roster, based on Timonen's contract we assign 12,5% of the upper limit to a #1 defenseman. Thats $8.5MM with a $69MM upper limit.

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Old
03-05-2012, 05:43 PM
  #59
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Rick are you talking about salary or caphit?

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Old
03-05-2012, 05:46 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Deckard View Post
I took Timonens caphit, his contract was front-loaded too. And Suter is only 27, you need at least 8 years to get to an age where he thinks about retiring, so, 10 years, 80 million to get the deal more cap-friendly.

Regarding your edit: I believe that teams assign a percentage of the cap to certain parts of their roster, based on Timonen's contract we assign 12,5% of the upper limit to a #1 defenseman. Thats $8.5MM with a $69MM upper limit.
I would use more than one comp. Timonen was 32 at the time, so the Flyers didn't have the same flexibility with their term that they could with Suter, and it was also in the earlier days of the cap when teams were less creative. For instance, the Flyers signed Pronger (an even older but just as good defenseman) to 7 year contract with a lower cap hit a couple years later, when the cap was even higher. That contract was so "creative" that the league investigated the contract for cap circumvention. With a defenseman's Suter's age, I think the Flyers would be eager to front-load a very long contract in order to get the cap structure they want.

In Kimmo's case, you also have to consider that the Flyers were coming off their most disappointing season in franchise history and they were extremely desperate to improve immediately in the summer of 2007.

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Old
03-05-2012, 05:50 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Rick are you talking about salary or caphit?
Caphit .... money-wise Timonen got $8MM through the first years, 16% of the upper limit. (20% are allowed)


Last edited by Rick Deckard: 03-05-2012 at 06:10 PM.
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Old
03-05-2012, 05:56 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
I would use more than one comp. Timonen was 32 at the time, so the Flyers didn't have the same flexibility with their term that they could with Suter, and it was also in the earlier days of the cap when teams were less creative. For instance, the Flyers signed Pronger (an even older but just as good defenseman) to 7 year contract with a lower cap hit a couple years later, when the cap was even higher. That contract was so "creative" that the league investigated the contract for cap circumvention. With a defenseman's Suter's age, I think the Flyers would be eager to front-load a very long contract in order to get the cap structure they want.

In Kimmo's case, you also have to consider that the Flyers were coming off their most disappointing season in franchise history and they were extremely desperate to improve immediately in the summer of 2007.
Sure, but how many #1 defensemen hit the open market? Off the top of my head I can think of Timonen and Bouwmeester since the lockout.

Prongers contract isn't allowed anymore, it's only grand-fathered. Lamoriello took it too far. I think you can until age 40, so how long does Suter think he can play, until that age he wants to be paid well, and when you possibly have two or three years to lower the caphit.


Last edited by Rick Deckard: 03-05-2012 at 06:09 PM.
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Old
03-05-2012, 06:04 PM
  #63
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Well, I'm glad this thread has generated some interesting conversation.

By the way, do you guys really want Suter for 10 years? Even with Bryzgalov looking better of late, I really hope we don't offer any contracts longer than 5-6 years in the future, unless its for someone within the organization that has proven they can work in our system like Giroux.

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Old
03-05-2012, 06:13 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Deckard View Post
$3.2MM would be 60% of what his real value is ... that's a huge paycut.

Bobrovsky is a RFA, if he doesn't like what we offer he can sign with every team outside the NHL, like in Russia.
Real value? He's making $3.3 million and insinuated he would take a pay cut to remain here. While $3.2 million is a pay cut, I don't think that is what he was talking about. I understand what you mean about his value on the open market being higher than $3.2 but when, at least to me, when I hear a guy talk about taking a pay cut to stick around I take that to mean less than what he is making now, not less than what he would get elsewhere. Could be wrong, but if he wants more than what he is making now or the $3.2 you are talking, I don't see them bringing him back. They need defense, not offense.

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Old
03-05-2012, 06:22 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Real value? He's making $3.3 million and insinuated he would take a pay cut to remain here. While $3.2 million is a pay cut, I don't think that is what he was talking about. I understand what you mean about his value on the open market being higher than $3.2 but when, at least to me, when I hear a guy talk about taking a pay cut to stick around I take that to mean less than what he is making now, not less than what he would get elsewhere. Could be wrong, but if he wants more than what he is making now or the $3.2 you are talking, I don't see them bringing him back. They need defense, not offense.
I completely agree, we don't have to re-sign him if he wants to much money. I took Selanne as example because he also took a huge paycut to stay in Anaheim, I don't expect Jagr to sign for even less.

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Old
03-05-2012, 06:24 PM
  #66
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I could be wrong but I really don't think JVR will be back, I think he will be traded.....just a hunch

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Old
03-05-2012, 06:36 PM
  #67
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If it comes to that and they choose to go D over O (which is a very smart idea) I would hope they re-sign Voracek but thats just me. Makes no sense in my eyes to let a young RFA like Voracek go for the sake of an aging Jagr. I know Jagr will probably do more for the team now (or maybe for 2yrs) but they should try their damdest to keep this young forward core together for as long as possible going forward.
I would sign Voracek over Jagr if only one could be had. Voracek is young, fast, strong and plays good defense. We will see if he can elevate his game in the playoffs. He just plays so hard - he seems like one of those guys that will increase his compete level when the stakes go up. But again, we will see.

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Old
03-05-2012, 06:52 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Breeze 44 View Post
I could be wrong but I really don't think JVR will be back, I think he will be traded.....just a hunch
I don't think they will shop him, but I think they will listen to all offers. They aren't really in a position where they HAVE to deal him, but if someone calls with a good offer I think they'll take it. If the Flyers wanted to deal him, I think they would have this season. But they are in the driver's seat. They have a long term deal and a kid with a ton of potential. Hopefully he reaches it...

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Old
03-05-2012, 08:27 PM
  #69
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CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m)
Matt Read ($0.900m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Jakub Voracek ($3.500m)
Eric Wellwood ($0.580m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Braydon Coburn ($4.500m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Pavel Kubina ($3.500m)
Nicklas Grossman ($3.500m) / Marc-Andre Bourdon ($1.000m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)

GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) / Niko Hovinen ($0.950m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,396,944; BONUSES: $2,805,000
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $4,408,056

My dream roster.

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Old
03-05-2012, 08:45 PM
  #70
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Here's my dream roster, which will not happen.

FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($6.000m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Scott Hartnell ($4.200m)
Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m) / Brayden Schenn ($0.900m) / Jakub Voracek ($2.950m)
Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Sean Couturier ($0.930m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Eric Wellwood ($0.580m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Fedor Tyutin ($4.500m)
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Nicklas Grossman ($3.600m)
Pavel Kubina ($3.250m) / Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)

GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) / Niko Hovinen ($0.950m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,291,944; BONUSES: $100,000
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $8,056

-JVR/Bobrovsky/picks/prospects traded for Fedor Tyutin
-Hovinen brought in
-Carle/Jagr walk
-Zach Parise magically signed for $6 million
-Voracek/Grossman/Kubina resigned with raises

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Old
03-05-2012, 08:54 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by flyers1975fan View Post
Here's my dream roster, which will not happen.

FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($6.000m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Scott Hartnell ($4.200m)
Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m) / Brayden Schenn ($0.900m) / Jakub Voracek ($2.950m)
Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Sean Couturier ($0.930m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Eric Wellwood ($0.580m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Fedor Tyutin ($4.500m)
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Pavel Kubina ($3.250m)
Nicklas Grossman ($3.600m) / Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)

GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) / Niko Hovinen ($0.950m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,291,944; BONUSES: $100,000
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $8,056
Not in a million years. No raise for Parise? Tyutin? No 13th forward? Hovinen as backup without ever playing a game in NA? Where is JVR? This would be a very shaky team going forward.

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Old
03-05-2012, 08:58 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by DeflatedFootball7 View Post
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m)
Matt Read ($0.900m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Jakub Voracek ($3.500m)
Eric Wellwood ($0.580m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Braydon Coburn ($4.500m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Pavel Kubina ($3.500m)
Nicklas Grossman ($3.500m) / Marc-Andre Bourdon ($1.000m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)

GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) / Niko Hovinen ($0.950m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,396,944; BONUSES: $2,805,000
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $4,408,056

My dream roster.
If you have $4.4 million left over and only 12 forwards, why not re-sign Jagr for $3 million and have a full 22-man roster? And no Zac Rinaldo playing every night?

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Old
03-05-2012, 08:58 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Not in a million years. No raise for Parise? Tyutin? No 13th forward? Hovinen as backup without ever playing a game in NA? Where is JVR? This would be a very shaky team going forward.
Well Tyutin is acquired in a trade so he's still on a contract and doesn't get a raise. Parise doesn't get a raise because it's my dream roster and I only had $8,000 left in cap space. Hovinen is backup because we have no other option unless they can sign another backup for the same price or less. There's no 13th forward because it's only a 21-man roster and we have to keep Lilja up.

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Old
03-05-2012, 09:02 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Not in a million years. No raise for Parise? Tyutin? No 13th forward? Hovinen as backup without ever playing a game in NA? Where is JVR? This would be a very shaky team going forward.
Agreed on Parise. Tyutin is pretty damn good, would love him on the Flyers. Im guessing Hovinen would win the job in camp in this scenario (since he is coming over next season). JVR Im guessing got traded

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Old
03-05-2012, 09:04 PM
  #75
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If salary cap actually increased to $69 million my dream roster could actually come true.

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