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Old
03-09-2012, 09:55 AM
  #101
Fitzy
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
The idea is to contend for a cup; not pile up regular season points. Many of believe that we are not well situated to contend with this "defense only" approach. Torts has ostracized anyone who had skill but was not 100% on board with his defensive posture. It's a fundamental problem with his stubborn, inflexible way of doing things; a two game losing streak only serves to get the blood boiling and motivate people to say what they are thinking even when we are winning.

We are allowed to look ahead and project what this team and approach will bring? No?
Who has Torts shipped out that was more skilled than the guys we have now?

Zherdev? Couldn't even get a team to claim him on waiver at 1.1 million. In the KHL
Lisin? Same.
Christensen? c'mon
Wolski? C'mon

Are these skill guys that were going to put us over the top? Literally the only relevant example has been Parenteau, and Tortorella said he would not have minded him back. Sather's call on that one.

There are really no good examples of shipping good skilled players away. Just guys that couldn't cut it in the top 6 who sucked defensively.

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03-09-2012, 10:22 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Who has Torts shipped out that was more skilled than the guys we have now?

Zherdev? Couldn't even get a team to claim him on waiver at 1.1 million. In the KHL
Lisin? Same.
Christensen? c'mon
Wolski? C'mon

Are these skill guys that were going to put us over the top? Literally the only relevant example has been Parenteau, and Tortorella said he would not have minded him back. Sather's call on that one.

There are really no good examples of shipping good skilled players away. Just guys that couldn't cut it in the top 6 who sucked defensively.
Terrific post; spot on. I love how some of our fanbase believes we had all of these skilled offensive players waiting in the wings and Tort's refused to play them because they weren't committed defensively.
Wolski and Christensen were both horse**** and I agree that Parenteau was the only player out of all of them who had any upside offensively.
The success of this team this year is 100% attributable to Tort's coaching, the system he employs and the manner in which our younger prospects have been developed and then indoctrinated into the lineup since he took over; nothing more and nothing less.

I've been saying it since July when we signed Richards, this team does not have anywhere near enough top tier talent to win any other way than grinding it out on a game in game out basis.

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03-09-2012, 10:35 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
The team will win it's share of games through the stretch. The team is built to play a defensive game which keeps the games close.
Turnovers will lose games since the offense has limited capabilities.

Highlights of The season to date:

1)forwards back checking,and not turning the puck over.
2)Defense doesn't get caught much leaving the goalie exposed.
3)The best season Henrik has ever played.

Thoughts...going forward.

A)PP is still a problem.
B)the defense is overrated. The front line and backstop have been making each one look like hall of famers.
c)Nash should have been a Ranger.
Also a great post and right on the money. A team's defense is only as good as the overall team commitment to backcheck and the performance of the goalie which has been great all season.

Granted our defensemen our all young and talented but with the exception of McDonagh, none of them are that overly gifted.

The way Tort's has this team playing all season is the only way they can be competitive and win.

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03-09-2012, 10:44 AM
  #104
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OK, so we had a subpar performance against the only team that seems to have our number. Even though Biron wasn't great, we STILL have not lost a game all year due to bad goaltending (by my count).

Not enough grind, turnovers in the neutral zone, some bad rebound control, looking forward to the Chicago game, in first place by 8 points, on the road etc etc etc.

Strangely, I found myself missing Dubi. Stralman seems to have regressed, Staal less than mediocre.

Did anybody notice Gilroy out there? He looked downright awful at times, I thought he would blossom into at least a top 4 D- not so much.

Oh, and Do The Blue- greatest avatar ever! Nicely done sir.

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03-09-2012, 10:53 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Do you think that the Blues are also feelign this way? Hitch is not an offensive coach. Yet, no problem with "defense first" over there.
Do you know whether he has scratched and sent down guys with skill simply because they did not play his systemt to a tee? I don't. Until we know that we cannot make a comparison. Defense first is smart. I have a feeling Torts would have scratched Gretzky or lambasted him until he gave up his scoring prowess to play strong away from the puck. Good teams have balance and that means snipers who snipe. Pierre Larouche could never have played for Torts and that would have been to Torts' detriment.

That's the issue; it's the rigidity and stubborness that is having a negative effect on the roster and now on the team's performance.

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03-09-2012, 11:00 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Who has Torts shipped out that was more skilled than the guys we have now?

Zherdev? Couldn't even get a team to claim him on waiver at 1.1 million. In the KHL
Lisin? Same.
Christensen? c'mon
Wolski? C'mon

Are these skill guys that were going to put us over the top? Literally the only relevant example has been Parenteau, and Tortorella said he would not have minded him back. Sather's call on that one.

There are really no good examples of shipping good skilled players away. Just guys that couldn't cut it in the top 6 who sucked defensively.
Wolski
Zucc
Avery

And whether they suck defensively is based on what we hear from Torts. The one metric that is often used to evaluate defensive responsibility (+-) is constantly discredited when it is used to support guys who Torts has labeled as not having enough JAM.

for starters. We dress Scott, Boyle, Prust, Rupp every night.Are you kidding me? And this top 6/bottom 6 argument is getting annoying. If a guy can help the team put the puck in the net consistently you need to find a spot for him unless that skill is outweighed by their brutal defense. I think Torts judges on defensive abilities only (for guys who aren't getting huge paychecks) and weeds out those who don't follow his system to a tee even if they can help light the lamp. The three guys mentioned all got screwed in favor of Torts' guys. Guys who suck in the O-zone but are willing to stand in front of a shot. Let's see how this plays out.

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03-09-2012, 11:05 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Terrific post; spot on. I love how some of our fanbase believes we had all of these skilled offensive players waiting in the wings and Tort's refused to play them because they weren't committed defensively.
Wolski and Christensen were both horse**** and I agree that Parenteau was the only player out of all of them who had any upside offensively.
The success of this team this year is 100% attributable to Tort's coaching, the system he employs and the manner in which our younger prospects have been developed and then indoctrinated into the lineup since he took over; nothing more and nothing less.

I've been saying it since July when we signed Richards, this team does not have anywhere near enough top tier talent to win any other way than grinding it out on a game in game out basis.
Christensen was given a fair shot and was crap. Zucc and Wolski were not given a fair shake with this coach and we could use their creativity right now even (and I'm not so sure this is true) if we give up something in the d-zone. The idea is to win the cup. I couldn't care less where we are in the standings. Torts needs to be building a Stanley Cup winner and removing all skill in favor of having two 4th lines that are willing to march in step with his philosophy will not win anything. The game when played at the highest level (stanley cup winning level) is about structure, skill and goaltending. We don't have the skill part and Torts has extracated a few pieces that could have helped. I hope Krieder, Thomas, Miller, Yogan, Fasth and St. Croix become players. Otherwise we will be waiting a long time for another cup.

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03-09-2012, 11:37 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
Do you know whether he has scratched and sent down guys with skill simply because they did not play his systemt to a tee?
Scotty Bowman scratched and would not play anyone that would not play his system to a tee. Skill or no skill. That is how teams are made. Everyone thinking as one. Not allowing for players to have leeway. Ask Campbell/Ron Low/Muckler/Sather/Renney how having some players play one way and others lay a different way worked out for them.
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Until we know that we cannot make a comparison. Defense first is smart.
We DO knwo that system coaches play systems. And, under the successfull ones, if you do nto play within the system, then you do not play. How many Devils played outside of Lemaire's system?
Quote:
I have a feeling Torts would have scratched Gretzky or lambasted him until he gave up his scoring prowess to play strong away from the puck.
Wow
Quote:
Good teams have balance and that means snipers who snipe.
Good teams also play to their strengths and be who they are, not who they are not. And again, they are ALL single minded.
Quote:
Pierre Larouche could never have played for Torts and that would have been to Torts' detriment.
Or Bowman. Or Hitch. Or Lemaire.
Quote:
That's the issue; it's the rigidity and stubborness that is having a negative effect on the roster and now on the team's performance.
let's welcome back the dark years. Where you have players who are held to a specific standard and those who have free reign to do what they want.

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03-09-2012, 11:42 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
And whether they suck defensively is based on what we hear from Torts.
And what we see with our own eyes.
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The one metric that is often used to evaluate defensive responsibility (+-) is constantly discredited when it is used to support guys who Torts has labeled as not having enough JAM.
It is descredited becuase it is faulty. Let's recall Marek Malik's +/-
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We dress Scott, Boyle, Prust, Rupp every night.Are you kidding me?
Scott aside, those players belong in an everyday line up.
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I think Torts judges on defensive abilities only (for guys who aren't getting huge paychecks) and weeds out those who don't follow his system to a tee even if they can help light the lamp.
Sorry, but this is pure bunk. Yes, he does weed out those who do not play his system to a tee. And he is right to do so. But he judges his players equally. no matter what the paycheck is. That is why the entire locker room has bought into his concept.
Quote:
The three guys mentioned all got screwed in favor of Torts' guys.
Torts is not an Avery fan. Let's move past that. If Zuccarello & Wolski 1) blocked shots 2) were not lax defensively 3) actualy battled, then they would have played. They did not and are thus not here.

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03-09-2012, 11:45 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
Christensen was given a fair shot and was crap. Zucc and Wolski were not given a fair shake with this coach and we could use their creativity right now even (and I'm not so sure this is true) if we give up something in the d-zone.
Some things are just incredulous. The outcry for Christensen? REALLY?? Let's give up something in teh defensive zone and allow for floaters to float?

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03-09-2012, 11:47 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
Do you know whether he has scratched and sent down guys with skill simply because they did not play his systemt to a tee? I don't. Until we know that we cannot make a comparison. Defense first is smart. I have a feeling Torts would have scratched Gretzky or lambasted him until he gave up his scoring prowess to play strong away from the puck. Good teams have balance and that means snipers who snipe. Pierre Larouche could never have played for Torts and that would have been to Torts' detriment.

That's the issue; it's the rigidity and stubborness that is having a negative effect on the roster and now on the team's performance.
We don't have any snipers in our organization aside from Gaborik and that's it. We all know Tort's is hard headed but this is the only way the team can play because of a serious lack of offensive talent.
I think you're going way off base in saying players like Larouche couldn't play for us and Gretzky would be lambasted. That was a completely different era of hockey.

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03-09-2012, 12:15 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Scotty Bowman scratched and would not play anyone that would not play his system to a tee. Skill or no skill. That is how teams are made. Everyone thinking as one. Not allowing for players to have leeway. Ask Campbell/Ron Low/Muckler/Sather/Renney how having some players play one way and others lay a different way worked out for them.

We DO knwo that system coaches play systems. And, under the successfull ones, if you do nto play within the system, then you do not play. How many Devils played outside of Lemaire's system?

Wow

Good teams also play to their strengths and be who they are, not who they are not. And again, they are ALL single minded.

Or Bowman. Or Hitch. Or Lemaire.

let's welcome back the dark years. Where you have players who are held to a specific standard and those who have free reign to do what they want.
All I'll say is you assume alot of knowledge about Bowman, Lemaire et al's personnel decisions. And there is a middle ground. Did Claude Lemieux conform as well as Randy McKay? You can be single minded and still leave room for guys to use their creativity to score goals. It seems like Torts has no appetite for anyone who is not a star who doesn't play like Brian Boyle. btw, you listed alot of Oilers/Rangers coaches up there. You can move everyone in the same direction without eliminating a proponderence of talent from you team.

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03-09-2012, 12:17 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
We don't have any snipers in our organization aside from Gaborik and that's it. We all know Tort's is hard headed but this is the only way the team can play because of a serious lack of offensive talent.
I think you're going way off base in saying players like Larouche couldn't play for us and Gretzky would be lambasted. That was a completely different era of hockey.
Different era but Larouche with his skill set would be removed from the Rangers under Torts and we could use someone like him. Thomas is a sniper and Kreider has a very dangerous shot. Whether he becomes a sniper remains to be seen. Hard headed is not a favorable trait. Not in any business.

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03-09-2012, 12:23 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Some things are just incredulous. The outcry for Christensen? REALLY?? Let's give up something in teh defensive zone and allow for floaters to float?
Read closely. Apology accepted.

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03-09-2012, 12:39 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
All I'll say is you assume alot of knowledge about Bowman, Lemaire et al's personnel decisions. And there is a middle ground. Did Claude Lemieux conform as well as Randy McKay? You can be single minded and still leave room for guys to use their creativity to score goals. It seems like Torts has no appetite for anyone who is not a star who doesn't play like Brian Boyle. btw, you listed alot of Oilers/Rangers coaches up there. You can move everyone in the same direction without eliminating a proponderence of talent from you team.
Anisimov & Stepan don't play like Boyle. What's your explanation for them playing if Torts is so anti-skill?

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03-09-2012, 12:40 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
Read closely. Apology accepted.
Oh, whoops. And WAS crap.

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03-09-2012, 12:47 PM
  #117
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Despite the goal, I thought Callahan played poorly. Twice he made dumb, spin-o-rama passes from the corner to the front of the net with no other Ranger in front. At least once on the PP. Easy out for the opposition.

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03-09-2012, 12:52 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
All I'll say is you assume alot of knowledge about Bowman, Lemaire et al's personnel decisions. And there is a middle ground. Did Claude Lemieux conform as well as Randy McKay? You can be single minded and still leave room for guys to use their creativity to score goals. It seems like Torts has no appetite for anyone who is not a star who doesn't play like Brian Boyle. btw, you listed alot of Oilers/Rangers coaches up there. You can move everyone in the same direction without eliminating a proponderence of talent from you team.
Lemaire certainly played EXACTLY the way that Lemaire wanted him to. As did McKay. Lemieux being dirty did not go outside of the system. And truth be told, I think that Lemaire liked him like that. There was not a log of creative goal scoring that was goign on on those team.

Torts has an appetite for anyone who plays with the way that he wants them to. As does any coach.

I listed the Rangers coaches on purpose. They allowed for players to play outside of the system and had players that were held to different standards.

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03-09-2012, 12:58 PM
  #119
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Despite the goal, I thought Callahan played poorly. Twice he made dumb, spin-o-rama passes from the corner to the front of the net with no other Ranger in front. At least once on the PP. Easy out for the opposition.
He does that garbage all the time. I remember after it connected once someone made a thread saying Callahan was one of the best passers in the league

His passing is below average.

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03-09-2012, 03:21 PM
  #120
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Staal made 2 dreadful mistakes (turnover on the 1st goal and soft coverage in front of the net on Foligno, aided by Mitchell's turnover, on the 2nd.) He's not back to last year's level yet. Add a customary softy by Biron and a mostly putrid PP, there's your game. The turning point was when Stepan didn't shoot through Bishop's gaping 5-hole, going around instead and ended up not getting a shot off. Instead of a 2-0 lead, the game was tied within a minute. I'm not even counting Scott's breakaway to snap the tie, no chance he was going to score.

Bad PP, defensive lapses, poor goaltending, lack of a consistent forecheck. Still, it's only 2 losses. Great teams go through bad patches of play every season. This is really our first one.

The only serious area of concern to me going into the play-offs is the PP, but it was one even while they were winning. Torts MUST fix or at least improve it. Just get it up to average status. I think he's the one in charge, with Sullivan handling the excellent PK and defensemen. Torts said they need to shoot more, something I agree with. However, they don't move their feet enough. Most good PPs in this league confuse the PK by frequent movement in the offensive zone. Unfortunately I haven't heard Torts address this.

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03-09-2012, 03:28 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
Staal made 2 dreadful mistakes (turnover on the 1st goal and soft coverage in front of the net on Foligno, aided by Mitchell's turnover, on the 2nd.) He's not back to last year's level yet. Add a customary softy by Biron and a mostly putrid PP, there's your game. The turning point was when Stepan didn't shoot through Bishop's gaping 5-hole, going around instead and ended up not getting a shot off. Instead of a 2-0 lead, the game was tied within a minute. I'm not even counting Scott's breakaway to snap the tie, no chance he was going to score.
That had me SCREAMING at the TV; just awful decision making right there...he puts it in there, we win that game...not too mention that wide open net he missed in Devils game was probably the biggest miss of the year...I love the kid and we always tout his 'hockey IQ' but those were some awful rookie mistakes that cost us momentum and probably two games...

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03-09-2012, 03:30 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
Anisimov & Stepan don't play like Boyle. What's your explanation for them playing if Torts is so anti-skill?
Actually Anisimov is a better defensive player than Boyle by a significant margin. As for Step, he is very responsible defensively as well which is why he is a +22 this year.

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