The easy answer is that two wrongs don't make it right; just call the infractions from start to finish regardless of the score or time. That is what is expected of the referee. For those of you that jump on the bandwagon here you are absolutely right in theory.
In practicality it would also demonstrate to me that you have never been in the position that the referees find themselves in or put themselves in during the emotion, speed, intensity and ebb and flow of a game.
The above is a common reply to the issue. The problem with the reply is that you justify not calling by leaving it up to the ref where all the incentives are out there not to call. The correction comes in using the theoretical correction along with a change in attitudes of league execs and ref supervisors (the unmentioned part of the above quote). Missed calls change a game just as much as bad calls. They have overweighted the onus on bad calls. None of us want to see a game that is special teams end to end, but the reality is that players will adapt to a tighter call level. They don't have to be so tight as to equate to a policeman issuing tickets to a guy 1 mph over the speed limit. However, they should be issuing tickets in all cases where someone is 10 mph over. What we are seeing is a cascade effect of letting too much go which will descend into another dead puck era.
They need to change the above ideology. Set the intensity level and particulars at which they will call an infraction no matter the place in a game at which it occurs. Two identical infractions affect the outcome equally even if one is 10 minutes into the game and the other is with 5 minutes left. Let there be no more lame excuses.
Rules question, based on a situation a few minutes ago in the PIT/WPG game. WPG scores on a delayed penalty against PIT for hi-sticking. After the goal the refs were checking the WPG player to see if he'd been cut. He had not, but if he had, would WPG have still received a power play? Would they get the full 4 minutes, or would they get only a 2 min PP since they had already scored on the delayed call?
Rules question, based on a situation a few minutes ago in the PIT/WPG game. WPG scores on a delayed penalty against PIT for hi-sticking. After the goal the refs were checking the WPG player to see if he'd been cut. He had not, but if he had, would WPG have still received a power play? Would they get the full 4 minutes, or would they get only a 2 min PP since they had already scored on the delayed call?
Just saw this scroll across the bottom of NHL network screen. "NHL.com - penalties called per game at 3 decade low".
Hurray for the return of clutch and grab :*(
Wow I am behind in games so I just watched the rangers devils game which orourke waived off a game tying goal. I hadn't quite checked penalty stats so this stat jumped out.
Excellent article by Fraser. It covers positioning, rescinding of calls and sightlines. Strong support for the policy of skating opposite for the in-zone ref.
Are there any numbers on an overall lower number of calls throughout the league since the All-Star break?
Anecdotally I can absolutely say they're letting all sorts of interference go that they weren't even at the beginning of the season, let alone last year. But I want to know if there are numbers that back that up.
Are there any numbers on an overall lower number of calls throughout the league since the All-Star break?
Anecdotally I can absolutely say they're letting all sorts of interference go that they weren't even at the beginning of the season, let alone last year. But I want to know if there are numbers that back that up.
It is right at NHL.com in number of PPs. They are falling through the floor relatively speaking.
Observationally, I have actually seen interference called at about the same rate. However, it is the obstruction calls that seem to have dropped, hooking, holding, tripping. Safety calls seem to be up overall so the drop in obstruction is even more obvious just from the number of PPs.
Yeah, I mean interference as as "interference-type calls," or what you're calling the obstruction calls rather than interference itself.
Can you sort the NHL.com number in segments? I'd be interested in looking at the number of overall PPs in like...15 or 20 game segments.
To go by segments, you have to go by game logs/scoresheets. A real PITA. By eyeball calls are going down.
Some of the aggressive callers are falling back. Interesting game a few weeks ago with Auger/Devo. Auger completely backed off and he is the most aggressive caller of all refs. Watson is still in the moderate range.
Are there any numbers on an overall lower number of calls throughout the league since the All-Star break?
Anecdotally I can absolutely say they're letting all sorts of interference go that they weren't even at the beginning of the season, let alone last year. But I want to know if there are numbers that back that up.
Its clear in the games I've watched post-break that a lot fewer calls are being made, esp. in the obstruction categories. The scoresheets seem to confirm it. I've heard several broadcast teams mention it. They seem to think its mainly a reaction to the concussion issues, and that the league is willing to tolerate a slower pace and fewer scoring chances in exchange.
re Auger, ouch! hope its not too serious. I actually think he'd been doing a good job this season.
On another note: just happened to be watching HNIC tonight when Van Massenhoven got tangled up and turned around on the side boards with a couple players, and missed a DOG-POG call (Lee did see it and made the call). Glenn Healy mentioned that "the League keeps track of how often officials bump into players." I assume this is the case, though its rare for one of the anlysts to make that point during a game.
re Auger, ouch! hope its not too serious. I actually think he'd been doing a good job this season.
On another note: just happened to be watching HNIC tonight when Van Massenhoven got tangled up and turned around on the side boards with a couple players, and missed a DOG-POG call (Lee did see it and made the call). Glenn Healy mentioned that "the League keeps track of how often officials bump into players." I assume this is the case, though its rare for one of the anlysts to make that point during a game.
They don't specifically count the number of times a referee bumps into a player, what they count is the number of times a referee's positioning impacts play...but they also have a second category of referees being out of position and impacting play, which is what they really care about.
A perfect example of that would have been last night in Worcester with David Banfield (I wish I had video to show because it's textbook). In the 2nd period the puck went into the PBruins' zone and Banfield positioned himself on the far side, and was in perfect position to "not call" what looked to be a trip on Providence (the fans boo'd loudly, but I think he got it right). Suddenly a Worcester shot went wide by a considerable margin and ended up flying right at Banfield, who ducked out of the way and started to move to the near corner using the open lane behind the Providence goal. But an odd bounce deflected the puck right back at him and the surge of players trapped him in the scrum of players. There was a "phantom" hand pass called by one of the linesmen (neither the WorSharks nor PBruins complained because everyone knew why the whistle was blown) as soon as one of the Providence players fell near the puck.
Did Banfield's positioning impact the play? Yes, it did. But he was literally in the exact spot he was supposed to be and made a good "no call", made a textbook move to get out of the way (without turning his head mind you, the replay showed he continued to watch the puck and the play in the offensive zone), and because of a bad bounce still got caught up in the play.
The NHL (and AHL) knows that sometimes bounces happen, and when that happens refs are seldom dinged for it
They don't specifically count the number of times a referee bumps into a player, what they count is the number of times a referee's positioning impacts play...but they also have a second category of referees being out of position and impacting play, which is what they really care about.
Certainly with the Banfield example you would hope they wouldn't really hold it against him, stuff happens as they say.
VanM was on the HNIC game again tonight. I didn't see any collisions this time, but his real issue is he's just too slow these days, not very good skating back into the zone and pretty much stuck to the side boards.
Hasenfratz was a last minute cancellation for a recent Sharks game. Any info on him popping up or his status would be appreciated.
Dowisetrepla,
VanM was on an interview a long time ago. Despite his poor skating, he is very strong on keeping up his workouts in the off-season. Geared to stamina. In all pieces that I have seen him do and in his interactions on ice, VanM is very professional.
Hasenfratz was a last minute cancellation for a recent Sharks game. Any info on him popping up or his status would be appreciated.
Dowisetrepla,
VanM was on an interview a long time ago. Despite his poor skating, he is very strong on keeping up his workouts in the off-season. Geared to stamina. In all pieces that I have seen him do and in his interactions on ice, VanM is very professional.
Hasenfratz is listed as working tonight's CHI/CBJ game.
Re VanM, didn't mean to sound so harsh. My apologies.
Hey all - just stumbled upon this thread by accident and am thrilled to find some intelligent discussion about officiating matters in the NHL. I've been a ref for 15 years and have worked in the OHL, OHA, AJHL and OUA in Canada, so it's very refreshing to find a group of folks with more to say than 'refs suck'! Looking forward to some good discussion as we get into playoff time.
Quick question just to warm up.. I've noticed since about December that refs in the NHL almost universally now are much slower on the whistle on routine puck freezes by the goaltender (much slower than I've ever seen, almost irritatingly so). Has anyone else picked this up? Any idea why this is? In my experience being too slow on a whistle can lead to trouble.. Although admittedly they seem to be doing it only when there is no attacking player within a stickslength of the net. Thanks
Hey all - just stumbled upon this thread by accident and am thrilled to find some intelligent discussion about officiating matters in the NHL. I've been a ref for 15 years and have worked in the OHL, OHA, AJHL and OUA in Canada, so it's very refreshing to find a group of folks with more to say than 'refs suck'! Looking forward to some good discussion as we get into playoff time.
Quick question just to warm up.. I've noticed since about December that refs in the NHL almost universally now are much slower on the whistle on routine puck freezes by the goaltender (much slower than I've ever seen, almost irritatingly so). Has anyone else picked this up? Any idea why this is? In my experience being too slow on a whistle can lead to trouble.. Although admittedly they seem to be doing it only when there is no attacking player within a stickslength of the net. Thanks
Refs suck!!!!
Oh, sorry.
SJeasy will have a better take on this, but I'm pretty sure there was some discussion earlier about the NHL wanting referees to keep the play going if the goaltender wasn't under pressure. I have noticed in the AHL that when the two ref system is being used there seems to be a lot more "communicating" by the refs about keeping the play going vs when it's a single ref the whistles come a lot quicker. So you're probably not imagining it.
