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Old
03-02-2012, 05:52 PM
  #76
Teufelsdreck
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
That's fan-MAN to you, bucko! Seriously, I'm one of the people who likes Diaz, but because of the player he's gradually becoming. Yes, a big reason our season went into cardiac arrest was our non-existent defense, which included the inexperienced scrambling of Diaz and Emelin. But both their learning curves have impressed me. Emelin's becoming the tough, scary D we all were drooling over, and Diaz is becoming a smart, crisp-passing D whose value is increasing. The Diaz we see now is miles ahead of the guy he was in October. His future upside might not be as big as Emelin, but he's a valuable 5th or 6th already, and might move up the charts a bit with more experience.

Weber is... interesting. Still very young, with flashes of hard-hitting aggressiveness, offensive ability and a great shot. Balance that with his mistakes and what does that give us? Can't say yet. He's still learning and refining his game. But the cliche says that defensemen don't mature until later.
Woe-ber doesn't appear to be any better than he was last season, so how do you think he's improved? Fans on this site are running out of patience with him.

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03-03-2012, 02:39 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
As you say, Diaz is a rookie. He deserves another look. Woe-ber? My sobriquet for him says it all. He's used up his chances with the Habs.
how is it that you completely ignore the ~3 years + 6 extra seasons of professional hockey when comparing the two athletes?

Yes, Diaz is an NHL "rookie", but he's been playing professional hockey against men for 8 years, and is ~ 3years older than Weber.


Do you honestly think that with 3 years of physical maturation & 3 (let alone 6) more seasons of professional experience, Weber won't improve at all?


the difference between the two players, right now, is (imo) marginal. Diaz, if anything, shows a bit more composure with the puck, and a bit better decision making in the defensive zone... both elements that are certainly heavily impacted by age & experience.

I am very curious as to why you dismiss or ignore the age/experience factor when evaluating a 22 year old player vs a 25 year old player (who, having played in Europe, hit the professional leagues far far sooner)


* and as an interesting coincidence, take a look at the statistical "jump" Diaz made from age 22 (2008-09) to 23 (2009-10)... i know a stat line is far from the be all-end all, but more than doubling one's offensive output, as a dman, and subsequently improving on that total, certainly points to a noticeable improvement (if in production/offensive impact alone).

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=76283


Last edited by Miller Time: 03-03-2012 at 02:44 AM.
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03-03-2012, 02:51 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Woe-ber doesn't appear to be any better than he was last season, so how do you think he's improved? Fans on this site are running out of patience with him.
Fans on this site also though anyone would do better than JM
Fans on this site also think McGuire would be a great GM
Fans on this site also...


well, you get my point...

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03-09-2012, 12:50 AM
  #79
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Do we have some news about the Diaz injury?

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03-09-2012, 12:57 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
how is it that you completely ignore the ~3 years + 6 extra seasons of professional hockey when comparing the two athletes?

Yes, Diaz is an NHL "rookie", but he's been playing professional hockey against men for 8 years, and is ~ 3years older than Weber.


Do you honestly think that with 3 years of physical maturation & 3 (let alone 6) more seasons of professional experience, Weber won't improve at all?


the difference between the two players, right now, is (imo) marginal. Diaz, if anything, shows a bit more composure with the puck, and a bit better decision making in the defensive zone... both elements that are certainly heavily impacted by age & experience.

I am very curious as to why you dismiss or ignore the age/experience factor when evaluating a 22 year old player vs a 25 year old player (who, having played in Europe, hit the professional leagues far far sooner)


* and as an interesting coincidence, take a look at the statistical "jump" Diaz made from age 22 (2008-09) to 23 (2009-10)... i know a stat line is far from the be all-end all, but more than doubling one's offensive output, as a dman, and subsequently improving on that total, certainly points to a noticeable improvement (if in production/offensive impact alone).

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=76283
Can we afford to let Weber develop on our thin defense for 3 years? Does he have that much potential? Can't we just sign a mostly defensive defensemen to surround Subban, Diaz and Markov?

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03-09-2012, 01:16 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Can we afford to let Weber develop on our thin defense for 3 years? Does he have that much potential? Can't we just sign a mostly defensive defensemen to surround Subban, Diaz and Markov?
that's a consideration for sure...

but honestly, btw Diaz/Weber, I'm more inclined to keep Weber (and a big part of that lies in the reality that we could quite likely get a much MUCH better return for Diaz, than for Weber, right now, and I strongly believe that within 1-2 seasons, Weber will be playing as good/better than Diaz).

in the short-term of next season, it MAY be a slight "donwgrade", but if we add assets in the process it's a positive overall move. Trading Weber for peanuts, or pulling a Pouliot and letting him go for nothing because Gauthier figures we are fine without him, would be a waste of an asset that has a real chance/likelihood of appreciating in the near future.


personally, I'd keep both Diaz/Weber.

Imo, nothing wrong with:

Subban - Gorges
??? - Markov
Diaz - Emelin
Weber

as long as the ??? is a solid defensive dman who can handler ~20min/night (Stuart/Jackman type).

If the ??? is Kaberle, than having Weber as the depth dman is far more problematic... but any reasonable GM would move Kaberle asap, especially if Markov is expected to play next year (Markov going LTIR again or retiring, would be the only scenario whereby Kaberle in a habs uniform next year could make any sense).

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03-09-2012, 01:39 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Can we afford to let Weber develop on our thin defense for 3 years? Does he have that much potential? Can't we just sign a mostly defensive defensemen to surround Subban, Diaz and Markov?
Dunno, considering he's 1 year removed from UFA status and that there isnt much difference between he and Weber, I'd rather keep the younger one with more RFA years left.


Besides, it's not like our defense is any worse since Diaz is out of the line-up.

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03-09-2012, 02:25 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
that's a consideration for sure...

but honestly, btw Diaz/Weber, I'm more inclined to keep Weber (and a big part of that lies in the reality that we could quite likely get a much MUCH better return for Diaz, than for Weber, right now, and I strongly believe that within 1-2 seasons, Weber will be playing as good/better than Diaz).

in the short-term of next season, it MAY be a slight "donwgrade", but if we add assets in the process it's a positive overall move. Trading Weber for peanuts, or pulling a Pouliot and letting him go for nothing because Gauthier figures we are fine without him, would be a waste of an asset that has a real chance/likelihood of appreciating in the near future.


personally, I'd keep both Diaz/Weber.

Imo, nothing wrong with:

Subban - Gorges
??? - Markov
Diaz - Emelin
Weber

as long as the ??? is a solid defensive dman who can handler ~20min/night (Stuart/Jackman type).

If the ??? is Kaberle, than having Weber as the depth dman is far more problematic... but any reasonable GM would move Kaberle asap, especially if Markov is expected to play next year (Markov going LTIR again or retiring, would be the only scenario whereby Kaberle in a habs uniform next year could make any sense).
Kaberle>>>>>>>>Weber

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03-09-2012, 07:18 AM
  #84
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Next year, Diaz and Emelin should be, if we hope to have a decent season, our 6th and 7th dmen at best at the start of the season. We could keep Weber as a 8th dman, or try to send him down through waivers. Though he might not like it.

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03-09-2012, 07:21 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Dunno, considering he's 1 year removed from UFA status and that there isnt much difference between he and Weber, I'd rather keep the younger one with more RFA years left.


Besides, it's not like our defense is any worse since Diaz is out of the line-up.
It actually is a lot worse since he's out, and there's no doubt that Diaz is better than Weber. Diaz is actually pretty good defensively. He reminds me a bit of Robidas when he was playing with the Habs.

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03-09-2012, 07:29 AM
  #86
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IMHO Weber is another case of poor development of young players. He was actually playing extremely well at the start of the season.

After a couple of poor plays he went to the press box, AKA Montreal development program. When he did get back on the ice, he played on the wing more than the D.

I really hope the next coaching staff will give him the training and support he needs. I'd hate to see him excel on another team.


Last edited by groovejuice: 03-09-2012 at 07:35 AM.
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Old
03-09-2012, 07:38 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by groovejuice View Post
IMHO Weber is another case of poor development of young players. He was actually playing extremely well at the start of the season.

After a couple of poor plays he went to the press box, AKA Montreal development program. When he did get back on the ice, he played on the wing more than the D.

I really hope the next coaching staff will give him the training and support he needs. I'd hate to see him excel on another team.
I agree. How can you develop as a d-man when you're either not playing or when you are, you're playing wing?

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03-09-2012, 08:09 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
I agree. How can you develop as a d-man when you're either not playing or when you are, you're playing wing?
Weber was one of our 4 best dman in the playoffs last season.. He picked up really good in the first 10 games of the season... Then, brainfart happened and JM got him to play the wing. Or warm the seat or eat hot-dog. How can you build some consistency and confidence while being moved everywhere. Plus (As wrong as it may sound..) he's far more grittier than Diaz. And has a cannon of a shot. READ MOST PRECISE SHOT ON OUR BLUELINE. AND MORE POWERFULL PLEASE. He just needs to work things up. Like any Dman they're longer to develop. A dumb GM would trade him. A wise one would let him develop. I like Diaz too. Kaberle needs to go via trade next year. And don't sign another Crapoli. Then we're all good.

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03-09-2012, 08:17 AM
  #89
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I like Diaz and think Weber can be ok as an NHL defenseman too. But you just can't have a defense that has all of Diaz, Weber, Kaberle, and Campoli on it at the same time. Too much of too little of certain elements there.

Unfortunately, it kind of looks like we'll have 3 of them back next year again, where I would have liked to see just 2. Diaz in my starting 6, and Weber as the #7 guy who fills in when one of the more offensive-minded types is out.

I find Diaz is quick and agile and while he gets overpowered in any physical battle, he'll learn the tricks of the trade enough to compensate. It is difficult for him to play without somebody to shelter him; Emelin will eventually be a good partner perhaps, but for now also makes too many mistakes to be a perfect fit, so we just have to make do in the meantime. Weber can play with a bit more jam at times, but also seems to lose focus, which worries me. He isn't as quick either, so it is going to be harder for him to compensate for his shortcomings.

They're doing fine overall. I never *expected* Diaz to be an NHL regular this season, but he has been, and deservedly so, so he's ahead of the curve afaic.

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03-09-2012, 08:49 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
I agree. How can you develop as a d-man when you're either not playing or when you are, you're playing wing?
Please stop that.

If he has not cemented the fact that he is one of the top 6 D on the roster .... after all the games he has played for the Habs/Bulldogs, after all the practices... after all the meetings....

That HAS to tell you something. No matter how much of a rocket of a shot he has in the warm up, he does not get into a position to use it in game situations, so his incredible lack of poise in the defensive end cannot be over looked.

The cons out weight the pros. Simple as that.

Everyone wants every draft pick to be the next Datsyuk, the next Pronger... but the truth is some players just cannot deliver on the promise they showed at other levels.

Weber has had MORE than enough attention and time. This is what he is.

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03-09-2012, 08:54 AM
  #91
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Please stop that.

If he has not cemented the fact that he is one of the top 6 D on the roster .... after all the games he has played for the Habs/Bulldogs, after all the practices... after all the meetings....

That HAS to tell you something. No matter how much of a rocket of a shot he has in the warm up, he does not get into a position to use it in game situations, so his incredible lack of poise in the defensive end cannot be over looked.

The cons out weight the pros. Simple as that.

Everyone wants every draft pick to be the next Datsyuk, the next Pronger... but the truth is some players just cannot deliver on the promise they showed at other levels.

Weber has had MORE than enough attention and time. This is what he is.
Yep... I also remember a certain Josh Gorges playing right wing under Carbo.

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03-09-2012, 09:36 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Yep... I also remember a certain Josh Gorges playing right wing under Carbo.
Same for Streit, but this has been mentioned a lot already. Playing on the wing doesn't translate into being a bad player. Weber is the youngest guy on defense, so he ends up playing the wing. No big deal.

I've liked his play the last few games, getting more ice time and more reponsibilities. He's not "there" yet, but I still have faith that if given more time to develop in a more stable environment, he could develop into a good player.

I hope the Canadiens do not give up on him.

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03-09-2012, 09:47 AM
  #93
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Yep... I also remember a certain Josh Gorges playing right wing under Carbo.
Did that drag on three seasons? No, eh? Wonder why? Is it because Gorges can actual not hurt his team when playing in the defensive end? Yeah, eh...

I too am not a fan of playing guys out of position, but to compare Weber and Gorges, and what they bring to the table is just a distraction.

Weber was the hope of the big shot on the PP, while keeping up in the D end. He passes up more shots than he takes, does not create a lane, and is simply not doing it in his own end.
Gorges, is a defensive D with character.

A team needs both of those roles to be filled. Defensive D's and offensive D's. The trick is offensive D's that do not cost you in the defensive end, and finding the right mix (skill, size, age, style) between all your roster players.

Maybe Weber will become a full time player, but he has not shown the promise of it in his game to make me a believer.

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03-09-2012, 09:50 AM
  #94
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Did that drag on three seasons? No, eh? Wonder why? Is it because Gorges can actual not hurt his team when playing in the defensive end? Yeah, eh...

I too am not a fan of playing guys out of position, but to compare Weber and Gorges, and what they bring to the table is just a distraction.

Weber was the hope of the big shot on the PP, while keeping up in the D end. He passes up more shots than he takes, does not create a lane, and is simply not doing it in his own end.
Gorges, is a defensive D with character.

A team needs both of those roles to be filled. Defensive D's and offensive D's. The trick is offensive D's that do not cost you in the defensive end, and finding the right mix (skill, size, age, style) between all your roster players.

Maybe Weber will become a full time player, but he has not shown the promise of it in his game to make me a believer.
The problem this year is we had too many skilled guys and PMD's and not enough stay at home types.

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03-09-2012, 09:56 AM
  #95
hockeyfan2k11
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Originally Posted by Joe Cole View Post
Please stop that.

If he has not cemented the fact that he is one of the top 6 D on the roster .... after all the games he has played for the Habs/Bulldogs, after all the practices... after all the meetings....

That HAS to tell you something. No matter how much of a rocket of a shot he has in the warm up, he does not get into a position to use it in game situations, so his incredible lack of poise in the defensive end cannot be over looked.

The cons out weight the pros. Simple as that.

Everyone wants every draft pick to be the next Datsyuk, the next Pronger... but the truth is some players just cannot deliver on the promise they showed at other levels.

Weber has had MORE than enough attention and time. This is what he is.
Stop what? Why do we constantly play dmen at wing? Why don't we allow young players to make mistakes? Weber has not cemented himself as a top 6 dman but the guy has not really gotten much confidence from the coaching staff either.

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03-09-2012, 10:24 AM
  #96
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Stop what? Why do we constantly play dmen at wing? Why don't we allow young players to make mistakes? Weber has not cemented himself as a top 6 dman but the guy has not really gotten much confidence from the coaching staff either.
Stop being a cheerleader. He needs to grab the job with both hands.

If he does, great.

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03-09-2012, 10:30 AM
  #97
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The problem this year is we had too many skilled guys and PMD's and not enough stay at home types.
I agree.

How many of the guys auditioning for the PMD spot do you feel are keepers?

I can think of one. Subban.

Weber, Diaz, Campoli, Kaberle....none of these are my cup of tea. Kaberle has racked up some points despite his frustratingly gutless play in the defensive end and softie passes in transition ... and Diaz has one more year to become legit...

Emelin brings an element no other player does from the blueline. If he smartens up his positioning in the defensive end...he will continue to become a force.

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03-09-2012, 10:35 AM
  #98
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Do we have some news about the Diaz injury?
i would like to know that as well because there is ZERO justification that Crapoli is playing instead him otherwise. We are supposed to be building for the next year but instead they are riding the vets.

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03-09-2012, 10:35 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by habscup View Post
Kaberle>>>>>>>>Weber
23 year old, 850K Weber for 2012-2013 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 35yr old, 4.25M$ Kaberle




some like to pretend that the cap means nothing, or that young players don't/won't develop. if your in that camp, then of course we won't ever agree.


Weber as a 5-6-7 dman for the next 2 years, @ a <1M$ cap hit, is FAR more useful to us than Kaberle as a 5-6-7 dman (with extra PP time) @ 4.25M$ for the next 2 yrs, AINEC


eliminate the cap all together, then perhaps things are a bit different, though personally I'm still bullish on Weber's potential progress over next 2-3 seasons.

but if we didn't have to concern ourselves with managing the cap, then sure, you can emphasize the overpaid/declining veterans, and ride them out, replacing as needed by overpaying for replacements as needed (the way the Laffs stayed competitive in early 2000's) while ignoring the need to develop internally.

cap system impacts all player evaluations, ignoring that leads to the ugly mess we've created for ourselves right now (even though in recent years, many posters would lament talk of the cap implications, and mockingly suggest that cap space doesn't win games... as we've seen this year, neither does overpaid declining veterans!)

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03-09-2012, 10:37 AM
  #100
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Stop being a cheerleader. He needs to grab the job with both hands.

If he does, great.
Cheerleader? I don't even like the guy. Just my unbiased opinion.

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