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No Suspension for Kronwall

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Old
03-07-2012, 06:01 PM
  #151
hockeyfreak7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So he committed to a hit on a vulnerable player, while it was obvious he was vulnerable...and hit him while he was vulnerable.
Yes.

Read rule #48 one more time, Beef. It's actually explicit in its consideration of such plays. Voracek is responsible for making himself not vulnerable.


Honestly, are there ever hits on players who are not vulnerable? Isnt that the whole thing with hitting?! Knocking a guy down when he's not expecting it?

Come on, man, you're righting the counter argument for me. If hitting a vulnerable player is outlawed....well, that's the same as outlawing all hits.

All big hits are a result of a player being vulnerable. Do you really want to say no more hits to vulnerable players? That's pretty naive.

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03-07-2012, 06:04 PM
  #152
Beef Invictus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Yes.

Read rule #48 one more time, Beef. It's actually explicit in its consideration of such plays. Voracek is responsible for making himself not vulnerable.


Honestly, are there ever hits on players who are not vulnerable? Isnt that the whole thing with hitting?! Knocking a guy down when he's not expecting it?

Come on, man, you're righting the counter argument for me. If hitting a vulnerable player is outlawed....well, that's the same as outlawing all hits.

All big hits are a result of a player being vulnerable. Do you really want to say no more hits to vulnerable players? That's pretty naive.

Rule 48 does NOT say "thou shalt not be vulnerable," and it also states that the vulnerability issue applies directly before the hit. Like, split seconds; this was not a split second issue.

Voracek was vulnerable and unaware long before Kronwall got there.

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Old
03-07-2012, 06:07 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Rule 48 does NOT say "thou shalt not be vulnerable," and it also states that the vulnerability issue applies directly before the hit. Like, split seconds; this was not a split second issue.

Voracek was vulnerable and unaware long before Kronwall got there.
So what's your point? Voracek cant be hit if he makes himself vulnerable?

How in the world is that Kronwall's fault?

EDIT: And rule 48 says that special consideration is given on plays where players make their heads more vulnerable to direct contact-- exactly what Jake did. There's really nothing confusing there.

EDIT #2: Also, rule 48 is specifically referring to the vulnerability of the player's head. So Jake made his entire body vulnerable well before the hit- but he made his head vulnerable only immediately prior to contact. Important distinction there.

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03-07-2012, 06:10 PM
  #154
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http://watch.tsn.ca/featured/clip633645#clip633645

There's more.

Voracek, Jagr and Giroux are all calling this a clean hit, but some Flyers fans seem intent on pretending that this didn't happen. I don't get it.

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03-07-2012, 06:11 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giraffywaffy View Post
There is nothing illegal about checking a vulnerable player. Kronwall had a right to step into him at that moment. The issue at hand is the vulnerability of his head, which in the frame by frame, followed by the video, shows how quickly and suddenly it unfolds in what I believe is immediately prior to contact.
That particular part of the motion is immediately prior to contact because Kronwall is skating into a player that he knows is turning up ice, head first. That's exactly how he got Voracek, Heatley and Havlat in the head. Should it be a surprise to Kronwall that the horizontal position of a person's head is in the middle of their body, between the left and right shoulders?

It reminds me of that old trick where a guy puts his fist next to someone's head and shouts "Hey look!" Voracek isn't just in a vulnerable position immediately prior.

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03-07-2012, 06:13 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
So what's your point? Voracek cant be hit if he makes himself vulnerable?

How in the world is that Kronwall's fault?

EDIT: And rule 48 says that special consideration is given on plays where players make their heads more vulnerable to direct contact-- exactly what Jake did. There's really nothing confusing there.

EDIT #2: Also, rule 48 is specifically referring to the vulnerability of the player's head. So Jake made his entire body vulnerable well before the hit- but he made his head vulnerable only immediately prior to contact. Important distinction there.
Not in the head as the targeted and PPOC, no.

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03-07-2012, 06:13 PM
  #157
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Voracek HEAD was VULNERABLE and Kronwall took advantage with a targetted hit to the head.


End of story.


Inconsistent NHL bull ****. Imagine its Crosby on that receiving end, oh I bet the result might be a little different.

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03-07-2012, 06:15 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
That particular part of the motion is immediately prior to contact because Kronwall is skating into a player that he knows is turning up ice, head first. That's exactly how he got Voracek, Heatley and Havlat in the head. Should it be a surprise to Kronwall that the horizontal position of a person's head is in the middle of their body, between the left and right shoulders?

It reminds me of that old trick where a guy puts his fist next to someone's head and shouts "Hey look!" Voracek isn't just in a vulnerable position immediately prior.
This is nothing like that old trick.

And neither Heatley or Havlat made as big of a stride up the ice as JV did. This is a rare instance in Kronwalls hit history where he made probably the shortest stride yet. He came into him as Jake was fumbling with the puck along the boards, shoulder up and body turned away. Jake went into Kronwall as much as Kronwall went into him.

you're in the minority and it's only because you're confused about how the NHL is enforcing it, which is ok. You can use this example in the future though

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03-07-2012, 06:16 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Crossbar Ping View Post
Voracek HEAD was VULNERABLE and Kronwall took advantage with a targetted hit to the head.


End of story.


Inconsistent NHL bull ****. Imagine its Crosby on that receiving end, oh I bet the result might be a little different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
That particular part of the motion is immediately prior to contact because Kronwall is skating into a player that he knows is turning up ice, head first. That's exactly how he got Voracek, Heatley and Havlat in the head. Should it be a surprise to Kronwall that the horizontal position of a person's head is in the middle of their body, between the left and right shoulders?

It reminds me of that old trick where a guy puts his fist next to someone's head and shouts "Hey look!" Voracek isn't just in a vulnerable position immediately prior.
Here it goes again. Apparently you two don't feel that Giroux, Jagr and Voracek are sufficiently unbiased and expert to make judgments on this matter.

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03-07-2012, 06:17 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Not in the head as the targeted and PPOC, no.
His head became vulnerable immediately prior to the hit. Allow me to quote myself:



Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Kronwall was committed to the hit well before Jake put his head in a vulnerable position.

From here:



Kronwall was lining Jake up with NO specific target other than to complete a body check.


To here:



Jake presents Kronwall with no target except the head. Kronwall has already been 100% committed to the hit.


The elapsed time between those two points in time is about a quarter of a second.


I dont think you understand just how quickly these plays actually happen.

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Old
03-07-2012, 06:24 PM
  #161
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If Voracek himself says it was a clean hit, I say let it be.

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03-07-2012, 06:24 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giraffywaffy View Post
This is nothing like that old trick.

And neither Heatley or Havlat made as big of a stride up the ice as JV did. This is a rare instance in Kronwalls hit history where he made probably the shortest stride yet. He came into him as Jake was fumbling with the puck along the boards, shoulder up and body turned away. Jake went into Kronwall as much as Kronwall went into him.

you're in the minority and it's only because you're confused about how the NHL is enforcing it, which is ok. You can use this example in the future though
Let me say this a different way. Your definition of "immediately prior" would work just as well as a cop-out for that old trick as it does for the Kronwall hit. The victim does not become "vulnerable" until they turn their face into the fist, according to this line of thinking. That's why I was reminded of it.

The difference here is that Kronwall is not just standing still. He is striding into a vulnerable player who has his head lowered and is looking down.

Voracek is also rotating up ice just before he gets hit because that's when Kronwall timed his hit (just like he did on Heatley and Havlat).

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03-07-2012, 06:26 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Let me say this a different way. Your definition of "immediately prior" would work just as well as a cop-out for that old trick as it does for the Kronwall hit. The victime does not become "vulnerable" until they turn their face into the fist, according to this line of thinking. That's why I was reminded of it.

The difference here is that Kronwall is not just standing still. He is striding into a vulnerable player who has his head lowered and is looking down.

Voracek is also rotating up ice just before he gets hit because that's when Kronwall timed his hit (just like he did on Heatley and Havlat).
Man, it's as if I'm invisible and inaudible. Oh well.

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Old
03-07-2012, 06:27 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
His head became vulnerable immediately prior to the hit. Allow me to quote myself:

Jake presents Kronwall with no target except the head. Kronwall has already been 100% committed to the hit.

I dont think you understand just how quickly these plays actually happen.
Except for his left and right shoulders, each of which are just as wide as the head.

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03-07-2012, 06:29 PM
  #165
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Here's my take on it. Kronwall definetly targeted a players head and hit in a way to try to cause injury, end of story. Even footballl has changed its rules to protect the players. It is a suspension in every description of the rule. Because Shanny ruled it was ok does not change the fact that if you watch to hit there was intent to injure. I guess Kronwall and Chara have a pass to injure players

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03-07-2012, 06:30 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Except for his left and right shoulders, each of which are just as wide as the head.
Thanks for proving that you've never played competitive hockey before. I'm sorry, but if you truly believe the things you're saying, then you obviously dont understand the speed at which things happen in the NHL.

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03-07-2012, 06:30 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Let me say this a different way. Your definition of "immediately prior" would work just as well as a cop-out for that old trick as it does for the Kronwall hit. The victim does not become "vulnerable" until they turn their face into the fist, according to this line of thinking. That's why I was reminded of it.

The difference here is that Kronwall is not just standing still. He is striding into a vulnerable player who has his head lowered and is looking down.

Voracek is also rotating up ice just before he gets hit because that's when Kronwall timed his hit (just like he did on Heatley and Havlat).
You're not telling me anything here. I'm sorry.

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03-07-2012, 06:30 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Man, it's as if I'm invisible and inaudible. Oh well.
I already answered that. It's basically an appeal to authority, but it doesn't work because Voracek is using an argument that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Voracek is saying it was a clean hit because his head was down. You're not arguing that it's a clean hit because his head was down, are you?

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03-07-2012, 06:32 PM
  #169
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Kronwall has a history of these type of hits. So don't tell me he doesn't play that way. He had every intention of setting up the big head hit as he has done in his past it has nothing to do with the speed of the game

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03-07-2012, 06:35 PM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
I already answered that. It's basically an appeal to authority, but it doesn't work because Voracek is using an argument that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Voracek is saying it was a clean hit because his head was down. You're not arguing that it's a clean hit because his head was down, are you?
No, the full quote

Quote:
The hit was clean."

I had my head down. Ive got to be aware that Kronwall is standing there at the blue line. It was the end of my shift and I look up and hes standing at the blue line and Im focusing on the puck and hes very good at it."

I was kind of nave to think he was going to back up, obviously. It was a tough hit to take, but it was a clean hit and from my side, it was my bad. Those hits should stay in the game.
What he is saying is that he didn't think Kronwall would step up on him and he went ahead, full bore with his head and placed himself in a vulnerable spot.

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03-07-2012, 06:36 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Thanks for proving that you've never played competitive hockey before. I'm sorry, but if you truly believe the things you're saying, then you obviously dont understand the speed at which things happen in the NHL.
If Kronwall's hitting style involves a pattern of hitting defenseless players in the head and happens too quickly for him to avoid, then he should be compelled to change his reckless hitting style.

The knee-jerk response to this always seems to be, "Well then forwards shouldn't have their heads down," but that argument ignores that Kronwall always goes in for these hits when a forward has to put his head down to make the play.

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03-07-2012, 06:36 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by giraffywaffy View Post
Eh, sorry if you think that. Apologies if I made it seem as such. I'm only curious as to how someone can still think it's not within the rules after seeing Shanahan explain how such a hit is
you are not trolling.
I'm sorry you were even "accused".

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03-07-2012, 06:39 PM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giraffywaffy View Post
No, the full quote

What he is saying is that he didn't think Kronwall would step up on him and he went ahead, full bore with his head and placed himself in a vulnerable spot.
After which Kronwall hit him in the head.

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03-07-2012, 06:41 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
After which Kronwall hit him in the head.
That's because Kronwall is a dirty piece of **** and there is a conspiracy in the league.


i mean.. obviously.

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03-07-2012, 06:42 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by giraffywaffy View Post
That's because Kronwall is a dirty piece of **** and there is a conspiracy in the league.


i mean.. obviously.
I'm not sure why you're getting childish all of a sudden.

He has a history of reckless hits like this. The result of these hits is bad. I think they should be gone and that the NHL whiffed on their mandate.

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