Second is a difficult position to play, much more so than third. That is what makes him valuable.
He's not an irreplaceable player, but you'd be kidding yourself if you said that Walker wasn't valuable to the Pirates in ways other than what he does on the team. Just remember how important Ryan Malone was to the Penguins in 2003-04 and multiply that by about 20. It's been a long-ass time since the Pirates have had a born and raised player of much value on the team, and the Yinzers love that entirely too much.
But Walker is definitely better than his detractors want to argue, too. The guy is pretty damn solid with his bat at a position that is ungodly weak league-wide and isn't bad defensively.
Walker's value has always fluctuated with the position he's played. He was a good value pick for his place in the draft (he was projected to go in the 8-14 range, so he wasn't a reach just because of his hometown) because he was a catcher who could hit for average. Once he moved from catcher to third his value as a prospect plummeted...his change to second was basically a desperation move, and it actually worked. He's not a prospect anymore, so I don't know why you called him 'old for a prospect', but at 26 he's a solid established MLB 2B with projectable stats. He's aready topped an .800 OPS as many times as Freddy Sanchez did (a guy who was only good if you had no clue what metrics were...he was a lovable guy, but he had no clue how to take a pitch and he was a notorious singles hitter...Walker has a career oWAR of 5.1 in his less than 2 full seasons, Sanchez's is 12.3 in with roughly 4 times as many games played).
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Last edited by Big McLargehuge: 03-08-2012 at 11:22 PM.
I've never seen any scout or writer describe 2B as harder than 3B. Maybe it is on par with 3B as in WAR's positional adjustments, but never above. I've heard of 3B and/or SS who doesn't have arm and/or range goes to 2B, but rare if never does it go the reverse.
As for Walker's value, he is 26 and is arb eligible until 30. I don't see projection except a slight improvement in defense so he would be average to slightly all around above at 2nd. I don't see the point of a long term deal to buy UFA years because you are buying decline years and having a suitable replacement in 4 years seems likely.
Walker is definitely an above-average player, offensively. Defensively, not so much. Then again, as several people already stated, second base is a hard position to play. Most second baseman in the majors today are just solid defensive players, with no bat. Walker brings an above-average bat, with a sub-par glove and arm. I personally prefer the bat.
On the other hand, I think Walker is a tad overrated. Nothing was more annoying than when Greg Brown constantly mentioned Walker's RBI total last season. The guy hit in the 4th spot in the order for how much of the season? Chances are when Andrew McCutchen is hitting ahead of you, he has a good chance to get on base (or in scoring position).
Not to take anything away from Walker, it's not like those runs scored themselves. He DID have to knock them in. I just think he wasn't putting up god-like numbers.
I've seen enough of Walker to think that he should probably be batting seventh in a good NL lineup (8th in AL) but on our team he'll probably have to bat in the top half of the order. Either way he'll be on the field. Now we can continue running him out there at 2B where he's looked like nothing special or we can get the same offensive production, but at 3B where he actually looked like a pretty good fielder.
This all presumes that Alvarez shifts to his final resting place of course.
It doesn't matter to me whether we're looking for a 2B or a 3B. I don't think that it's appreciably harder to fill either position right now. And not to suggest that my hopes are up about Cunningham, but I do believe that he is the only prospect at either position who might be worth following.
If everything works out perfectly, he'll hit 6th, so not too far off from where you want him.
Tabata
Presley
McCutchen
Alvarez
Jones
Walker
Barmes
Catcher
Pitcher
He's a better hitter than almost all shortstops, catchers and second basemen (6th, 7th and 8th hitters) on MLB rosters, so I'm cool with him staying where he is in the order. I'm more concerned with the fact that SS took a small step forward and Catcher took a giant step back offensively, and the fact that Garrett Jones is....not exactly what you want from a #5 hitter who may have to move up to 4 if Alvarez doesn't stop acting like a big, fat, disappointing blob of draft bust.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivek
defensive spectrum (from easiest to hardest)
First baseman
Left fielder
Right fielder
Third baseman
Center fielder
Second baseman
Shortstop
Catcher
He went from 1 to 5 to 3, rather strange progression.
This must be generalized. For the Pirates, RF is significantly easier than LF because of the way PNC is built.
The Pirates won't be as big as the Penguins in Pittsburgh again for a long time.
The Pirates got a lot of hype and an attendance boost with a sniff of relevance last year, and Pittsburghers do want to support the team more than we have...but the fact remains they've basically done everything in their powers to alienate their fan base over the past 20 years.
When I was a youngster they were easily my #1 team, as baseball was the sport that I played as a kid and it's the sport that ran in my family (my grandfather being a Simpsons-esque ringer back in the day who was once offered a contract by the Pirates...but turned it down because he was a momma's boy and his mother didn't want him to leave Pittsburgh for road games...ugh)...but they'll never move past the #3 perch for me. The scars run too deep, while the Steelers have been consistently good and won 2 Super Bowls and Lemieux won me over as a first generation hockey fan in my family.
I'm 25...and I think anyone at the age of around 30 or below is probably in the same boat as me. I'm just at that perfect age where the first baseball I watched and understood was in 1993, meaning I've been on the train for all 19 consecutive losing seasons thus far. No matter how much I love the sport the Pirates and Major League Baseball have capped the ceiling well below what the Penguins and Steelers have provided me.
Even if the Pirates did string together a solid run of a few years and, somehow, win a World Series...their season doesn't overlap the Penguins outside of the first week of April and then the playoffs of the two leagues. An increase of interest in the Pirates isn't too likely to harm either the Penguins or Steelers too much.
The vast majority of Walker's value is based in the position he plays, to be completely honest. He'd be a mediocrity at best as a third baseman, but as a second baseman he has some actual merit. He's not as good as the diehard Yinzers think he is, nor is he anywhere near as bad as the naysayers think, but he hits too lightly to be a valuable third baseman and his glove was never his selling point. For as rare as solid third basemen have become in this league, finding good middle infielders will always be the most difficult thing to find...and there's no one in the system that is anywhere near replacing Walker at second. Keep him where he is and sign him long term, I don't see how it's an option. Even if he's overpaid slightly for what he really brings, he's selling just as many tickets as McCutchen is, sadly, because of his local ties.
My personal opinion is that people from 15 or so, to 30, would put hockey as their #1 followed by the Steelers.
I don't think the question should be, "Could the Pirates catch the Pens in terms of popularity," as much as "could the Penguins overcome the Steelers in popularity locally?" I think they can, and will as the millennial generation gets older.
I do take some issue with the characterization of 2B as being significantly harder than 3B. 3B is stressful. Lots of screamers, lots of slow rollers that you need to run in on and every throw needs to be hard and on-target.
I've played all of the positions except Catcher. I wouldn't characterize 3B as an easy position at all. It's definitely closer to 2B than it is to the outfield positions and 1B.
This must be generalized. For the Pirates, RF is significantly easier than LF because of the way PNC is built.
Yeah, fields with unique dimensions can switch the LF/RF difficulty but the main reason for RF being a consistently more demanding defensive position isn't really because of park dimensions but almost solely due RF needing at least a decent arm because if he doesn't, a much higher % of singles to right with a guy on first will turn in to a 1st & 3rd situation rather than 1st & 2nd. LF doesn't have that problem and will also usually have the easiest throw home of the OF positions.
A bit surprised that some people are surprised that 2b is considered harder than 3b. 2b is just SS with less need for arm strength and a harder double-play pivot. 3b is usually where SS's who can hit and have the arm but not the range to play SS go and 2b is where SS's with the range but not the arm end up.
Lack of available talent in the free agent pool plus lack of OG in free agent pool.
I'm hoping the Steelers make a play for Paul Soliai. Perfect replacement for Casey Hampton.
I think Hampton is staying.
Also, I wouldn't expect the Steelers to make a play on any of those free agents, they have little cap space and they need to resign Wallace and Cotchery and sign draft picks. The replacements for the players they released are already on the roster.
Yeah, fields with unique dimensions can switch the LF/RF difficulty but the main reason for RF being a consistently more demanding defensive position isn't really because of park dimensions but almost solely due RF needing at least a decent arm because if he doesn't, a much higher % of singles to right with a guy on first will turn in to a 1st & 3rd situation rather than 1st & 2nd. LF doesn't have that problem and will also usually have the easiest throw home of the OF positions.
A bit surprised that some people are surprised that 2b is considered harder than 3b. 2b is just SS with less need for arm strength and a harder double-play pivot. 3b is usually where SS's who can hit and have the arm but not the range to play SS go and 2b is where SS's with the range but not the arm end up.
I played both positions and i think - in my personal experience - that youre selling 3b short. 2b isn't easy but neither is 3b. The ball comes at you a lot faster at 3b for one thing. Mostly because youre closer to the plate but also remember that right-handed batters are pulling the ball at the third-baseman whereas the second-baseman is generally dealing with opposite field pokes.
Redskins gave up 3 first round picks and a 2012 second round pick to get number 2 pick, just 4 spots moved up. Terrible trade for Skins and great for Rams, IMO.
I don't think RG III will be better fit for Skins.
Redskins gave up 3 first round picks and a 2012 second round pick to get number 2 pick, just 4 spots moved up. Terrible trade for Skins and great for Rams, IMO.
I don't think RG III will be better fit for Skins.
Pretty steep price. That said, no position on the team matters more than QB. Look at the list of horrors the Steelers went through between Bradshaw and Rothlisberger. I made the list up once, it was something like almost 30 QB's if I remember, each one mediocre to bad. Nothing can relegate you to also ran mediocrity more than a search for a true elite QB.
Now all that said, there is still no guarentee this guy is one of those.
Redskins gave up 3 first round picks and a 2012 second round pick to get number 2 pick, just 4 spots moved up. Terrible trade for Skins and great for Rams, IMO.
I don't think RG III will be better fit for Skins.
Oof, that's a lot. It's not like RG will be ready to roll out and play well from day one, so that pick for 2013 will probably be top 10 next year for certain.
The Redskins have traded so many picks the last 10 years it's ridiculous, you think they'd figure out that's not such a good idea after being a middling team for such a long stretch.
I've been thinking that they're like 6-10 or 9-7 every year that I can remember and now that I look it up, I see that since 1992 they've won more than 9 games twice and both times it was 10 wins. An average of about 6.3 wins during that stretch. Pretty much the picture of mediocrity.
Only positive I can see for any Redskins fans is that if you're going to give up a lot of picks, at least do it for a QB since you can't win without one, still, flipping this year's first, two more firsts and a second is a lot and if RG doesn't turn out to be a great, not just solid, QB, it will be a trade that will set back the franchise a long time.
I think the Redskins overpaid. RG3 is perfect for Shanahan's system though. He likes a fairly mobile QB that can do all those roll out plays that Elway used to do. Not saying RG3 will be Elway, but he fits that system like a glove.
I think the Redskins overpaid. RG3 is perfect for Shanahan's system though. He likes a fairly mobile QB that can do all those roll out plays that Elway used to do. Not saying RG3 will be Elway, but he fits that system like a glove.
I don't know. Maybe you're right. Shanahan is overrated, IMO.
At least, we won't face RG III twice a year, had Cleveland trade for second pick.
So both Kiper and McShay have us taking Donta Hightower from Alabama. I'd absolutely love that pick. He and Timmons in the middle would be dynamite.
I'd be so pissed. The Steelers probably need five linemen, and since they didn't franchise Wallace, they'll probably be without his services too, and instead they'll be using their first rounder on an overly tall inside linebacker?
That's almost as bad as drafting a running back in the first round.
I'd be so pissed. The Steelers probably need five linemen, and since they didn't franchise Wallace, they'll probably be without his services too, and instead they'll be using their first rounder on an overly tall inside linebacker?
That's almost as bad as drafting a running back in the first round.
For once I agree with you. I think ILB are as easy to find in later rounds as RB's and WRs. And Steelers are probably the best team in the league in grooming LB's. Use the high picks on linemen, or a CB.
