So if Glendale closed the police department to give the Coyotes eleventy squillion dollars, and Winnipeg had a deal to give one penny to True North, it would still be exactly the same, right?
taking an argument to the absurd doesn't make much a of a point.....
i agree that $25m is more than $11m if thats what justifies it in your eyes.
taking an argument to the absurd doesn't make much a of a point.....
i agree that $25m is more than $11m if thats what justifies it in your eyes.
our deal is for 20 years...theirs isnt.
again...totally support it.
It makes the point quite effectively that the two situations are not comparable beyond pedantic, shallow similarities. Don't forget they also built the arena completely with public money in Glendale. Here it was, what, 33 percent? In any honest evaluation, Glendale is paying far, far more for much, much less benefit.
i dont really see the difference....just because the coyotes are losing money it is called covering losses....in winnipeg it is supplementing revenues....its still public money.
gaming money may not come from general revenues but it is money that the provincial government has that is directed from other things to the Jets.
again...i totally support it....but we have to call a spade a spade.
where GSC2K2 when you need him?
How do you not see the difference? Think about it like this:
You own a lemonade stand. It costs you $20 to operate.
A) You pay your parents 50% of the lemonade you sell. You then receive that money back. You sell $100 in lemonade.
B) You do not sell any lemonade. You are now $20 in the hole. Your parents pay you $20 so that you are at a net $0 and can continue operating the lemonade stand.
Do you see the difference now? In case A, you are 'paying money' based on the amount you sell, and then receiving that money back. If you sold $1000, you'd pay and $500 and then get that $500 back. If you sold $10, you'd pay $5 and only get $5 back. You are refunded money you pay.
In Case B, you are receiving money without actually selling any lemonade.
In Case A, your parents have a net gain of 0. They receive money and then give you that money back.
In Case B, your parents have a net loss of $20. They do not receive any money from you, but still give you $20.
Note: This is obviously a simplified version regarding the actual situation in phoenix, and there are plenty of lawyers that have and will debate the legality of the glendale bonds etc... but the idea is the same.
How do you not see the difference? Think about it like this:
You own a lemonade stand. It costs you $20 to operate.
A) You pay your parents 50% of the lemonade you sell. You then receive that money back. You sell $100 in lemonade.
B) You do not sell any lemonade. You are now $20 in the hole. Your parents pay you $20 so that you are at a net $0 and can continue operating the lemonade stand.
Do you see the difference now? In case A, you are 'paying money' based on the amount you sell, and then receiving that money back. If you sold $1000, you'd pay and $500 and then get that $500 back. If you sold $10, you'd pay $5 and only get $5 back. You are refunded money you pay.
In Case B, you are receiving money without actually selling any lemonade.
In Case A, your parents have a net gain of 0. They receive money and then give you that money back.
In Case B, your parents have a net loss of $20. They do not receive any money from you, but still give you $20.
Note: This is obviously a simplified version regarding the actual situation in phoenix, and there are plenty of lawyers that have and will debate the legality of the glendale bonds etc... but the idea is the same.
Are you implying that his only business experience is in operating a lemonade stand?
hundreds of millions that thomson is spending in the shed?......huh?.....what are you talking about?....
what money does the city get from taxes on players and coaches?......most of them live in rental properties....has even one built a new house that was not their previously?....so the City gets zero from the jets players.....the federal government gets some income tax as does the province.
public money is public money....i dont see a difference between this and glendale....its just a different shade of grey.
i agree that it is a great investment, but make no mistake it is a government handout.
I'm sorry, do you not know about the SHED? How can you possibly make this argument if you don't even know the facts.
There is going to be hundreds of millions of dollars spent on Winnipeg's downtown, and it is because of the Jets.
i dont really see the difference....just because the coyotes are losing money it is called covering losses....in winnipeg it is supplementing revenues....its still public money.
gaming money may not come from general revenues but it is money that the provincial government has that is directed from other things to the Jets.
again...i totally support it....it has done great things for the city....but we have to call a spade a spade....i would guess that most here oppose the human right museum for the same reasons.
i dont see a bias in the article....just because he isnt skewing it to be a cheerleader story....it would be interesting to know if it is actually a good financial investment ...discounting things like quality of life, public image etc....most studies show that pro sports franchises do not generate new revenue in a community.
As I have mentioned earlier IMO this is a non issue. A 4 million cap on 90 busy VLT's approx works out to the standard site-holder cut of 20%, as they will likely generate somewhere in the $ 15-20 million range (look to a previous post for the math). Politically the government is on record as holding the line on the total # of machines. Something like this allows them to add 90 new machines to their inventory. On top of this the province will be replacing all the VLT machines across the province with a new generation likely in the fall sometime. My guess is this will co-inside nicely with the start of next Jets season. Anyone who doesn't believe the Provincial gov will make out like bandits isn't paying attention to where the real money is...Gambling. The new sports bar at City place will pack them in, making everyone even more money. The municipal gov I'm sure will be compensated adequately by the the Provincial gov. Everyone wins.
As I have mentioned earlier IMO this is a non issue. A 4 million cap on 90 busy VLT's approx works out to the standard site-holder cut of 20%, as they will likely generate somewhere in the $ 15-20 million range (look to a previous post for the math). Politically the government is on record as holding the line on the total # of machines. Something like this allows them to add 90 new machines to their inventory. On top of this the province will be replacing all the VLT machines across the province with a new generation likely in the fall sometime. My guess is this will co-inside nicely with the start of next Jets season. Anyone who doesn't believe the Provincial gov will make out like bandits isn't paying attention to where the real money is...Gambling. The new sports bar at City place will pack them in, making everyone even more money. The municipal gov I'm sure will be compensated adequately by the the Provincial gov. Everyone wins.
So what you're saying is that TN is stealing money from Winnipeg taxpayers?
So what you're saying is that TN is stealing money from Winnipeg taxpayers?
Only if you put your hard earned money in the machines. On average cost of play, an afternoon on the machines playing at max will cost approx the same as a new Jets Jersey. It all depends on what you like more. Personally I need to get a new road (white) Wheeler jersey to match my home Bogosian jersey.
funny reaction to this article....its like the return of the jets days....print a factual article that isn't cheerleading and everyone jumps on the author calling it one sided.
obviously this is not the best forum for a balanced discussion on the subject...i imagine that if the word true north was changed to motorcoach industries or some other private company the comments would be different....if the words were canadian museum for human rights there would be 100 comments on what a waste of government money it is.
the point that people are making about the money the jets are generating pays back the handout, is not necessarily valid.....it is very debatable that a sports franchise brings new money into a market....if they do, it is negligible.....nothing like the hundreds of millions claimed.....there is very little new money coming into manitoba because of the jets.......the vast majority of the money being spent on the Jets would have been spent in this community were they not here....and that money would have been taxed and part of government revenues.....
the suggestion that the money given to TNSE in property tax is not recouped in other ways is completely false.....the only source of revenue the City has is property tax.
40% of our provincial budget comes from handouts from other provinces....we all love the Jets but is it fair to give a billionaire owner millions of dollars every year to pay millionaire players when we cant come close to paying for it ourselves?...obviously everyone here will say yes but it is a fair question to ask.
personally, i have no issues with taxes paying for quality of life amenities beyond health care and roads.....i also very much support the human rights museum for the same reasons i support public financing the Jets....optimism in a city is an important driver of growth...
where i do have a problem is the City handing true north $6m of our money to build a privately owned parkade in their new development...something only they will reap the profit from.....that i dont get.....as well, the $20m that we all gave them to build the iceplex makes little sense to me....why should we collectively pay for a private business to build buildings that only they will profit from?
a lot of us Winnipeggers have been looking down our noses at glendale for the last two years because of their government subsidy for the coyotes.....well, we should be careful of calling out a black pot when we are a kettle ourselves.....i actually think the numbers presented are low...TNSE has been getting $3m a year from tavern since it was built...the new casino money will be on top of that.
there are lots of reasons to support government funding for an NHL team in a city that is the smallest market in north american pro sports by a factor of 50% (i include milwaukee in green bays market).....but we should perhaps be a little less cocky with the plight of franchises in other markets that may not be getting 15% of their operating costs handed to them on a platter.
Great Post Pete!
Especially the bolded. I've thought this as well. Too often I hear fans of various sports teams across North America justify the use of taxpayers' dollars for arenas, stadiums, subsidizing teams, etc by stating it brings tens of millions, hundred of millions, even billions of dollars in revenue to their communities.
It's simply not the case
Really all it does is shift money from other areas of said community to the area in which the sports facility resides. So while it's great that businesses like 4-Play, Tavern United and other bars opening up near the arena will see a nice increase in their business, in reality all it's doing is taking business away from other restaurants in and around the city. It's not like the Jets came back and people decided to go to the bars and restaurants more often. Although, if they did it means they would have to cutback elsewhere on their entertainment budget, like the theatre for example.
Sure, we'll get the odd out-of-towner like Air Shark who wouldn't have come to our fair city otherwise, but those people are so few and far between that their impact on the local economy is negligible.
Millionaires paying their taxes in this province also doesn't compensate for the handouts. The money people spend for things like tickets, concessions and souvenirs to pay for these players' salaries would have gone to various businesses had the Jets not existed. Those businesses -let's say restaurants and theatres as two examples -in turn, would have had to hire more employees due to the increase in demand for their product. Guess what. The additional employees they hire pay taxes just like the players. So in reality, the province is no further ahead, at least on a tax-revenue basis, than if these NHL players were never in our province in the first place.
Now don't get me wrong. I love having the Jets back in the province. It's a quality of life issue. Another entertainment option for the masses in the city just like the Zoo, the RWB, the museums. YOu can sell the subsidies to the public like that (although I'm not crazy over the amount of subsidies the Jets are getting). Just don't try and sell it to me as some sort of revenue booster for the province, because it ain't.
Lastly, I don't understand the hate for Bartley Kives. He's a good reporter/columnist. Much better than the likes of Lawless. And balanced as well. All he did in that article was state the numbers. Simple. Didn't express an opinion or say anything outlandish. Guess some people have trouble with that.
I think as long as the city isn't loosing, this should be fine. I know they could be making more, but I think there is a real fear to not repeating mistakes of the past, and they want to give TN a good opportunity to be sustainable in all economic conditions. I think the best part of the Jets being back, as far as municipal income is concerned, is the increased desire to live in Winnipeg, and eventually downtown.
Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 03-04-2012 at 10:37 PM.
Reason: not neccessary
In my OPINION, the purpose of this article wasn't to inform the public as much as it was to cater to those that are looking for reasons to protest the NHL in Manitoba. However, I do feel that things have changed somewhat in the mentality department since 1996, and you will likely hear less *****ing and moaning about a minimal amount of tax dollars being placed into the team vs. the LONG TERM benefits that will arise out of having the Jets in Winnipeg, which is a very good thing, in my OPINION.
I'd be more worried about the Bombers new stadium and what that will cost taxpayers down the road if I were the article author. I hear it's creeping over two hundred million.
I'd be more worried about the Bombers new stadium and what that will cost taxpayers down the road if I were the article author. I hear it's creeping over two hundred million.
The free press has been commenting on the stadium quite a bit recently.
hundreds of millions that thomson is spending in the shed?......huh?.....what are you talking about?....
what money does the city get from taxes on players and coaches?......most of them live in rental properties....has even one built a new house that was not their previously?....so the City gets zero from the jets players.....the federal government gets some income tax as does the province.
public money is public money....i dont see a difference between this and glendale....its just a different shade of grey.
i agree that it is a great investment, but make no mistake it is a government handout.
I see you have time on your hands since the Coyotes are no longer moving to Winnipeg.
What exactly are you trying to prove with your original post? You state that the government aid is "a great investment"...clearly you have an issue with what is being provided by the government. So be it.
GSC is gone - along with his ability to twist numbers/truth...don't be looking for his support any time soon.
Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 03-05-2012 at 12:56 AM.
Reason: not neccessary
the mooseplex is a hockey rink, not a multi-use facility.....it is privately owned and operated by true north who make 100% of the profit from it.....and you and me paid to build it for them.
It's not multi-use, true. But it is a hockey rink and (assuming it's the same as the SensPlex here in Ottawa) it's used by more than just the Jets - minor hockey teams, public skating, whatever.
Would you rather the city pays money to build more rinks to satisfy the demand for ice time?
Look at it as subsidizing a private enterprise to provide a public service. This happens all the time, not just in sports. Almost any city service has a private sector component to it.
The city and province sunk a lot more money into Jets 1.0 on a yearly basis than this. The only way they could have saved the team would have been to completely fund a new arena and own the team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthMonty
If only we (meaning the collective Province, City and taxpayers) had been willing to extend that much more assistance to Jets 1.0, maybe we wouldnt have had the Lost Years (1996 - 2011).
Reading comprehension 101, good sir ! I am fully aware that the Province sunk about $25mm per year into the Jets 1.0 abyss; my point was that maybe another $7mm more, and the team wouldn't have relocated.
I'm kind of sick of the Free Press. Too many "articles" lately that are written with half the information presented with the sole purpose of garnering page hits with message board arguments amongst its readers. Its sad what modern day journalism has become.
Reading comprehension 101, good sir ! I am fully aware that the Province sunk about $25mm per year into the Jets 1.0 abyss; my point was that maybe another $7mm more, and the team wouldn't have relocated.
Warning: reading posts this long can lead to drossiness or fatigue….please consult your physicians if symptoms persist more than 24 hours
This is a healthy debate and I for one don't have an issue with the article. I enjoy full disclosure on any topic so let’s shine the flashlight and have a look. For my money Kives has done a nice job of not flaming the topic but reporting what "the deal" is. The only complaint all be it mild was from Colin Craig from the Canadian taxpayers association who Kives quoted.
So let’s take a bit of a look at the history of this development and then I can get into how I feel philosophically
TNSE built the MTS centre in 2005 for $133.5 million dollars of which 70% ($93 million) was privately funded by TNSE and The Government of Canada, The Province of Manitoba and The City of Winnipeg were to contribute about 30% or $40.5 million.
So lets start with this back drop and get our heads around "the project". Although the government "s" ponied up $40 million for this facility back in 2005 one has to compare this investment to what other governments were and are spending to keep and attract sports teams........what is the bomber stadium going to cost the tax payers. Remember the old arena was probably going to have been replaced anyways at some point so I believe this deal was a wet dream as far as governments go. When this deal was struck there were certain additional incentives to the TNSE package like exclusivity for concerts above 2000 in attendance. A break on property taxes because this was designated a recreational facility so TNSE still paid property taxes to the city but it was only 20% of what it would normally be (more on this later). In addition to this there was gaming revenue from the Tavern VLT's to sweeten the pot. This was all a matter of public record and an above board deal.
Fast forward to this past spring and the ratcheting up of the deal. obviously the provincial government and city of Winnipeg felt bringing an NHL team back to Winnipeg would be good for our province and the city and they were prepared to put their money where their mouth was. The province in the form of Manitoba lotteries struck a 20 year deal to increase the annual revenue split to TNSE to be a capped at $4 million a year on the gaming revenues from Tavern and the new facility in City Place. On top of this the city agreed to waive (in the form of collecting and refunding) the regressive Entertainment tax on the Jets tickets ($5.8 Million).....as Sam Katz said this is money we wouldn't be collecting anyways if the Jets didn't come back. On top of that I think this entertainment tax is a Winnipeg only thing if I recall correctly so there is debate on whether this should exist or not anyways.
how am I doing so far (feel free to correct me)
To sum it up it appears TNSE spent 70% on the MTS centre $93 million then spent an additional estimated $170 million to acquire the Atlanta thrashers so they were into this deal to bring the NHL back to Winnipeg and build a downtown arena for $263 million and the government’s" were into it for $40.5 million plus sweeteners. Just off the top of my head this is one of the most lopsided sports and arena deals I am familiar with in North America lately.......Canadian, Manitoba, and Winnipeg Tax payers comparatively speaking in the world of pro sports are making off like bandits on this one IMHO
now lets get down to the so called tax breaks or incentives for Billionaires to Millionaires debate. I will use a business I am more familiar with in the development world to illustrate my point. Let’s take a normal shopping mall like Polo Park or St Vital and how they treat anchor tenants vs. the everyday tenant. Anchor Tenants ‘contribute’ to CAM (common area Maintenance) & Taxes (that go to the city). Contribution varies and depends how badly the mall wants these tenants. The theory is the ‘anchor tenants’ bring traffic to the mall thus get a break on their occupancy costs. Smaller tenants like Foot locker, food court, Jewelry stores, clothing shops etc make up the difference.
In all mall leases (for the small tenants) they have a provision for Anchor Tenant (typically over 15,000 – 25,000 sf) that excludes these tenancies from contributing to CAM & Taxes. Instead the lease allows for a contribution from the anchor tenants that is then applied to the CAM & Tax expense. The bad landlords attempt to double dip and get the full CAM & Tax paid by the small guys and pocket the contribution of the Anchor Tenants.
Translation Sam Walton in St Vital probably pays zero taxes to the city of Winnipeg while all the little tenants pay Sam's share.
I look at MTS centre and the Jets as the mother of all downtown anchor tenants. To me it makes complete sense that they are treated as such. If things work out swimmingly then they will be the catalyst to the SHED development which will be a major step forward for our downtown. this will drive development which will drive overall revenues to the city's tax base.
I can tell you I am a tenant in Mall’s across Canada and will have two businesses in the SHED when all is said and done and I far prefer the deal I have in the SHED as far as who pays what taxes.
And on Governments picking winners and losers and funding businesses I can tell you that happens all the time. My business is roughly 50 times larger than 2 friends of mine that are in the manufacturing sector and I employ over 100 x the work force yet the amount of funding they get from the government for R & D credits and assistance for workers is significantly higher "net" than what I get which is zero…..the government does have lots of programs to assist depending on what type of business sector you are in.
As a businessman even if I was a non hockey fan I would be thrilled with the deal our government has cut with TNSE. I can tell you TNSE is unapologetic about the deal and on top of that the people I know that are working on this deal for the government are thrilled. A $4 million dollar a year annual insurance policy to keep the NHL in town that they believe will be returned many times over by growth of revenue
I also don't buy the argument for a second that since Thomson is a billionaire he doesn't need the money....rubbish that has nothing to do with it....this, like any business deal will be treated as a standalone entity by its principles (investors) and the numbers have to work or they would have kept the Moose in place. My guess is that this top up will ensure the return on capital investment on this venture is within the margin of acceptable. Cash on Cash.....Return on investment. Nobody that I know goes green light on a deal unless the business plan supports it.
To summarize I believe the article was just fine and dandy, there is no doubt when some people read it they will be offended but when I read it i think, ”really that’s all we are spending”???? some drop in the bucket VLT revenue and we are giving back tax entertainment dollars we shouldn't be collecting anyways.....that beats the hell out of the $300 to $400 million the taxpayers will be investing in Minneapolis for a new Football stadium that gets used 20 times a year.
Hey and no matter what this ship has sailed Jets fans.....the article gets written and there is next to zero fan fare outside this website so really its kind of a non story....the deal is done its just a football that is getting kicked around the yard a bit on a slow news day.....not like the old 1.0 days when were tying to get 100% or an arena deal funded to save out team
Warning: reading posts this long can lead to drossiness or fatigue….please consult your physicians if symptoms persist more than 24 hours
This is a healthy debate and I for one don't have an issue with the article....
Hey and no matter what this ship has sailed Jets fans.....the article gets written and there is next to zero fan fare outside this website so really its kind of a non story....the deal is done its just a football that is getting kicked around the yard a bit on a slow news day.....not like the old 1.0 days when were tying to get 100% or an arena deal funded to save out team
one man’s opinion
Excellent post ps241! Thanks for the info!!
It just shows that although people like to shine a spotlight on stuff like the Jets since it's so high profile, this is straight business deals done as any other business deal in Manitoba/Canada/anywhere, but since it's the Jets people have to freak out about "subsidizing" billionaires. Everybody in this deal, including the government, is making out ahead on this. (Just look at this post and KingBogo's numbers for one thing for people pointing that out at very least). Can't believe some people are upset about this, it's not like the Jets are really getting special treatment just based on being a sports team.
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2012 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS LA KINGS!!! GO JETS GO!
To summarize I believe the article was just fine and dandy
It wasn't really all that big of a deal, but it is par for the course for the WFP and you could tell they were hoping to generate controversy with the bits of information they chose to give. I agree, the deal True North offered to this city was of excellent value, very fair and considerate, especially in comparison to other owners in other cities.
How do you not see the difference? Think about it like this:
You own a lemonade stand. It costs you $20 to operate.
A) You pay your parents 50% of the lemonade you sell. You then receive that money back. You sell $100 in lemonade.
B) You do not sell any lemonade. You are now $20 in the hole. Your parents pay you $20 so that you are at a net $0 and can continue operating the lemonade stand.
Do you see the difference now? In case A, you are 'paying money' based on the amount you sell, and then receiving that money back. If you sold $1000, you'd pay and $500 and then get that $500 back. If you sold $10, you'd pay $5 and only get $5 back. You are refunded money you pay.
In Case B, you are receiving money without actually selling any lemonade.
In Case A, your parents have a net gain of 0. They receive money and then give you that money back.
In Case B, your parents have a net loss of $20. They do not receive any money from you, but still give you $20.
Note: This is obviously a simplified version regarding the actual situation in phoenix, and there are plenty of lawyers that have and will debate the legality of the glendale bonds etc... but the idea is the same.
Excellent post. Tax incentives are a present in all businesses I don't see why the fact that being a pro sports team makes it worse than a company such as motor. Coach and new flyer that also I believe receive subsidies in some form. Subsidies exist to get people and businesses into the area and to keep them here. The reason for that is obvious, it creates jobs which intern increases the taxbase, which leads to more tax revenue.
This isn't Glendale where libraries may close, a court house is half built and government is throwing money at a hockey team the community is not invested in.
This is good business by government and private enterprise.
Friendly ManiBROba
Great Post Pete!
of dollars in revenue to their communities. 
! I am fully aware that the Province sunk about $25mm per year into the Jets 1.0 abyss; my point was that maybe another $7mm more, and the team wouldn't have relocated.
Thanks for the info!!
