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Subban sophomore slump?

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Old
03-09-2012, 09:40 AM
  #26
zzoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
Are you basing this only on Subban's offence?

His defensive play is head and shoulders above what it was last year. He plays against top opposition and still has respectable production, while improving his +/- to an even rating on a team that is FILLED with minuses.

I don't see a sophmore slump, I see a dman who focussed more on his defensive game.

We can't forget that the majority of this team, with the worst PP in the NHL, has had too many slumping p[layers to make a true judgement on his offensive production.
No, I'm not solely based on his offensive stats.
I agree that Subban has improved his defensive in the second-half, but he was horrible in the first half. We judge a player in the whole season, right ? Not just the last 20 games.

And I don't like the fact that he has taken too much penalties:
1. Staubitz - 97 PIM
2. Subban - 82
3. Bourque - 56
10. Gorges (2nd highest D): 32

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Old
03-09-2012, 09:40 AM
  #27
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
50+ points is not realistic for a 2nd year player. PK did a lot of damage on the PP, but guess who he had with him? Wiz. A guy where teams had to respect his shot. That left PK open quite a bit. When teams took Wiz's shot away, he'd dump it to PK and bingo. Going into the season without Markov and teams keying in on Subban, I'm not sure how you think 50+ points is realistic.

I expected 40 from PK and he'll probably finish with 35.
I don't know what you mean. Like PG, I expected him to play with Markov on the PP this year. And I expect him to play with Markov on the PP next season too. Like I said, all part of the "understandable reasons" why he didn't actually hit those 50+ points.

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03-09-2012, 10:15 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't know what you mean. Like PG, I expected him to play with Markov on the PP this year. And I expect him to play with Markov on the PP next season too. Like I said, all part of the "understandable reasons" why he didn't actually hit those 50+ points.
I didn't expect Markov to be around, though.

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Old
03-09-2012, 10:22 AM
  #29
White Spy
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PK Subban just became the 1st Habs D to score 30+ pts in his 1st two seasons since Chelios/Kurvers in 1984,85

Credit to @HabsWatch for pointing it out

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03-09-2012, 10:44 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by zzoo View Post
No, I'm not solely based on his offensive stats.
I agree that Subban has improved his defensive in the second-half, but he was horrible in the first half. We judge a player in the whole season, right ? Not just the last 20 games.

And I don't like the fact that he has taken too much penalties:
1. Staubitz - 97 PIM
2. Subban - 82
3. Bourque - 56
10. Gorges (2nd highest D): 32
...playing against top opposition, which he didn't do last year. Subban wasn't worse defensively in the first half than he was last year. He played against better opponents in a less favorable context. Had Gill still been able to play even-strength hockey, you would be looking at more points and way less than 82 PIM. Jumping on the ice with Plekanec and Gorges for a D-zone draw instead of with DD and Kaberle for an O-zone draw will tend to do that.

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03-09-2012, 10:51 AM
  #31
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He's only disappointing in that he wasn't at the same level as the last couple months of the regular season and playoffs.

Of course he was playing at a top-5ish defenseman in the league then considering he was playing shutdown minutes while luggish Gill around on even strength and was at an elite level both on the power play and penalty kill. So he's slumping from that.


As far as how many defensive mistakes he's made this year, that really needs to be put into context of what really matters 5 on 5, which is pushing the play towards the other net. He's +10 on 5 on 5 this season playing the toughest assignments and the only defender on his team positive in shot metrics. That's really impressive for a second year guy.

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03-09-2012, 10:53 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzoo View Post

And I don't like the fact that he has taken too much penalties:
1. Staubitz - 97 PIM
2. Subban - 82
3. Bourque - 56
10. Gorges (2nd highest D): 32
Comon man.... P.K has 2
Fights and I don't know how many penalties tha came with after-whistle scrums. He's way better at controlling his stick than he was last season.

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03-09-2012, 10:56 AM
  #33
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subban plays on the edge. he's going to take penalties. some of them can be avoided but it's going to happen. deal with it

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03-09-2012, 10:59 AM
  #34
Kriss E
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I have said it all year long, he's not having a sophomore slump. He's playing well, all things considered.

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03-09-2012, 11:00 AM
  #35
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He plays physical, our fans aren't used to that.

Of course he's going to take penalties, and I for one will take that over Kaberle's Lady Bing performance all day every day.

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03-09-2012, 11:12 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzoo View Post
No, I'm not solely based on his offensive stats.
I agree that Subban has improved his defensive in the second-half, but he was horrible in the first half. We judge a player in the whole season, right ? Not just the last 20 games.

And I don't like the fact that he has taken too much penalties:
1. Staubitz - 97 PIM
2. Subban - 82
3. Bourque - 56
10. Gorges (2nd highest D): 32
He plays big minutes, that inflates his penalties totals.

The other thing is that he's great at drawing penalties for a defenseman. His penalty differential, which matters a lot more than just straight penalties taken, is pretty respectable. What people are calling a sign of undisciplined play is really a sign of physical engagement.

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03-09-2012, 11:17 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzoo View Post
No, I'm not solely based on his offensive stats.
I agree that Subban has improved his defensive in the second-half, but he was horrible in the first half. We judge a player in the whole season, right ? Not just the last 20 games.

And I don't like the fact that he has taken too much penalties:
1. Staubitz - 97 PIM
2. Subban - 82
3. Bourque - 56
10. Gorges (2nd highest D): 32
You do realize his penalty minutes are down from last season?

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Old
03-09-2012, 11:40 AM
  #38
LyleOdelein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Comon man.... P.K has 2
Fights and I don't know how many penalties tha came with after-whistle scrums. He's way better at controlling his stick than he was last season.
Here's the breakdown:

- 10 PIMs resulted from fights (Marchand and Wheeler).
- 18 PIMs were coincidental minors.
- 2 PIMs came with 2 seconds left in a 5-1 games.
- 52 PIMs put the team down a man.

There's also the earlier mentioned point that Subban's penalty differential reflects well on him, which stands as a much better measure of the value of a player's discipline, IMO.

PK could benefit from picking his spots a little better (the penalty on Omark last night is a great example of that), but he's not really hurting the team as much as the straight PIM total suggests.

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03-09-2012, 11:49 AM
  #39
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He will be fine he isn't playing to the level the pundits and fans had expected but it should iron itself out. I have a feeling he is playing better since Gill has left he is playing out of his shadow ironically as that may be lol.

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Old
03-09-2012, 12:00 PM
  #40
Valois
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Subban's overall game has improved from what I remember, particularly in the second half of the year.

One question I have is about the physical edge of his game. I don't really recall last year's specifics unfortunately for this, but are the highlight reel hits from Subban this year a new aspect to his game?

I remember being really impressed at his physical play this year and never really noticing before.

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03-09-2012, 12:13 PM
  #41
Et le But
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valois View Post
Subban's overall game has improved from what I remember, particularly in the second half of the year.

One question I have is about the physical edge of his game. I don't really recall last year's specifics unfortunately for this, but are the highlight reel hits from Subban this year a new aspect to his game?

I remember being really impressed at his physical play this year and never really noticing before.
It was there last year, if anything he's gotten better in the past few months at picking his spots. Last year he overdid it to the point where it hurt his positioning, the first half of this season he didn't play physical enough, he seems to be finding the perfect middle ground.

If this is Subban's "slump" year, it's going to be scary seeing him next year.

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03-09-2012, 12:39 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzoo View Post
No, I'm not solely based on his offensive stats.
I agree that Subban has improved his defensive in the second-half, but he was horrible in the first half. We judge a player in the whole season, right ? Not just the last 20 games.

And I don't like the fact that he has taken too much penalties:
1. Staubitz - 97 PIM
2. Subban - 82
3. Bourque - 56
10. Gorges (2nd highest D): 32
best pk in the league, who cares?!

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03-09-2012, 12:49 PM
  #43
zzoo
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Regarding Subban penalties, assuming that we remove 10 minutes from 2 fightings, and 10 minutes from penalties after whistle. He ends up with 62 PIM (= 82 - 20). That is twice as much Gorges (32 PIM). It's not 8 or 10 minutes more, the minute is double the closest D.

I know that some people here love Subban a lot, especially after his recent great performance, but we have to face the fact that he's taking way too much penalties.

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03-09-2012, 12:54 PM
  #44
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Great year for the teams best dman !!!

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Old
03-09-2012, 12:57 PM
  #45
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzoo View Post
Regarding Subban penalties, assuming that we remove 10 minutes from 2 fightings, and 10 minutes from penalties after whistle. He ends up with 62 PIM (= 82 - 20). That is twice as much Gorges (32 PIM). It's not 8 or 10 minutes more, the minute is double the closest D.

I know that some people here love Subban a lot, especially after his recent great performance, but we have to face the fact that he's taking way too much penalties.
He's also our only player that plays with an edge.
Emelin hits hard, but he he's not chirpy. Outside these two guys, we have no physicality from the back end.
I'll also gladly take on PK's penalties considering all the good he brings.

He'll learn to be a little more disciplined with time.

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