Unless you have a very clear lane and the speed/skill to get through clean, taking the puck wide is the play to make, as it creates angles and options for the offense upon zone entry. One of the most basic game play fundamentals we teach the young kids.
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Originally Posted by TwoPadStack
This isn't basketball. That "lane" you perceive to be wide open up the middle gets suffocated awfully fast, and there's no foul to call like in basketball. It's a simple play for both defensemen to close down the gap and stop the opponent.
Going wide is the correct play. Protect the puck, wait for support, open up passing options, etc.
These aren't kids. They're NHL players. One of the Sharks most basic offensive systems pushes the puck up the middle, drop a pass back and drive the net looking for a pass, deflection or rebound. So what Rickety is saying isn't crazy. The Sharks have not been pressuring the slot and the lack of scoring reflects that. Winnick has already stated that there's a learning curve to the way the Sharks play on the PK - wouldn't be surprised if he's adjusting on offense as well.
These aren't kids. They're NHL players. One of the Sharks most basic offensive systems pushes the puck up the middle, drop a pass back and drive the net looking for a pass, deflection or rebound. So what Rickety is saying isn't crazy. The Sharks have not been pressuring the slot and the lack of scoring reflects that. Winnick has already stated that there's a learning curve to the way the Sharks play on the PK - wouldn't be surprised if he's adjusting on offense as well.
There is no offensive 'system' of pushing the puck up the middle. Where the puck carrier goes upon zone entry depends upon the positioning of the D, their level of gap control, and the relative speeds and skills involved. Speedy, highly skilled players can exploit the middle better than slower and/or lower skilled players. On a percentage basis, a wide zone entry is a) way more commonly employed; b) creates far more options, and c) is a higher percentage play for eventually creating a good scoring chance in the slot. Having the puck carrier take the puck straight up the slot on zone entry is a very low percentage play unless the player has the advantage on the d as indicated above. Third line grinders rarely have that in their repetoire. And yes, these are NHL players, which includes NHL defensemen who are very good at defending against a one dimensional zone entry.
And the reason we teach the kids this is because its one of the basic fundamentals of hockey that is employed at every level from Mites to Pros.
What the poster may be referring to is taking available ice. Not necessarily driving the middle for a chance on net, but keeping the other team honest, making them push you to the perimeter, possibly opening up lanes in the process.
I would argue that Winnik has the size, speed and puckhandling skills to take more ice than he does. I think he is playing especially safe because his role is mostly defensive, plus he's new.
This isn't basketball. That "lane" you perceive to be wide open up the middle gets suffocated awfully fast, and there's no foul to call like in basketball. It's a simple play for both defensemen to close down the gap and stop the opponent.
Going wide is the correct play. Protect the puck, wait for support, open up passing options,
etc.
So when he enters the zone and he has space he should go to the corner instead of shooting?
Sure it could get blocked but its better than going to the corner every time and turning it over, which is what he does.
Last edited by Rickety Cricket: 03-07-2012 at 01:13 PM.
What the poster may be referring to is taking available ice. Not necessarily driving the middle for a chance on net, but keeping the other team honest, making them push you to the perimeter, possibly opening up lanes in the process.
I would argue that Winnik has the size, speed and puckhandling skills to take more ice than he does. I think he is playing especially safe because
his role is mostly defensive, plus he's new.
More or less.
If you do the same thing over and over again, it becomes very easy to defend.
I'm not saying going to the corner is a bad play, just a bad idea to do it every time.
Its funny as hell that after 3 or 4 games you can see exactly why Avs fans loved and hated Winnik. The guy can look like a legit top 6er making all these sweet plays, then when he gets the opportunity to finish he turns in to a ECHL level player.
But all that said he is an awesome PKer, and defensive player, he is so frustrating I'm so glad I don't have to watch him anymore especially considering what his contract demands were rumored to be.
Its funny as hell that after 3 or 4 games you can see exactly why Avs fans loved and hated Winnik. The guy can look like a legit top 6er making all these sweet plays, then when he gets the opportunity to finish he turns in to a ECHL level player.
But all that said he is an awesome PKer, and defensive player, he is so frustrating I'm so glad I don't have to watch him anymore especially considering what his contract demands were rumored to be.
Its funny as hell that after 3 or 4 games you can see exactly why Avs fans loved and hated Winnik. The guy can look like a legit top 6er making all these sweet plays, then when he gets the opportunity to finish he turns in to a ECHL level player.
But all that said he is an awesome PKer, and defensive player, he is so frustrating I'm so glad I don't have to watch him anymore especially considering what his contract demands were rumored to be.
That's just nonsense. Blame Sacco for putting him on a line with Stastny and Duchene and expecting him to finish plays. Every team in the NHL would love to have a player like Winnik amongst their forward group.
Exactly. All I want from him is to keep the puck on the other end of the ice till the big boys can hop over. If he can score while doing that, awesome.
__________________ "there's nothing good about dubstep." - The Nemesis
Exactly. All I want from him is to keep the puck on the other end of the ice till the big boys can hop over. If he can score while doing that, awesome.
These posts exactly. It'd be nice if Winnik can put it in the net, but at least he can shut down people with his puck possession
winnik is amazing at holding the puck, he is perfect for our third line. and im hoping that galiardi eventually earns a spot there because i think the way winnik plays and the way tj play would lead to some scoring oppurtunities. hell even wingels on the third line excites me. mitchell just doesnt do it for me.
i thought moore had an awesome game as well. i really hope we make the playoffs because in 20 games those three will probably be working really well together, unless we tank lol.
My take is that Moore needs someone who is offensively talented to make the 3rd line complete and they can't take a lot of time to figure it out. It isn't Winnik and it isn't Mitchell, either of whom can be the third wheel on the line.
I was wondering what would happen if we stuck Moore with Clowe and Havlat?
I was wondering what would happen if we stuck Moore with Clowe and Havlat?
It would like disable Couture or the top line. One or the other of Clowe/Havlat. Having watched Moore, Clowe would seem to be a better fit. Moore is pretty good at hitting the trailer.
It would like disable Couture or the top line. One or the other of Clowe/Havlat. Having watched Moore, Clowe would seem to be a better fit. Moore is pretty good at hitting the trailer.
I just have to wonder if we're wasting Winnik's defensive talent if he's on a line with Clowe.
I actually think it would work as they would have defensive talent across 3 lines. At least two deep for defense on each line. No more swapping Marleau around to enhance defense.
I actually think it would work as they would have defensive talent across 3 lines. At least two deep for defense on each line. No more swapping Marleau around to enhance defense.
Probably not many, which is why he should try mixing it up instead of doing the same thing everytime.
he should try the least likely thing to work considering his skill set?
The puck carrier has to figure out who is with him and where the passing lanes will develop when the puck is carried in instead of being dumped and chased down.
The fact Winnik isn't trying to do something he knows he shouldn't be doing by challenging the middle of the ice and having to deal with more than one defenseman's stick and/or body says a lot for his knowledge of what he is capable of. One dman ties up the stick and body, the other swoops in on the puck. Pretty basic, it happens constantly when someone tries to get through the middle of the slot and doesn't have the skills/speed to split the D and not turnover the puck.
Players that play within their capabilities and make smart plays stick around and will always have a job. Winnik's capabilities dictate he drive to one side when entering the zone with the puck (or dump and chase) to force a 1 on 1 situation with a Dman and make some time and space to work, or become a turnover machine by forcing the puck into a more crowded/defended ice space, and ultimately lose his job. Heck, JT has a hard time pulling it off anymore.
I wonder that Winnik doesn't prefer to drive the left side because he's left handed and that keeps him facing the endboard/net while handling the puck against the sideboards and dealing with an oncoming dman. The other side would force Winnik to have his back to the sideboards to face the endboards/net, puck gets pushed through his feet to the boards by the dman, he has to turn around and try to play the puck deeper with his backhand. Also, a left handed dman would have to play the puck against the left (relative to the puck carrier facing the goal) sideboards with his backhand to move it away from his own goal. There's something to this, i remember a few years back a player for St. Louis said something about entering the zone/dumping against the Sharks was actually easier because they had no right handed defensemen. St. Louis' left handed wingers were eating the Sharks D up that night... I want to say it was the year before Boyle was acquired by the Sharks, can't really remember right now, i'm really high.
Outside of all that, Winnik is mixing it up when you look at how the Sharks typically try to gain the zone... Most times the Sharks pull up right after gaining the line instead of challenging the Dman further down the wall forcing him to cut off the play physically while waiting for support from F2 and/or F3 to get open. Sometimes they stop up like that instead of dumping and chasing when F2 has a step to the end boards on their respective Dman, drives me nuts.
Winnik doesn't do that, not yet at least.
Shot selection is another thing. So sick of watching the Sharks pound shots, from the high slot/point/while entering the zone with the puck, into the shin pads of the defenders. The blocked shot kicks out of the zone and sometimes starts odd man rushes the other way. Winnik tends to get his shots through, not only is he smart with the puck he is also careful with it.
I'm happy Winnik is here, not sure how much he's really worth contract-wise considering he doesn't seem to have finish or a nose for the dirty areas. He's blown a breath of fresh air into the puck possesion for the Sharks, he just needs to play with someone that'll score some dirty goals. Sharks lack that overall though.
Seems like if he could pot even close to 20 goals and/or 50 points he'd be a decent top 6 guy. He doesn't seem to have that finish needed though, but he's smart and good with the puck and in his own end. That makes him a pretty decent third/fourth liner, definitely an upgrade over Zues on the third line.
