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Old
03-05-2012, 02:54 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
Truth. He breaks in the zone like Pavel Bure, he's sure to get a few just by making the goalie go "what the **** is happening? too fast. TOO FAST!"

Well...maybe not. But the general fear of injecting rookies into the lineup is...well...I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it's dumb. They have to make it eventually. You don't wait until they're a seasoned AHL veteran to decide, yeah he can handle it. After 5 years, our top prospect (who could make 15+ other teams handily) is finally ready for the bigs.
It's not a fear of injecting rookies into the lineup, it's a fear that Murray will pencil multiple players into top 6 roles before they've earned them, like he did for Sbisa (in his case, a top 4 spot) for two straight years before he was ready. Murray shouldn't just assume they are ready, he should fill the holes we have in free agency/through trades and if one of the rookies beats out a veteran for a spot then so be it.

It's how we used to do things and how the majority of the top teams do things. Obviously there are exceptions as guys like Crosby/Ovechkin/Toews etc are sure things.

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03-05-2012, 03:00 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
Truth. He breaks in the zone like Pavel Bure, he's sure to get a few just by making the goalie go "what the **** is happening? too fast. TOO FAST!"

Well...maybe not. But the general fear of injecting rookies into the lineup is...well...I'm not trying to offend anyone, but it's dumb. They have to make it eventually. You don't wait until they're a seasoned AHL veteran to decide, yeah he can handle it. After 5 years, our top prospect (who could make 15+ other teams handily) is finally ready for the bigs.
I think you're misinterpretting the fear. I don't think it's about injecting rookies into the line-up. I think it's about slotting said rookies into a key position before they have proven they are ready for it, and having them fall flat. When that happens, you're left with a massive hole and no easy way to fill it. It's pretty ugly.

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03-05-2012, 04:57 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I think you're misinterpretting the fear. I don't think it's about injecting rookies into the line-up. I think it's about slotting said rookies into a key position before they have proven they are ready for it, and having them fall flat. When that happens, you're left with a massive hole and no easy way to fill it. It's pretty ugly.
I understand that, but where are they supposed to go? Unless Boudreau instills equal minute shifts, they won't accomplish much on the third and fourth lines.

If Murray/Boudreau are smart they'll bring up Palmieri, Holland, and Schultz for some NHL play if we lose 2 more games.

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03-05-2012, 05:05 PM
  #79
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I understand that, but where are they supposed to go? Unless Boudreau instills equal minute shifts, they won't accomplish much on the third and fourth lines.

If Murray/Boudreau are smart they'll bring up Palmieri, Holland, and Schultz for some NHL play if we lose 2 more games.
Tell that to Getzlaf and Perry, who started on the 4th line. Tell that to Ryan, who did the same. They accomplished plenty on those lines, and in doing so they showed that they were ready for more responsibility, which they were then given. That's how most teams handle young players.

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03-05-2012, 05:39 PM
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Tell that to Getzlaf and Perry, who started on the 4th line. Tell that to Ryan, who did the same. They accomplished plenty on those lines, and in doing so they showed that they were ready for more responsibility, which they were then given. That's how most teams handle young players.
True. Hadn't given that much thought. In truth a rookie shouldn't be coddled by being given a top 6 spot and expecting them to run with it. They have to work for it.

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03-05-2012, 07:51 PM
  #81
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Granted, sometimes you can't afford to do that. Especially, as is the case in Anaheim, when you're a budget team. If Murray is pinching pennies, that's exactly what he might try to do. I just hope it isn't the case. The last thing we need is for our 2nd line to fall flat because Etem, or Palmieri, or both, struggle a bit in their rookie season.

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03-05-2012, 08:26 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Granted, sometimes you can't afford to do that. Especially, as is the case in Anaheim, when you're a budget team. If Murray is pinching pennies, that's exactly what he might try to do. I just hope it isn't the case. The last thing we need is for our 2nd line to fall flat because Etem, or Palmieri, or both, struggle a bit in their rookie season.
Nathan Mackinnon, Seth Jones, Hunter Shinkaruk here we come?

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03-05-2012, 10:11 PM
  #83
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Nathan Mackinnon, Seth Jones, Hunter Shinkaruk here we come?
Not winnin' for MacKinnon?

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03-05-2012, 10:44 PM
  #84
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Not winnin' for MacKinnon?
Rolls right off the tongue.

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03-06-2012, 12:54 AM
  #85
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What I'd do:

Objective number one: address 2nd line center spot. Be aggressive at the draft, and, if necessary, FA. Personally I'd go after Grabo's rights.

Let walk:
Hagman
Blake
Pelley
Ellis (unless he takes a major discount)

Sign Grabovski to 5 year 22.5 million contract (6,4.5,4.5,4.5,3)

Sign Penner to 1 year 1.5 million contract (not a big fan of this, but the lack of suitors available to play with Getz and Perry make it worth the risk IMO)

Sign backup goalie for 850k. Not sure who's available, but I think that's the max we can spend since we are going to have to eat JDD's contract in the minors.

Sign Schultz to his rookie contract 850k is my guess on $$$.

Re-sign:
Koivu (1yr, 2 million)
Selanne(1yr, 3 million) If he chooses to return, allow him all the time he wants
Parros(1yr, 700k)
Bonino(1yr, 700k)
Brookbank(1yr 825k)

Potential lineup:

Penner(1.5)-Getzlaf(6.125)-Perry(4.875)
Cogliano(2.35)-Grabovski(6.0)-Ryan(5.562)
Prospect (Palmeiri/Etem)(.900)-Koivu(2.0)-Selanne(3.0)
Beleskey(.850)-Bonino(.700)-DSP(.760)
Parros(.700)Sexton(.550)

Beauchemin(3.5)-Fowler(.900)
Sbisa(2.0)-Lubo(3.0)
Lydman(3.0)-Schultz(.850)
Brookbank(.825)

Hiller(4.0)
backup(.850)

JDD(.625)-Will be in the minors (where are the ones who gave me **** for signing him to this 1 way deal now?)

Total:55.5 million

I think this lineup is a contender personally. It also allows the prospects to earn their spot and not rush any of them. This lineup also is able to run 4 lines consistently. Would love to shed Sexton and JDD's contracts, but I honestly don't see any takers.

What I think next year's lineup will look like:

Penner(Murray type of signing)-Getzlaf-Perry
Etem/Palmeiri-Koivu-Selanne
Cogliano-Bonino-DSP
Beleskey-UFA-Parros/ufa/sexton

same defense

Hiller
UFA
JDD

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03-06-2012, 02:04 AM
  #86
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Selanne is done, this is it for him.
Ryan is going to be trade bait
Lydman is probably gone
Schultz will be in
Palmieri has to be on the roster
perhaps a run at Suter if we clear enough salary

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03-06-2012, 03:41 AM
  #87
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I'm unsure about this whole tradebait-Ryan thing. Have a feeling he can be phenomenal on the 2nd line RW-role. It just screams for a good center.

Penner-Getzlaf-Perry sounds okay, but on bad days it can be the laziest 1st line in the history of the league. I'm actually a fan of Hagman on that line. He brings some terrific energy and forecheck, and tends to show some skills once in a while.

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03-06-2012, 03:48 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 View Post
What I'd do:

Objective number one: address 2nd line center spot. Be aggressive at the draft, and, if necessary, FA. Personally I'd go after Grabo's rights.

Let walk:
Hagman
Blake
Pelley
Ellis (unless he takes a major discount)

Sign Grabovski to 5 year 22.5 million contract (6,4.5,4.5,4.5,3)

Sign Penner to 1 year 1.5 million contract (not a big fan of this, but the lack of suitors available to play with Getz and Perry make it worth the risk IMO)

Sign backup goalie for 850k. Not sure who's available, but I think that's the max we can spend since we are going to have to eat JDD's contract in the minors.

Sign Schultz to his rookie contract 850k is my guess on $$$.

Re-sign:
Koivu (1yr, 2 million)
Selanne(1yr, 3 million) If he chooses to return, allow him all the time he wants
Parros(1yr, 700k)
Bonino(1yr, 700k)
Brookbank(1yr 825k)

Potential lineup:

Penner(1.5)-Getzlaf(6.125)-Perry(4.875)
Cogliano(2.35)-Grabovski(6.0)-Ryan(5.562)
Prospect (Palmeiri/Etem)(.900)-Koivu(2.0)-Selanne(3.0)
Beleskey(.850)-Bonino(.700)-DSP(.760)
Parros(.700)Sexton(.550)

Beauchemin(3.5)-Fowler(.900)
Sbisa(2.0)-Lubo(3.0)
Lydman(3.0)-Schultz(.850)
Brookbank(.825)

Hiller(4.0)
backup(.850)

JDD(.625)-Will be in the minors (where are the ones who gave me **** for signing him to this 1 way deal now?)

Total:55.5 million

I think this lineup is a contender personally. It also allows the prospects to earn their spot and not rush any of them. This lineup also is able to run 4 lines consistently. Would love to shed Sexton and JDD's contracts, but I honestly don't see any takers.

What I think next year's lineup will look like:

Penner(Murray type of signing)-Getzlaf-Perry
Etem/Palmeiri-Koivu-Selanne
Cogliano-Bonino-DSP
Beleskey-UFA-Parros/ufa/sexton

same defense

Hiller
UFA
JDD
I see no reason in letting Blake and Hagman walk. If they are going to accept big money elsewhere, fine, let them walk. But for 1-1.5 mil apiece, they can definitely fill in roles on this team. Even if its 3rd line.

Lets assume Koivu and Selanne are gone.

Penner for 1.5 mil? I highly doubt he goes that cheap. I don't know if many teams in the league wouldn't risk 1.5 mil on a guy who could potentially put up 20-30 goals. I do like the idea of giving Penner a shot on a cheapy contract... however... I just don't see him going below 3 mil or so.

You're signing Grabovski to an odd deal... why would he start at 6 and drop to 3 over 5 years? He'll be like 33 by the time he's earning 3 mil a year. Why would it not just be an even 4.5 per year? Its not like he's on a super long deal and we are trying to sneak below the cap... Will he sign for 4.5/year? He seems like a nice enough fellow for 4.5 tho. I'm sold.

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03-06-2012, 03:49 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by quentez View Post
I'm unsure about this whole tradebait-Ryan thing. Have a feeling he can be phenomenal on the 2nd line RW-role. It just screams for a good center.

Penner-Getzlaf-Perry sounds okay, but on bad days it can be the laziest 1st line in the history of the league. I'm actually a fan of Hagman on that line. He brings some terrific energy and forecheck, and tends to show some skills once in a while.
Indeed. I only accept Penner on this team if there is a Hagman/Blake combo to outshine the work ethic of the 1st line. I want the ability to demote people/break up lines a bit.

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03-06-2012, 04:05 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by quentez View Post
I'm unsure about this whole tradebait-Ryan thing. Have a feeling he can be phenomenal on the 2nd line RW-role. It just screams for a good center.

Penner-Getzlaf-Perry sounds okay, but on bad days it can be the laziest 1st line in the history of the league. I'm actually a fan of Hagman on that line. He brings some terrific energy and forecheck, and tends to show some skills once in a while.
I think Perry and Getzlaf, moving forward are more effective with a fast, hard working player on their line. Teams figured out RPG this year, they challenge them to dump the puck in, and play outside and they take the bait. Ryan could bring back two key pieces atleast, as soon as we're eliminated the Ducks will blow this thing up.

The performance has been unacceptable under Bob Murray, 8th place, 2 missed post-seasons in all likelyhood, and one first round exit. His job should be on the line

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03-06-2012, 04:12 AM
  #91
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I think Perry and Getzlaf, moving forward are more effective with a fast, hard working player on their line. Teams figured out RPG this year, they challenge them to dump the puck in, and play outside and they take the bait. Ryan could bring back two key pieces atleast, as soon as we're eliminated the Ducks will blow this thing up.

The performance has been unacceptable under Bob Murray, 8th place, 2 missed post-seasons in all likelyhood, and one first round exit. His job should be on the line
Ryan deserves the 2nd line and a good center and winger. The guy is near the top of the league in even strength goals... I think he's in the top 5.

A second line, built around him, that can put the puck in the net at even strength would be awesome to compliment a 1st line that usually occupies the top PP minutes as well.

We aren't going to get Ryan's value back in a trade. He makes the people he plays with better.

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03-06-2012, 07:01 AM
  #92
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Sign Grabovski to 5 year 22.5 million contract (6,4.5,4.5,4.5,3)

Selanne(1yr, 3 million) If he chooses to return, allow him all the time he wants

JDD(.625)-Will be in the minors (where are the ones who gave me **** for signing him to this 1 way deal now?)
Here's one of those. I gladly - well, not gladly, because it would obviously have been better for the Ducks had he played better - admit that JDD showed close to nothing of what I had seen in him in the past. But let's see if we really can't get rid of his deal. I does look very doubtful, but we'll see about that.

I also think you are light on Grabovski and Teemu. Grabovski will make more than $4.5M outside of Toronto (), no matter when he is signed, IMO, unless it's a short- or incredibly long contract with a contender.


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03-06-2012, 07:06 AM
  #93
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Not wanting to put lots of responsibility on a rookie = fear of putting rookies into the team? Ok then. Prospects are the most overhyped thing on this board by a lot of people, it's ridiculous.

People are pencilling Palmieri, Etem and Holland or the Eastern European prospects with funny names all in our top 6. I can't see all 3 getting in, and if they are we'll be in trouble if we're relying on them to perform in those roles before even seeing them play.

Let's not forget some of our best players in our team now played bottom 6 minutes till they could prove they can play in a top 6 role. If any of the prospects PROVE they can play in the top 6 then fine, but it will be a terrible, terrible mistake if we are relying on rookies to play top 6 minutes.

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03-06-2012, 08:23 AM
  #94
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While the first half of the season was horrible, I think our waiver pickups partially helped the team turn it around and nobody can argue the team has been bad after January. While this recent play might be above average for this team, the first half was definitely below average. That's why I'd hesitate to blow this team up.

I'd like to keep Hagman in the team, if he will sign for a good price (which I think he would, especially if Selanne stays. Nick seems to like it in California). He's a perfect depth player in the way he can bring value both as a first liner and a 3rd liner.

Blake I wouldn't want to see next year, partially because of the overlap of "roles" with Hagman at a more expensive price and the decline of play.

Maybe sign Grabovski, if we can get a good price on him. Which I doubt, Anaheim probably he isn't on the top of his list and the way the FA market has had its prices rise the past few seasons, I'd be surprised if he gets a less then 5.0 contract.

I wouldn't really like to trade Ryan, since 1) we probably won't get his value back and 2) he's shown improved play (late) this season. He's a very good second-line player to have to spread the scoring and on many teams, he'd be a first line fixture easily. If and when Selanne leaves, we will need him to keep our second line lethal.

Right now I think Selanne will come back next season, par some injury. Even if he doesn't, we can keep Koivu as a good #3 center. If Selanne comes back, I think he should be slotted to the 3rd line also. We can't rely on him to do the majority of scoring anymore.

Of course it's hard to say how Etem and Palmieri will slot in to the lineup until we see the TC. But I think we definitely shouldn't expect them to shoulder a top-6 role. BB rolls the lines out more equally then RC, so even if a prospect plays on the 3rd line, he'll get enough minutes to ease into the NHL while not immediately playing against the opponents top D.

So maybe something like this:

Hagman - Getzlaf - Perry
Ryan - FA / Bonino (if no other) - Selanne / Etem / Palmieri (depending on TC)
DSP - Koivu - Palmieri / Etem / Selanne
Cogs - Pelley - Beleskey

I like this because it gives us options concerning the prospects. If one of them shines, Hagman can move down. Likewise if they fail, we can move Selanne (and possibly Beleskey) up. We'd also have depth, which we at least last season lacked.

Also, Bonino has shown a lot of skill lately and if he keeps progressing on the same way, there's definitely potential for 2C duty. Naturally free agency is and should be the first option, but if nothing is found, I'd at least want to try Bonino there during TC before putting Koivu there.

Only thing I'm afraid of next season is that if FA pickings are slim, we might have to rely more then necessarily is good on our prospects. If thinks pan out, great. If not, it might get ugly.

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03-06-2012, 08:59 AM
  #95
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Grabovski has just signed a new five year deal with Leafs. $5.5m cap hit.


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03-06-2012, 09:03 AM
  #96
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Grabovski has just signed a new five year deal with Leafs. Details not announced yet.
Well, that was to be expected. There isn't many teams that have as much or more of a need for him than the Leafs. And that easily includes the Ducks. Going to be interesting to see the number.

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03-06-2012, 09:09 AM
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So, I think that leaves Koivu and Stoll as the only centers in free agency that have spent significant time on a second line.

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03-06-2012, 09:10 AM
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If we exclude Koivu, what are we left with of 2nd line centers (without going to the FA market)?

Holland (could work with two strong wingers?)
1st round pick 2012 (which I doubt)
Some traded guy (Roy, Gagner, Kesler?)
Bonino (fits a lot better on 3rd/4th imo)

I prefer to keep Koivu.

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03-06-2012, 09:26 AM
  #99
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$5.5M for Grabovski, apparently. More than Getz/Perry for another year. Having him around at that kind of money next season would not be a good point when negotiating their next deal. (Having him in the same league is bad enough in that regard, though.) Could have taken even more in free agency. Great year to be a UFA.

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03-06-2012, 09:30 AM
  #100
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$5.5M for Grabovski, apparently. More than Getz/Perry for another year. Having him around at that kind of money next season would not be a good point when negotiating their next deal. (Having him in the same league is bad enough in that regard, though.) Could have taken even more in free agency. Great year to be a UFA.
Toronto got ripped on that one. I mean Grabo is a good player, but 5.5m good? Not too sure on that one.

But I guess that is how contracts are going to be with the cap at the level it is.

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