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No Suspension for Kronwall

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Old
03-07-2012, 01:42 PM
  #26
achdumeingute
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Originally Posted by Rick Deckard View Post
I agree with you that there isn't a bias, but you can't compare it to the Richards hit, since when the rules were changed and the suspensions are now handed out by Shanahan not Campbell.
Which is why i said it was a few years ago.

If there was a bias he would be suspended. Players like downie, Rinaldo, Cooke ect always don't get the benefit of the doubt because of prior actions...that's the "bias".

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03-07-2012, 01:47 PM
  #27
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Good it Shouldn't have been suspension.

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03-07-2012, 01:49 PM
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Back in the day you didn't have to fight after a clean hit. I am happy that Kronwall didn't fight after, he knew it was a clean hit and knew he didn't have to fight someone because of it. There is no reason people should need to fight after a clean hit at all. IMO people who initiate a fight after a clean hit should get a double minor for their stupidity.

So happy that no suspension happneded, as that was a perfectly clean hit, the onus is on Voracek to not put himself in that position. He knew where Kronwall was and knows what he can do yet still put his head down and he admits so.
Absolute rubbish. You almost always had to answer the bell if you delivered a huge hit like that. That's one of the reasons why there weren't as many of those huge hits back then in the first place.

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03-07-2012, 01:51 PM
  #29
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There were 2 things about the hit that I disliked...

1.) Refs letting play continue.

2.) Flyers not responding. If Kronwell won't fight, fine. I line up Rinaldo or Hartnell against Zetterberg after we go up 3-1. It was a mostly clean/legal hit, but you still need to say to the other team that they aren't going to take liberties like that without consequences. Instigator or not, sometimes it builds more team morale to stand up for your guys. Times like that when we REALLY miss Pronger.

EDIT: Couple weeks back, Stuart made a clean hit on Shattenkirk. Stewart jumped the boards and went right after Stuart. Stewart got the instigator, Stuart answered the bell and both team played a solid, tough game from that point on.

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Old
03-07-2012, 01:54 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Mike Richards nailed booth a few years back with an elbow...no suspension. I know that was a few years ago, but there isn't some bias...

IMO keep your arms down and you are fine with hits...Elbows and forearms are what get you in trouble.
Actually, Richards didn't do that. No elbow was involved. Went in to hit an unsuspecting player with their head down and connected with their head using his shoulder. I recall that hit was a big part of the reason they began changing the rules.

Kronwall's hit on Voracek, IMO, is very similar. I've been under the impression that the Richards hit would be suspendable nowadays, so I assumed the Kronwall hit would be as well...it's like the Richards hit, which was the kind of thing the NHL said they wanted to eliminate. I no longer have any idea what the NHL is trying to do or prove. Lots of mixed signals.

Edit: If the NHL suspends the next player to hit someone in the head with their shoulder when they have their head down, get ready for the poopstorm. The "Shanahan-Detroit" conspiracy theories will go flying, like the "Cambell-Boston" stuff.

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Old
03-07-2012, 01:57 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
2.) Flyers not responding.
They did and they took some penalties for it and Jagr got hurt in the wash.

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03-07-2012, 01:58 PM
  #32
Kevin Danko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Actually, Richards didn't do that. No elbow was involved. Went in to hit an unsuspecting player with their head down and connecting with their head with his shoulder. I recall that hit was a big part of the reason they began changing the rules.

Kronwall's hit on Voracek, IMO, is very similar. I've been under the impression that the Richards hit would be suspendable nowadays, so I assumed the Kronwall hit would be as well...it's like the Richards hit, which was the kind of thing the NHL said they wanted to eliminate. I no longer have any idea what the NHL is trying to do or prove. Lots of mixed signals.
the Richards hit had Richards flying across the ice and just nail the guy with his shoulder...

Kronwall was going in a forward motion and Voracek was moving forward, it happened so quick that I don't think there similar.

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03-07-2012, 02:01 PM
  #33
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I'm just gonna repost what I did in the thread on the main board:

I'm conflicted about this, having played the game, my gut says that if you put yourself in the position Voracek did, you deserve to get smoked, and that Kronwall threw about as text book a shoulder check as there is.

As someone who has spent the last several years listening to all the leagues talk about headshots and concussions and protecting players however, I think they're a bunch of liars and hypocrites. They're hasn't been a more blatantly dangerous and illegal headshot that I can readily recall. Apparently Rule 48 should actually read:
Quote:
48.1 Illegal Check to the Head – A hit resulting in contact with an opponent's head where the head is targeted and the principal point of contact is not permitted. However, in determining whether such a hit should have been permitted, the circumstances of the hit, including whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit or [if we really like the hit], can be considered.
Because there is nothing in that rule the way it's written and has been interpreted to this point that defends this hit.

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03-07-2012, 02:02 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by kevindank View Post
I think your a little off base, but ill say this, the Richards hit had Richards flying across the ice and just nail the guy with his shoulder...

Kronwall was going in a forward motion and Voracek was moving forward, it happened so quick that I don't think there similar.
The Richards hit happened pretty quickly.

The fact of the matter is this: The NHL has spent the last two years trying to dispel the notion that the player on the receiving end of the hit is at fault for being unaware of his surroundings. They have been trying to place more responsibility on the hitter in those circumstances.

This completely contradicts that. I'd just like to know what exactly is a legal hit. Are we going by 2010 standards again? What is the deal?

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03-07-2012, 02:04 PM
  #35
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Kronwall didn't do anything wrong. Voracek was looking for the puck and he should have been aware that there was a defenseman coming in. Can't blame Kronwall for that. On top of that, people who suggest that Kronwall needed to fight afterwards need to check their head. He didn't do anything wrong. The whole idea that you need to fight after a big hit is exactly what's wrong with the game and some of it's fans. Kronwall hit Voracek with a clean hit. End of story. This was no worse than when Brian Campbell caught RJ Umberger with his head down and lowered the boom. Good, clean hits.

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03-07-2012, 02:06 PM
  #36
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Refreshing to see so many flyers fans who actually think it was clean. You see a hit like that and it makes you cringe, hopefully JV is ok which it sounds like he is so far.

Theres really no other play Kronwall can make there without taking hitting out of the game because the position Voracek put himself into.

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03-07-2012, 02:09 PM
  #37
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I don't hate the hit, but the leagues interpretation here is utter ********. They're completely contradicting everything they've said the past several years about headshots. Totally disregarding the rules as written.

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03-07-2012, 02:11 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGalt View Post
I don't hate the hit, but the leagues interpretation here is utter ********. They're completely contradicting everything they've said the past several years about headshots. Totally disregarding the rules as written.
This is my objection as well.

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03-07-2012, 02:21 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Mike Richards nailed booth a few years back with an elbow...no suspension. I know that was a few years ago, but there isn't some bias...

IMO keep your arms down and you are fine with hits...Elbows and forearms are what get you in trouble.
Yeah, but Richards at least get a 5 minute major and and a game misconduct for that hit. There was no penalty at all called on the Kronwall hit.

A borderline hit like that in real time when the player hit is injured almost ALWAYS draws at least a minor penalty....except for last night!

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03-07-2012, 02:24 PM
  #40
achdumeingute
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Originally Posted by JGalt View Post
I'm just gonna repost what I did in the thread on the main board:

I'm conflicted about this, having played the game, my gut says that if you put yourself in the position Voracek did, you deserve to get smoked, and that Kronwall threw about as text book a shoulder check as there is.

As someone who has spent the last several years listening to all the leagues talk about headshots and concussions and protecting players however, I think they're a bunch of liars and hypocrites. They're hasn't been a more blatantly dangerous and illegal headshot that I can readily recall. Apparently Rule 48 should actually read:


Because there is nothing in that rule the way it's written and has been interpreted to this point that defends this hit.
The defense is "targeted" and the victims lack of protecting himself.

Kronwall is shoulder to chest if voracek just stands up. That's not a targeted head shot.

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03-07-2012, 02:25 PM
  #41
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I'm not calling for a suspension.

But, I am nowhere near comprehension of discipline in this league. The principal point of contact is the head and there was more than enough time to avoid making the hit. I have seen more than one video explanation of previous hits wherein it is stated that regardless of the position the player puts himself in, the offending player has some responsibility to avoid making the hit. Yet for this, not the case. To me, whether it is dirty or not - it is the kind of hit they claim to want out of the game.

Brendan Shanahan levied a fine earlier this season against Dominic Moore, for grazing the hands of Ruslan Fedetenko on an interfence call - which caused Fedetenko's own stick to hit him in the face and give him a concussion. Are we being serious here? Come on...

There are so many things wrong with discipline in this league. Firstly, I am not sure why they consistently resort to electing one disciplinarian to handle every play - especially when they are pulling guys from hockey backgrounds. Does Brendan Shanahan handle all reviews involving the Detroit Red Wings? If that's the case, I will be in full support of electing Bobby Clarke to decided if anyone in the orange and black should be suspended. Just a little bias, no?

Secondly, too much of these decisions are based on reputations - and that is why players on our team will never be given the benefit of the doubt. Thirdly, too much attention is being put on whether there appears to be an immediate injury or not. Let's focus on the actions, not results. We all know, as clearly evidenced in many situations this season, concussion symptoms are not always immediate - and frequently occur days after head trauma.

I'm fine for no suspension, but don't pretend to be going out of your way to protect players from headshots.

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03-07-2012, 02:29 PM
  #42
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I don't mind either way... if hits like this are called good, or bad.

But for god sake call them all the same then. If you read the player safety rules, a hit with the principle point of impact being the head is supposed to be outlawed... as Shanny has said numerous times in his little video clips, this one obviously was, and numerous players through the year have been suspended for less.

If I was a player, I would have no clue where I stood.

I really want a Shanahan video on why this was not a suspension, just to clear up the friggin rules on this matter!

If this hit was Rinaldo on Zetterberg, he is getting 5 games.

The league won't be laughing when Crosby comes back... someone nails him like this, and bye bye career.

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03-07-2012, 02:30 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by JGalt View Post
I don't hate the hit, but the leagues interpretation here is utter ********. They're completely contradicting everything they've said the past several years about headshots. Totally disregarding the rules as written.
I was borderline, but I do agree that the explanation is absolutely piss-poor. If they had said, the head was the PPOC, but not targeted, that would be somehow rooted in the way the rule is written. As explained, it basically says, "While the head was the PPOC, Kronwall also made body contact, so it's ok." That clearly is an awful interpretation of the rule, but their brutal explanation complicates it more than it helps.

The Richards hit on Booth, while an interesting comparison, wasn't north-south, involved less body contact, and clearly JV knew that Kronwall was there. All of those factors add up to make the Richards hit slightly more egregious imo.

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03-07-2012, 02:31 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGalt View Post
I'm just gonna repost what I did in the thread on the main board:

I'm conflicted about this, having played the game, my gut says that if you put yourself in the position Voracek did, you deserve to get smoked, and that Kronwall threw about as text book a shoulder check as there is.

As someone who has spent the last several years listening to all the leagues talk about headshots and concussions and protecting players however, I think they're a bunch of liars and hypocrites. They're hasn't been a more blatantly dangerous and illegal headshot that I can readily recall. Apparently Rule 48 should actually read:


Because there is nothing in that rule the way it's written and has been interpreted to this point that defends this hit.
Sure there is. The rule reads:

48.1 Illegal Check to the Head – A hit resulting in contact with an opponent's head where the head is targeted and the principal point of contact is not permitted.....

The rule was written to eliminate hits that are targeting the head instead of the body. Notice the word AND in the rule? An illegal hit is where the head is targetted AND the PPOC. Ala the Matt Cooke style hits of the past where the hitter would deliver the hit to the head mostly, while only delivering a glancing blow to the body, if at all. Hits where the head was the principal target of the hit. That isn't what happened in the Voracek hit. Kronwall was targetting Voracek's body and was lined up perfectly for a body check. Both players were moving in North-South directions, ie head on, not blind-sided. Kronwall contacted the head, but he followed through primarily into the body. It wasn't a case of Kronwall targeting the head and missing the body completely. He lined up his hit with Voracek's body and only contacted the head because Voracek was leaning over, reaching for the puck, while trying to quickly advance the puck up the ice.

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Old
03-07-2012, 02:42 PM
  #45
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Its somewhat a grey area type of hit. Everything is by the book except for the amount of head contact involved. The league as always doesnt do a good job making clear what is and what is not acceptable

What I dont like is how Kronwall always turns his back to make the hit. It's pretty hard to direct your contact at all and to especially do it in a small targeted area of the body when you turn like that. It also allows for a more reckless hit to be made because it shields the hitter's face and hands/arms from contact entirely

I'm also not crazy about how he lures guys into these hits by backing off, but that's not something that should be suspendable.

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Old
03-07-2012, 02:43 PM
  #46
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Voracek seems ok, said the hit was clean, his fault, and hits like that should remain in the game. That's put me at ease a bit more, because I felt sick and angry when I saw him go down like that last night...

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03-07-2012, 02:45 PM
  #47
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It was NOT a clean hit. The primary point of contact was to Voracek's chin, hence it was a hit to the head and NOT clean. These are EXACTLY the kinds of hits that teams ***** about when they put out superstars. This blanket policy needs to protect ALL players & not just "stars". Also, EVERY player needs to be held to the same accountability, not just "bad guys" like Rinaldo. There should have been a suspension.

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Old
03-07-2012, 02:49 PM
  #48
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and now NHL.com is advertising the hit on their website as hit of the year... I dont understand anymore.

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Old
03-07-2012, 02:52 PM
  #49
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This is something to check out for all those saying "back in the day he would have to answer the bell for a hit like this". Same type of hits most actually a lot worse and no stupid you hurt my boyfriend squabble afterwards.


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Old
03-07-2012, 02:55 PM
  #50
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B.S. for kronwall not being suspended he saw Voracek had his head down and delivered the hit knowing he would make contact with jake's head.The league says its trying to remove headshot from the game and they let this go great job shanny.I cant wait to see one of the flyers deliver the same hit to a player with his head down and get suspended for it then what everyone will have to say then.Take a run at a player who has his head down hit him in the head with your shoulder thats ok got it shanny..

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