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Marcel Dionne says "Kopitar needs to make a decision"

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Old
03-06-2012, 07:00 PM
  #301
johnjm22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
K17 expressed SEVERAL times that he was spitballing for fun and wasn't serious about any trade involving Kopitar.
I know, that's why I wasn't being serious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
People are just talking. I think that's fair. This isn't like the Richards thread where people are getting just plain ridiculous.
There's been like 5 threads started about Kopitar in the past few weeks. People are overreacting to his mediocre play. It's like he's not appreciated, and some are eager to bash him. I think it's part human nature; people overvalue what others have, and under appreciate what they already have.

Here's some streaks from this season alone:
Zetterburg 1 goal in 23 games
M. Richards 1 goal in 30 games
Bergeron 2 goals in 17 games
Vanek 2 goals in 18 games
Giroux 1 goal in 16 games
B. Richards 3 goals in 25 games
E. Kane 3 goals in 20 games
Weiss 2 goals in 31 games
E. Staal 1 goal in 20
MSL 0 goals in 13 games, 1 goal in 14 games
Ovechkin 1 goal in 12 games
P. kane 2 goals in 20 games
Briere 0 goals in 19 games
Doan 3 goals in 23 games
J. Thornton 4 goals in 33 games
Tavares 1 goal in 15 games
M. Hossa 3 goals in 18 games
Datsyuk 1 goal in 15 games, 2 goals in 19 games
Getzlaf 1 goal in 25 games
H. Sedin 2 goals in 24 games

Good players, great players even, go through funks and even bad seasons. Remember Backstrom last year? Look at Kesler this season vs the previous season. There are many more examples.

People are just being unrealistic about Kopitar and every fan base does it. Individuals have a hard time being objective when it comes to their own players.

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03-06-2012, 07:12 PM
  #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
I know, that's why I wasn't being serious.




There's been like 5 threads started about Kopitar in the past few weeks. People are overreacting to his mediocre play. It's like he's not appreciated, and some are eager to bash him. I think it's part human nature; people overvalue what others have, and under appreciate what they already have.

Here's some streaks from this season alone:
Zetterburg 1 goal in 23 games
M. Richards 1 goal in 30 games
Bergeron 2 goals in 17 games
Vanek 2 goals in 18 games
Giroux 1 goal in 16 games
B. Richards 3 goals in 25 games
E. Kane 3 goals in 20 games
Weiss 2 goals in 31 games
E. Staal 1 goal in 20
MSL 0 goals in 13 games, 1 goal in 14 games
Ovechkin 1 goal in 12 games
P. kane 2 goals in 20 games
Briere 0 goals in 19 games
Doan 3 goals in 23 games
J. Thornton 4 goals in 33 games
Tavares 1 goal in 15 games
M. Hossa 3 goals in 18 games
Datsyuk 1 goal in 15 games, 2 goals in 19 games
Getzlaf 1 goal in 25 games
H. Sedin 2 goals in 24 games

Good players, great players even, go through funks and even bad seasons. Remember Backstrom last year? Look at Kesler this season vs the previous season. There are many more examples.

People are just being unrealistic about Kopitar and every fan base does it. Individuals have a hard time being objective when it comes to their own players.
Counter arguments are:
- They care, Kopitar doesn't
- They play the right way, they are just unlucky. Everyone has been telling Kopitar how he needs to play, but he doesn't listen.
- They try, Kopitar doesn't, he just floats.
- They use "I" in every statement they make, Kopitar talks about team too much. It means that Kopitar doesn't take responsibity, no personal accountability.
- Most of them haven't been benched for 3 minutes, like Kopitar has been. If coach says they suck, they suck.
- Dionne hasn't called them out. Dionne knows a thing or two about hockey.

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Old
03-06-2012, 07:20 PM
  #303
Jason Lewis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
I know, that's why I wasn't being serious.




There's been like 5 threads started about Kopitar in the past few weeks. People are overreacting to his mediocre play. It's like he's not appreciated, and some are eager to bash him. I think it's part human nature; people overvalue what others have, and under appreciate what they already have.

Here's some streaks from this season alone:
Zetterburg 1 goal in 23 games
M. Richards 1 goal in 30 games
Bergeron 2 goals in 17 games
Vanek 2 goals in 18 games
Giroux 1 goal in 16 games
B. Richards 3 goals in 25 games
E. Kane 3 goals in 20 games
Weiss 2 goals in 31 games
E. Staal 1 goal in 20
MSL 0 goals in 13 games, 1 goal in 14 games
Ovechkin 1 goal in 12 games
P. kane 2 goals in 20 games
Briere 0 goals in 19 games
Doan 3 goals in 23 games
J. Thornton 4 goals in 33 games
Tavares 1 goal in 15 games
M. Hossa 3 goals in 18 games
Datsyuk 1 goal in 15 games, 2 goals in 19 games
Getzlaf 1 goal in 25 games
H. Sedin 2 goals in 24 games

Good players, great players even, go through funks and even bad seasons. Remember Backstrom last year? Look at Kesler this season vs the previous season. There are many more examples.

People are just being unrealistic about Kopitar and every fan base does it. Individuals have a hard time being objective when it comes to their own players.

Did you do ANY research on this list? Seriously? You think people haven't complained about these players AT ALL?

It isn't unrealistic. It's the reality of playing the sport. People wondered if Tavares wanted to play there. A lot of people made a stink about Zetterbergs funk. Getzlaf had trade rumors and the ire of anaheim fans flying around him. Kane has had his share of questions on wether or not he wanted to play in the Peg arise....Ovechkins struggles have been well documented, covered, and talked about all season. etc, etc.

It's not unrealistic or overreacting, part of the job and the responsibility of being the top player or one of the top players for your team. You are pretending like nobody says anything about those guys, and we are just piling on Kopitar as if no one else does that with ANY of those players.

By the way I have only seen 2 threads about Kopitar. This one, and the "What's up with Kopitar?" thread which was started about a week and a half ago. Don't over exaggerate.

Also, a little more research you should do. This is one of the worst lists of comparison I have seen in a long time. Some of those players on your list are not goal scorers and never have been.

Joe Thornton averages BARELY over 20 goals and gets the majority of his points from assists.
Likewise with Brad Richards who has averaged around 22 goals over his last 5 seasons.
Henrik Sedin has only eclipsed 20 goals twice in his whole career.
Patrice Bergeron is a 50 point player and has only got over 25 goals once and averages around 20.
Giroux is also a pass first player averaging about 22 goals and over 50 assists a season.
Evander Kane is 20 years old, in his 3rd season pro and has never got over 50 points.
Eric Staal has had one of his worst seasons ever.
John Tavares is 11th in the league in scoring and on pace for a 30+ goal season
Shane Doan has already surpassed his last two season averages
Stephen Weiss is another pass first player who has only had over 20 goals twice.


What was your point with this poorly researched list? To show that pass first players, young players, aren't scoring? I could have told you that. Comparing some of these players to Kopitar is like comparing apples and giraffes.

Are you going to point out that Matt Greene only has 1 goal in 22 games for me also?


Last edited by Jason Lewis: 03-06-2012 at 07:28 PM.
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03-06-2012, 07:31 PM
  #304
johnjm22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Did you do ANY research on this list? Seriously? You think people haven't complained about these players AT ALL?

It isn't unrealistic. It's the reality of playing the sport. People wondered if Tavares wanted to play there. A lot of people made a stink about Zetterbergs funk. Getzlaf had trade rumors and the ire of anaheim fans flying around him. Kane has had his share of questions on wether or not he wanted to play in the Peg arise....Ovechkins struggles have been well documented, covered, and talked about all season. etc, etc.

It's not unrealistic or overreacting, part of the job and the responsibility of being the top player or one of the top players for your team. You are pretending like nobody says anything about those guys, and we are just piling on Kopitar as if no one else does that with ANY of those players.

By the way I have only seen 2 threads about Kopitar. This one, and the "What's up with Kopitar?" thread which was started about a week and a half ago. Don't over exaggerate.

Also, a little more research you should do. This is one of the worst lists of comparison I have seen in a long time. Some of those players on your list are not goal scorers and never have been.

Joe Thornton averages BARELY over 20 goals and gets the majority of his points from assists.
Likewise with Brad Richards who has averaged around 22 goals over his last 5 seasons.
Henrik Sedin has only eclipsed 20 goals twice in his whole career.
Patrice Bergeron is a 50 point player and has only got over 25 goals once and averages around 20.
Giroux is also a pass first player averaging about 22 goals and over 50 assists a season.
Evander Kane is 20 years old, in his 3rd season pro and has never got over 50 points.
Eric Staal has had one of his worst seasons ever.
John Tavares is 11th in the league in scoring and on pace for a 30+ goal season
Shane Doan has already surpassed his last season averages
Stephen Weiss is another pass first player who has only had over 20 goals twice.


What was your point with this poorly researched list? To show that pass first players, young players, aren't scoring? I could have told you that.

Are you going to point out that Matt Greene only has 1 goal in 22 games for me also?
Did you read my post? I clearly stated "every fan base does it."

The list is just a reference. It doesn't tell a whole story. Just about every top offensive player goes through slumps, just like Kopitar, no reason to get overly concerned.

You're basically agreeing with me for the most part (except for whether or not people are overreacting). Chill out.

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03-06-2012, 07:36 PM
  #305
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Who is bashing him? I see 99% rational discussion except for you, because you seem to think there is a witch hunt occurring.

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03-06-2012, 07:46 PM
  #306
Jason Lewis
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^^^^^^^


THIS times 1000.


People are just talking. I don't see the fault in this.

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03-06-2012, 07:51 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Richards View Post
Who is bashing him? I see 99% rational discussion except for you, because you seem to think there is a witch hunt occurring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
^^^^^^^


THIS times 1000.


People are just talking. I don't see the fault in this.
And that's how I felt about the Richards thread.

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03-06-2012, 07:57 PM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
And that's how I felt about the Richards thread.
I think this thread has started to derail like the Richards thread.

There's sure a lot of animosity in here lately.

But let's make it clear, somebody proposing a Kopitar trade isn't the same as someone calling him a 'bum' or a fan from the previous team that the player was on coming in here to bash the crap out of him.

Calling one of our players a bum is pretty darn low, like a kick in the gonads.

btw Kopitar looks good tonight. Almost beast-like.

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03-06-2012, 07:58 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
And that's how I felt about the Richards thread.
I will agree with you with that.

It got a little bit more ridiculous Herby, and JU...but it was relatively the same thing as this thread....for a while.

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03-06-2012, 08:03 PM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savemefromtears View Post
I think this thread has started to derail like the Richards thread.

There's sure a lot of animosity in here lately.

But let's make it clear, somebody proposing a Kopitar trade isn't the same as someone calling him a 'bum' or a fan from the previous team that the player was on coming in here to bash the crap out of him.

Calling one of our players a bum is pretty darn low, like a kick in the gonads.

btw Kopitar looks good tonight. Almost beast-like.
Word. He's noticeable more assertive. This is what I like to see.

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03-06-2012, 08:14 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
I will agree with you with that.

It got a little bit more ridiculous Herby, and JU...but it was relatively the same thing as this thread....for a while.
Well to be honest, this one has couple of pretty ridiculous thoughts as well... I am sure that if we start a Carter thread, there will 5 guys writing some very nasty things about him. Three of them will be "born in Philly, lived here all my life" hardcore fans, who know everything about him, from his neighbors and his personal dog trainer. Oh, and they personally know half of the Flyers organization.

I think what is creating some hostility is that most of us see both of those threads differently. I can understand people writing both positive and negative remarks about Kopitar and Richards in their threads. But I don't understand that those who start one of the threads call the other one bashing and take it almost personally.

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03-06-2012, 08:43 PM
  #312
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I posted this in a trade thread regarding Vanek but think it is somewhat relevant in regards to helping assess Kopitars true value.

It isn't perfect but it is a starting point.

I have to disagree with your premise that Kopitar is a middle of the road center. He is always in or right at the top ten in scoring among centers in the league and typically among the better of them in +/- as well.

He has done this with some less than NHL caliber wings to play with and even less talented 2nd/3rd line players to support what he was trying to accomplish as well.

Here are the past few seasons stats for centers and at the end I will include the current season as well even though the *entire* Kings team is having well below average years when it comes to scoring.

09/10

1. H Sedin 112pts +35
2. Crosby 109pts +15
3. Backstrom 101pts +37
4. Stamkos 95pts -2 *
5. BRichards 91pts -12*
6. JThornton 89pts +17
7 Kopitar 81pts +6
8. PStasny 79pts +2
9. Malkin 77pts -6*
10. Kesler 75 +1

* denotes a minus stat.

10/11

1. H Sedin 94pts +26
2. Stamkos 91pts +3
3. BRichards 77pts +1
4. EStaal 76pts -10
5. Toews 76pts +25
6. Getzlaf 76pts +14
7. Kesler 73pts +24
8. Kopitar 73pts +25
9. Ribiero 71pts -4*
10. JThornton 70pts +4

11/12

1. Malkin 81pts +12
2. Stamkos 80pts +8
3. Spezza 72pts +4
4 H Sedin 66pts +21
5. Tavares 63pts -2*
6. Elias 61pts -7*
7 Datsyuk 59pts +18
8.JThornton 59pts +15
9. EStaal 58pts -13*
10. Toews 57pts +17
(11.) Kopitar 55pts +4


So in the past three seasons including this current one where Kopitar and the entire Kings team is having a terrible season where everyone is below average in scoring Kopitar is still right there within reach of the top ten among centers yet again with 17 games left to play.

My money is on him (AK) to finish in the top ten among centers in scoring along with being a plus player. He has had to carry the team from time to time and again, no one is saying that he has had a great season but even during a terrible season for AK he is still right there among the best ten centers in the game.

Even then it seems like you are completely over ranking Vanek (one of my favorite players) in regards to his trade value for Kopitar.

Over the past 3 seasons (including this one) Vanek has produced the following.

9/10

22nd overall among LW's in scoring with 53 pts
13th overall in total goals scored among LW's w/28.
33rd overall in assists among LW's with 25.
18th among LW's in +/- among LW's with +9

10/11

5th overall in scoring among LW's with 73pts.
6th in goals scored among LW's w/32.
6th in assists among LW's with 41.
57th in +/- with a +2

11/12

18th among LW's in scoring with 47pts.
19th in goals among LW's with 22.
22nd among LW's in assists with 25.
147th among LW's in +/- w -6.


Now I am not saying that the stats are complete proof that Vanek isn't one of the best LW's in game because we all know that simply isn't the truth but, it does show that he isn't consistently among the top 8 in the game like Kopitar is at center.

More to the point would be this, Kopitar at $6.4m per and having just recently turned 24 is a much better deal and producer in every area for the Kings then Vanek is at this point.

Like I said, Vanek is one of my favorite players and I would love to have him on the Kings but there would have to be allot added to him for me to move Kopitar for him. Not Pommer but something significant for certain.

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03-06-2012, 11:53 PM
  #313
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As someone in the PGT said, Kopitar had a terrible game. One assist, -1... terrible. If at least he would have had... you know, a penalty. Come on, penalty minutes are worth fantasy points. He doesn't want to be useful. I understand that he can't score goals at will. But he CAN get as many penalty minutes as he likes.

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03-07-2012, 12:30 AM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
As someone in the PGT said, Kopitar had a terrible game. One assist, -1... terrible. If at least he would have had... you know, a penalty. Come on, penalty minutes are worth fantasy points. He doesn't want to be useful. I understand that he can't score goals at will. But he CAN get as many penalty minutes as he likes.
Now you are just putting words into people's post, Can you please at least qoute the person or point to the post number ?

I hate when people make up stuff. I don't recall anyone saying kopitar had a terrible game.

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03-07-2012, 12:34 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Now you are just putting words into people's post, Can you please at least qoute the person or point to the post number ?

I hate when people make up stuff. I don't recall anyone saying kopitar had a terrible game.
Ok, then I'm saying that he had a terrible game. His fantasy value was what? I don't know much about these things, but his fantasy value was close to zero, wasn't it? That's pretty meh.

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03-07-2012, 12:41 AM
  #316
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Ok, then I'm saying that he had a terrible game. His fantasy value was what? I don't know much about these things, but his fantasy value was close to zero, wasn't it? That's pretty meh.
He took the puck to the net, his wrap around resulted in one of the goals (the game winner), and he led the team in shots ffs.

Kopitar played absolutely fine. He was -1 because of Quick's soft goals tonight, nothing else.

Didn't you say he looked good in the other thread? I'm confused.

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03-07-2012, 12:43 AM
  #317
Jason Lewis
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Now you are just putting words into people's post, Can you please at least qoute the person or point to the post number ?

I hate when people make up stuff. I don't recall anyone saying kopitar had a terrible game.
It was me. I never said anything about Kopitar having a bad game. I said he had a decent game and I liked his shot mentality. I liked the direction he was taking.


I dunno why I even try.....people are freaking ridiculous on here....


Last edited by Jason Lewis: 03-07-2012 at 12:51 AM.
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03-07-2012, 01:23 AM
  #318
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Youtube Kopitars first career goal. Still waiting for him to attempt something like that this season.

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03-07-2012, 05:59 AM
  #319
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Youtube Kopitars first career goal. Still waiting for him to attempt something like that this season.
He attempted it just a few games ago. He got pushed into the post and called for goalie interference despite never making contact with the goalie. Most of the time defensemen aren't just going to stand there and get beat like Pronger did.

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03-07-2012, 09:31 AM
  #320
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Good article, though I chuckled at the dresription of Sundin as "a nice, two-way center." He's not Rich Peverley, he scored 500+ goals and 1,300+ points.

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03-07-2012, 09:48 AM
  #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
Ok, then I'm saying that he had a terrible game. His fantasy value was what? I don't know much about these things, but his fantasy value was close to zero, wasn't it? That's pretty meh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
I am sorry but this game will be a measurement stick for me. I want to know who actually watches games, every shift, every pass, every defensive coverage. Kopitar's stats in this game don't mean anything.

Kopitar tonight was one of the best players on ice.

I would really appreciate everyone who disagrees with that statement, to tell me so. It doesn't mean that I will in any way mock you in the future, but it will help me see who is watching games the same way I do. To be honest I will not expect anything besides score sheet analysis from that person in the future. Which is not that bad, we all want the same thing in the end. It's the same as I don't expect my mom to know much about sports. She knows couple of names and that's enough for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
As someone in the PGT said, Kopitar had a terrible game. One assist, -1... terrible. If at least he would have had... you know, a penalty. Come on, penalty minutes are worth fantasy points. He doesn't want to be useful. I understand that he can't score goals at will. But he CAN get as many penalty minutes as he likes.
This may all be written in English, but my god man.. I don't know if you're trying to be sarcastic and failing miserably, can't make up your mind or you're just really bad at conveying your opinions, but it's no wonder people find your posts baffling.

Pick a thought and roll with it.

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03-07-2012, 09:52 AM
  #322
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Good article, though I chuckled at the dresription of Sundin as "a nice, two-way center." He's not Rich Peverley, he scored 500+ goals and 1,300+ points.
Well I think that's the point. Marcel was saying Anze has to decide which type of HOF player he wants to be. That's why I chuckle at The Mayor for even calling it "criticism." #TalentedHockeyPlayerProblems

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03-07-2012, 05:04 PM
  #323
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so maybe we should dump kopi and sign gasper instead? ...at least he has 22 goals so far this season..

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