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Injury Talk 5.0: Diaz and Bourque out with concussions

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Old
03-08-2012, 02:06 PM
  #51
Issacar
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
You can't sign Wiz to a 6-year $33 million contract and then trade him 8 months later for a 2nd round pick. Do you think anyone was willing to take that gross contract off the Blue Jackets last month? Heck no. No one was interested in picking up Hamrlik with another year at $3.5 million left either. Plus, we would have been way over the salary cap under that brilliant plan, so signing Cole wouldn't have happened.
Markov's contract does not apply to the salary cap and the Canadiens still had a 2-3M$ cushion even with Markov contract counting.

So really straight off the bat, after calculating Cole contract in our cap. We had 8M$ or so.

Don't tell me that with 8M$ in free space yo ucan't find a mean to accomodate Hamrlik and Wisniewski's contract in your cap...

We also managed to trade Spacek away... maybe we would of gotten something else then Kaberle if we needed more salary space. (without adding that Kaberle earns more then Spacek and for 2 more years).

Did the Blue Jackets recieve a trade that was worth their while for Wisnieski? Was he reallyo n the market to begin with? Sooo given your logic... No one wanted the gross contract of Rick Nash right?

So in the end we really coud of signed Markov, Cole, Hamrlik and Wisnieski without much, if any issues...

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03-08-2012, 02:10 PM
  #52
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So no Emelin and no Diaz?
Diaz would of been playing in the AHL probably given my plan. I would of taken the risk of him going back in the KHL if we couldn,t find him a spot in the NHL.

Hamrlik and Wisnieski are better plugs then Diaz and Emelin this season. We wouldn't have been bottom feeder with the quality defensive we had last year and Jacques Martin would not have been fired for a coach who delivers even less then he did.
You also have to factor in injuries, so Diaz and Emelin might jsut have had decent ice time this season desptie my plan...

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03-08-2012, 02:10 PM
  #53
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Agreed, Gauthier's mistake was not to sign Markov. His mistake was to not have a backup plan. I would have re-signed Markov, Hamrlik and Wisneski. Like that it would have had offered us the depth to compensate for Markov while he is out (turns out it was over 80% of the season) and we would have had assets to trade away once he get back (Wisnieski would have pulled in at least the 2nd round pick we offered to acquire him).
From Hamrlik's play this year signing him to a 2 year deal wouldn't have helped our "back up plan". He's been a healthy scratch a few games on a team fighting for their playoff lives. It would have made our problem bigger, at least Campoli we can walk away next summer(heck would could send him to Hamilton if we needed cap room), Hamrlik's 35+ is immoveable.

Signing Wisniewski may have helped for this year(though he's missed 1/3 of the season) but his contract would end up looking like the Gomez or Redden one in a year or two. Plus he would have cost us Cole, no way we could fir Hamrlik Cole and Wisniewski under the cap and still have Markov.

I'm sure even in their worst fears they were not expecting Markov to miss 6 more months since he was skating last May/June. Signing a player 80% of what markov was would have cost big money(Ehrhoff Wisniewski etc).

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03-08-2012, 02:18 PM
  #54
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Diaz would of been playing in the AHL probably given my plan. I would of taken the risk of him going back in the KHL if we couldn,t find him a spot in the NHL.

Hamrlik and Wisnieski are better plugs then Diaz and Emelin this season. We wouldn't have been bottom feeder with the quality defensive we had last year and Jacques Martin would not have been fired for a coach who delivers even less then he did.
You also have to factor in injuries, so Diaz and Emelin might jsut have had decent ice time this season desptie my plan...
does your plan take care of everything?

Imagine that Markov is ready in october

5.75 Markov
6.00 Wiz
3.50 Hamrlik
3.83 Spacek
2.50 Gorges
2.25 Gill
0.88 Subban


thats 24 millions

38 millions for foward

4 millions for goalies

0.650 cap coverage (0.5 laraque)

thats over 66-67 millions

that does not includes the call up, etc... you are ALREADY over 3 millions


the case that Markov is injured is pretty cool
but reports said he would be ready in october

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03-08-2012, 02:25 PM
  #55
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When Markov re-injured himself last season, the doctors where saying that he needed a full year for recovery. So that meant he was not going to be ready until december of this year.

Medias quickly forgot that when the team announced that Markov "might" be ready for the beginning of the season. We've been waiting for Markov this whole season.

If Markov would of been ready in october as hoped. You either trade Wisnieski or Spacek. Or you put them on the LITR, send them in Europe, AHL...

If you want to keep waiting for Markov... that's your thing.

I'm talking abotu efficient managing and how to not waste assets that are part of your club. We keep letting guys go on the UFA for nothing when they are still worthwhile player and we should be trading htem away instead. Everyone are always speaking that we need a Paul Holmgren... well that's the kind of managing he does.

You get your team ready for NOW and deal with issues when they arrises.

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03-08-2012, 02:27 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Issacar View Post
Markov's contract does not apply to the salary cap and the Canadiens still had a 2-3M$ cushion even with Markov contract counting.

So really straight off the bat, after calculating Cole contract in our cap. We had 8M$ or so.

Don't tell me that with 8M$ in free space yo ucan't find a mean to accomodate Hamrlik and Wisniewski's contract in your cap...

We also managed to trade Spacek away... maybe we would of gotten something else then Kaberle if we needed more salary space. (without adding that Kaberle earns more then Spacek and for 2 more years).

Did the Blue Jackets recieve a trade that was worth their while for Wisnieski? Was he reallyo n the market to begin with? Sooo given your logic... No one wanted the gross contract of Rick Nash right?

So in the end we really coud of signed Markov, Cole, Hamrlik and Wisnieski without much, if any issues...
You seem to forgot this:

During the summer, when you actually sign the UFA... the Management had good indication that Markov would be back within 2 month.... so his 5,75 cap hit would have actually count...sooner or later.

They could have signed one defenseman in case Markov doesnt come back ... but 2 was not really possible (unless they took the option to bury Gomez during the season once Markov is back)

Spacek was not easy to trade... all we got in a return ... was a long and heavy contract ... I don't think any cup contender (the only kind of team that could be interested in Spacek) would have been interested by him... proof, he did not get moved at the TD.

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03-08-2012, 02:32 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
From Hamrlik's play this year signing him to a 2 year deal wouldn't have helped our "back up plan". He's been a healthy scratch a few games on a team fighting for their playoff lives. It would have made our problem bigger, at least Campoli we can walk away next summer(heck would could send him to Hamilton if we needed cap room), Hamrlik's 35+ is immoveable.

Signing Wisniewski may have helped for this year(though he's missed 1/3 of the season) but his contract would end up looking like the Gomez or Redden one in a year or two. Plus he would have cost us Cole, no way we could fir Hamrlik Cole and Wisniewski under the cap and still have Markov.

I'm sure even in their worst fears they were not expecting Markov to miss 6 more months since he was skating last May/June. Signing a player 80% of what markov was would have cost big money(Ehrhoff Wisniewski etc).
Is the issue really Hamrlik? I don't know if you watch the Capitals, but before blaming Hamrlik, I would blame plenty of other players in that line up.

What do you prefer, Hamrlik or Kaberle? Kaberle still ahs 2 years left and earns 1M$ more then Hamrlik.... Heh yeah, Hamrlik is such a burden... start by lookign what we have in our backyard... Gomez, Kaberle....

If we would of signed Harmlik, we wouldn,t have Campoli that will walk away because he is meaningless. Hamrlik was a pillar for us in the past 5 years.

As I just pointed out in my previous post, you deal with Wieniski when he becomes an issue. Imo, once Markov would be healthy, my main priority would have been to get rid of Wisnieski. Don,t really need both and I agree that Wiesniewski's contract is too steep. Yes he gott injured for 1/3 of this season, but Markov hasn't played one single game yet and what tells us that he would of gotten injured while playing for us?

By looking at the way Markov was skating last summer, I was fearing that he would return on the ice and for good reason, he required another surgery!!!!! If you look at him skate right now, he can't even go on the ice before the end of the season, he does not even put weight on his leg. Imo, he's done for, in an interview at L'Antichambre, a surgeon was saying how here they would never have done the surgery he was done in Florida because it creates too much complication. For once, your body might not accept a pig knee to begin with.

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03-08-2012, 02:34 PM
  #58
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When Markov re-injured himself last season, the doctors where saying that he needed a full year for recovery. So that meant he was not going to be ready until december of this year.

Medias quickly forgot that when the team announced that Markov "might" be ready for the beginning of the season. We've been waiting for Markov this whole season.

If Markov would of been ready in october as hoped. You either trade Wisnieski or Spacek. Or you put them on the LITR, send them in Europe, AHL...

If you want to keep waiting for Markov... that's your thing.

I'm talking abotu efficient managing and how to not waste assets that are part of your club. We keep letting guys go on the UFA for nothing when they are still worthwhile player and we should be trading htem away instead. Everyone are always speaking that we need a Paul Holmgren... well that's the kind of managing he does.

You get your team ready for NOW and deal with issues when they arrises.
Sign a defenseman to a long term contract + trading him within 2 month in the season = efficient managing ?

You think UFA will like that kind of managing ?

Send to europe ? ... it happen so often. Not cuz you once see a team take that option with Huet ... that it mean it's a done deal with any player.

Put them on LITR ??? what ??

You think efficient managing bury player in the AHL ??

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03-08-2012, 02:37 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ProMath View Post
You seem to forgot this:

During the summer, when you actually sign the UFA... the Management had good indication that Markov would be back within 2 month.... so his 5,75 cap hit would have actually count...sooner or later.

They could have signed one defenseman in case Markov doesnt come back ... but 2 was not really possible (unless they took the option to bury Gomez during the season once Markov is back)

Spacek was not easy to trade... all we got in a return ... was a long and heavy contract ... I don't think any cup contender (the only kind of team that could be interested in Spacek) would have been interested by him... proof, he did not get moved at the TD.
Markov was skating on one leg last summer. Don't know if you,ve seen footage of the practices, but anyone who believed that Markov would be back early were really far off. If management believed in this crap, more reason to fire Gauthier.

It,s not because Markov say "I'm ready". That he is indeed ready, just look at the way he is sakting during practices right now, he's not even ready to play before the end of the seaosn, the guy skates on one leg for god sake. If you send him now, he'll only require another surgery before the season is over.

I also shown that we were albe to keep Gomez while signing 2 defensemne. Also, is it that hard to pass Spacek through the waivers and free cap space? I mean, it's not like the NHL doesn't give work around to free up cap space... It's just smart management.

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03-08-2012, 02:42 PM
  #60
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I also shown that we were albe to keep Gomez while signing 2 defensemne. Also, is it that hard to pass Spacek through the waivers and free cap space? I mean, it's not like the NHL doesn't give work around to free up cap space... It's just smart management.

Go look at CHewbaca Post. He did not even include Webber / Emelin. (and I agree DIaz would be in the AHL)

Yes you can pass Spacek through waivers... but why exactly any GM would do you a favor and claim him so you be under the CAP ??

Last years we saw what it does to a team to be Over the Cap...if it was so easy, they would not have played 10 game (someone correct me ... it was something btw 5-15 game I think) with less player on the roster.

Again, signing one more defensam (Hamrlik) would have been good managing ... 2 would not. Espacially if you wanted to develop Weber / Emelin.

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03-08-2012, 02:43 PM
  #61
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I also shown that we were albe to keep Gomez while signing 2 defensemne. Also, is it that hard to pass Spacek through the waivers and free cap space? I mean, it's not like the NHL doesn't give work around to free up cap space... It's just smart management.
Not so smart it turns out. Spacek is on a 35+ contract, if you waive him he goes to Hamilton.... and his cap hit still counts. We could use more "smart" management like that.

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03-08-2012, 02:48 PM
  #62
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Sign a defenseman to a long term contract + trading him within 2 month in the season = efficient managing ?

You think UFA will like that kind of managing ?

Send to europe ? ... it happen so often. Not cuz you once see a team take that option with Huet ... that it mean it's a done deal with any player.

Put them on LITR ??? what ??

You think efficient managing bury player in the AHL ??
We signed Guillaume Latendresse and traded him 2-3 months after, what is the difference? You think that RFA's on the team cares about this?

Effiecient managing = retaining your asset and trading them away as to not lose them for nothing in the end. Let's see ... what do we have in the line up for Tom Kostopoulos, Guillaume Latendresse, Maxim Lapierre, James Winieski, Saku Koivu, Alex Kovalev, Alex Tanguay, Sergei Kostitsyn, Mikhail Grabovski, Francis Bouillon, Mike Komisarek, Mike Ribeiro, Micheal Ryder? I'm pretty sure we can find a roster spot for most of these guys and our season would be much different if we didn't wasted those assets.

It's not me that trades Ryan McDonagh for Gomez. It's not me that traded Spacek for a guy who earns more and for longer. Or signed Spacek in the first place.

An error does not fix another error. It's only 2 errors piling up and keeping Gomez on the ice right now is an error as muc has Kaberle is another one.

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03-08-2012, 02:48 PM
  #63
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When Markov re-injured himself last season, the doctors where saying that he needed a full year for recovery. So that meant he was not going to be ready until december of this year.

Medias quickly forgot that when the team announced that Markov "might" be ready for the beginning of the season. We've been waiting for Markov this whole season.

If Markov would of been ready in october as hoped. You either trade Wisnieski or Spacek. Or you put them on the LITR, send them in Europe, AHL...

If you want to keep waiting for Markov... that's your thing.

I'm talking abotu efficient managing and how to not waste assets that are part of your club. We keep letting guys go on the UFA for nothing when they are still worthwhile player and we should be trading htem away instead. Everyone are always speaking that we need a Paul Holmgren... well that's the kind of managing he does.

You get your team ready for NOW and deal with issues when they arrises.
They said 9-12 months. So August to November.

He was skating back in May and June so no reason to think he wouldn't be ready to start the year. If anything in the past Markov has come back sooner than projected dates.

The medical side screwed it up, they should have found the inflammation and cause of it before December. That's what caused him to miss 70 games instead of 10-12.

If Holmgren was that smart they would have had a better goalie than Leighton the year they went to the finals. With "solid" goaltending they win the cup.

You make no sense at all. You can't just put guys like Wisniewski and Spacek on LITR for no reason. Spacek even if you were to send him to AHL or Europe still has full cap hit as a 35+.

Trading Wisniewski would have been hard at the money he cost, PLUs it would be hard to fit that type of contract under the cap in October as moost teams have already spent to the cap or their internal budget, not to mention trading a guy 2 months after signing him would be hard since most big contract carry NTC's nowadays and it would make it hard dealing with future players. All around bad idea.

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03-08-2012, 02:50 PM
  #64
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Not so smart it turns out. Spacek is on a 35+ contract, if you waive him he goes to Hamilton.... and his cap hit still counts. We could use more "smart" management like that.
It only applies players who have signed their contract after they were 35. Spacek was 34 when he signed his contract with the Canadiens. Your point is?

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03-08-2012, 02:52 PM
  #65
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We signed Guillaume Latendresse and traded him 2-3 months after, what is the difference? You think that RFA's on the team cares about this?
.
I did not even read the rest...

because if You do not understand the difference between:

Signing a RFA, then trading him 1 day after (which happen often)

and Signing a UFA, then trading him after 1-2 month...
(which almost never happen)

I give up.

Have fun.

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03-08-2012, 02:52 PM
  #66
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Markov's contract does not apply to the salary cap and the Canadiens still had a 2-3M$ cushion even with Markov contract counting.

So really straight off the bat, after calculating Cole contract in our cap. We had 8M$ or so.

Don't tell me that with 8M$ in free space yo ucan't find a mean to accomodate Hamrlik and Wisniewski's contract in your cap...

We also managed to trade Spacek away... maybe we would of gotten something else then Kaberle if we needed more salary space. (without adding that Kaberle earns more then Spacek and for 2 more years).

Did the Blue Jackets recieve a trade that was worth their while for Wisnieski? Was he reallyo n the market to begin with? Sooo given your logic... No one wanted the gross contract of Rick Nash right?

So in the end we really coud of signed Markov, Cole, Hamrlik and Wisnieski without much, if any issues...
Maybe I'm not understanding. How did you predict that Markov's salary would be off the books the whole year? How did you predict Spacek being traded? There's no way we could have signed Wisniewski before the season You only get cap relief as the season goes on

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03-08-2012, 02:53 PM
  #67
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It only applies players who have signed their contract after they were 35. Spacek was 34 when he signed his contract with the Canadiens. Your point is?
http://capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=1...64%2C300%2C000

Spacek is listed as a 35+. 3 year deal signed July 2009 after he turned 35.

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03-08-2012, 02:53 PM
  #68
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It only applies players who have signed their contract after they were 35. Spacek was 34 when he signed his contract with the Canadiens. Your point is?
Spacek is on a 35+ contract ... but nice try... again

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03-08-2012, 02:56 PM
  #69
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It only applies players who have signed their contract after they were 35. Spacek was 34 when he signed his contract with the Canadiens. Your point is?
Capgeek.com is your friend. Look here:

http://www.capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=10

That was covered ad infinitum over the offseason when everyone wanted to ditch Spacek for a bag of pucks or bury him in the minors. 35+ contract. Can't do it.

So aside from that major flaw, are you honestly telling me this is what you would have brought to the opening day roster:

Gomez $7,357,143
Cammalleri $6,000,000
Plekanec $5,000,000
Gionta $5,000,000
Cole $4,500,000
Kostitsyn $3,250,000
Pacioretty $1,625,000
Moen $1,500,000
Eller $1,270,833
Engqvist $900,000
Desharnais $850,000
Darche $700,000
White $625,000

Markov $5,750,000
Wizniewski $5,500,000
Spacek $3,833,333
Hamrlik $3,500,000
Gorges $2,500,000
Gill $2,250,000
Subban $875,000
Emelin $984,200

Price $2,750,000
Budaj $1,150,000
Buyouts $500,000

Total cap hit = $68,170,509

You would be almost $4 million over the cap. As I said, you're not signing Cole if you load up on overpaid defensemen. You're also not getting Emelin over here knowing there's absolutely no room for him. You also lose Weber on waivers since you've got way too many D on the roster.

So, even with perfect hindsight, your plan is a mess. What happens if Markov is ready opening night or late October or early November? You need to lose $4 million in salary instantly, without taking any back. Good luck.

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03-08-2012, 02:56 PM
  #70
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They said 9-12 months. So August to November.

He was skating back in May and June so no reason to think he wouldn't be ready to start the year. If anything in the past Markov has come back sooner than projected dates.

The medical side screwed it up, they should have found the inflammation and cause of it before December. That's what caused him to miss 70 games instead of 10-12.

If Holmgren was that smart they would have had a better goalie than Leighton the year they went to the finals. With "solid" goaltending they win the cup.

You make no sense at all. You can't just put guys like Wisniewski and Spacek on LITR for no reason. Spacek even if you were to send him to AHL or Europe still has full cap hit as a 35+.

Trading Wisniewski would have been hard at the money he cost, PLUs it would be hard to fit that type of contract under the cap in October as moost teams have already spent to the cap or their internal budget, not to mention trading a guy 2 months after signing him would be hard since most big contract carry NTC's nowadays and it would make it hard dealing with future players. All around bad idea.
As pointed out, Spacek was 34 when he signed his contract. The full cap hit only applies to player who signs contract IF they are 35 or older.

Implying that the Blackhawks were not a legit team and the Flyers only got beaten because of goaltending and not because the Blackahwks were equally as good or better up front, defense and in the net.

Markov was skating on one leg in june. It was evident that somethign was wrong with his knee. He couldn't walk by himself.

The Canadiens were not at the ceiling in october, as a matter of fact they had around 6-8M$ of free cap space at that point. We're now sitting on 11M$ of free cap space. It's pretty hard to fit Wisnieski's salary somewhere in that free space, right?

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03-08-2012, 02:58 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Capgeek.com is your friend. Look here:

http://www.capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=10

That was covered ad infinitum over the offseason when everyone wanted to ditch Spacek for a bag of pucks or bury him in the minors. 35+ contract. Can't do it.

So aside from that major flaw, are you honestly telling me this is what you would have brought to the opening day roster:

Gomez $7,357,143
Cammalleri $6,000,000
Plekanec $5,000,000
Gionta $5,000,000
Cole $4,500,000
Kostitsyn $3,250,000
Pacioretty $1,625,000
Moen $1,500,000
Eller $1,270,833
Engqvist $900,000
Desharnais $850,000
Darche $700,000
White $625,000

Markov $5,750,000
Wizniewski $5,500,000
Spacek $3,833,333
Hamrlik $3,500,000
Gorges $2,500,000
Gill $2,250,000
Subban $875,000
Emelin $984,200

Price $2,750,000
Budaj $1,150,000
Buyouts $500,000

Total cap hit = $68,170,509

You would be almost $4 million over the cap. As I said, you're not signing Cole if you load up on overpaid defensemen. You're also not getting Emelin over here knowing there's absolutely no room for him. You also lose Weber on waivers since you've got way too many D on the roster.

So, even with perfect hindsight, your plan is a mess. What happens if Markov is ready opening night or late October or early November? You need to lose $4 million in salary instantly, without taking any back. Good luck.
Markov's salary doesn't count, he is on LTIR. Problem solved. Putting Spacek or Gomez in the AHL is obviously an issue right? Gomez has been such the key player for us that we REALLY but REALLLY need him on the line up at all cost....

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03-08-2012, 03:04 PM
  #72
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Spacek is on a 35+ contract ... but nice try... again
Should of looked at Spacek birgthday first, which is the 11th of february, lolme indeed.

So then in my example, you may still get rid of Gomez and if you can't find a trade for Wisniewski, you put him on LITR or waiver if you can't get a trade for him. You can also put up a trade with other pleyrs then those I named. We ended up trading Cammalleri and Kosittsyn for less cap hit...

Seriously, if you doN,t want to find a solution, you won't find one, there's always one for the guy who is looking ofr it.

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03-08-2012, 03:13 PM
  #73
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
So, even with perfect hindsight, your plan is a mess. What happens if Markov is ready opening night or late October or early November? You need to lose $4 million in salary instantly, without taking any back. Good luck.
To be honest, this is something I wish management was more proactive with.
I rather have a ''who to cut'' problem, as opposed to ''who to get now'' due to injury.

I much rather take a risk on starting a season over the cap, and then adjust via trade, waiver, or send down, than to start the season with your 7th-8th Dman.

But, if you want to play GM, and say we re-sign Wiz and Hammer, then there's no need for Gill to be re-signed, and obviously Campoli.
So already, that takes a couple millions off. Then, all you have to deal with is Spacek. Ship him out, I'm sure there would be takers.
At the very worst, you can choose not to re-sign Hammer as well.

To make it clear, I didn't even want Wiz re-signed. I don't think he's a good defenseman. But, just saying, it could have been done.

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Old
03-08-2012, 03:16 PM
  #74
llamateizer
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Originally Posted by Issacar View Post
When Markov re-injured himself last season, the doctors where saying that he needed a full year for recovery. So that meant he was not going to be ready until december of this year.

Medias quickly forgot that when the team announced that Markov "might" be ready for the beginning of the season. We've been waiting for Markov this whole season.

If Markov would of been ready in october as hoped. You either trade Wisnieski or Spacek. Or you put them on the LITR, send them in Europe, AHL...

If you want to keep waiting for Markov... that's your thing.

I'm talking abotu efficient managing and how to not waste assets that are part of your club. We keep letting guys go on the UFA for nothing when they are still worthwhile player and we should be trading htem away instead. Everyone are always speaking that we need a Paul Holmgren... well that's the kind of managing he does.

You get your team ready for NOW and deal with issues when they arrises.
GM Options --> Send to AHL

its that simple.

you cannot put a player in LTIR without being injured

Its not efficient managing

you sign a 40 millions $ to dump him 2 month later?

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Old
03-08-2012, 03:21 PM
  #75
Issacar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chewBACHa View Post
GM Options --> Send to AHL

its that simple.

you cannot put a player in LTIR without being injured

Its not efficient managing

you sign a 40 millions $ to dump him 2 month later?
Lou Lamoriello has placed Valdimir Malakhov (among other palyers) on LITR without them being injured.

Do you want to win or not? If you want to win, do what you have to do, if it means signing 40M$ to dump it 2 months later. So be it. In the first palce it's the team owners who accepted to give the players concrete contracts that could not be bought out... They also accepted a salary cap that prevented teams for trading. If they are dumb enough to put themselves in this situation, they should suck up the contracts like Gomez.

Is it efficient managing to pay a guy 7M$ for 2 goals?

3.5M$ per goals.

I mean, how much is worth David Desharnais now? Compared to Gomez he is worth what? 12M$? (just an exageration, DD is not worth that much, but it's a fair comparisaon given the performances output of both players).


Last edited by Issacar: 03-08-2012 at 03:22 PM. Reason: some typo
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