I've watched both and still think Shattenkirk is better. I think the people that are saying Johnson is "miles ahead" of Shattenkirk defensively need to watch him play more. He's becoming extremely solid defensively, and his PK minutes just continue to rise. "Easy minutes" my ass. That's not even close to being true. With Barret Jackman as his partner, they see a lot of top players. Not to mention Shattenkirk blocks as many shots and has a better GVA/TKA ratio....Just saying. They are both good defensively and you can make a case for either one of them but I feel like Shattenkirk is just known as a pure offensive d-man, which is entirely false even though he is very good offensively. Personally I think he's going to be more like a Dan Boyle than a Rafalski. Shattenkirk is also not that soft. He doesn't hit as hard and as often like Johnson because of the size differential, but he's thrown some big hits on some much bigger players and isn't afraid to be gritty. Really impressed with him. His overall game is very good.
Shattenkirk plays in a very smart defensive system under Hitchcock. It may help develop his defensive game further, but he is not better defensively right now nor do I expect him to overcome the physical limitations preventing him from being better defensively.
EJ can shrug players off the puck, Shattenkirk has to use his hockey smarts and stick work to steal the puck. EJ can shield the puck using his size to clear the zone, Shattenkirk has to use his agility and chemistry with his partner. Shattenkirk has a partner who understands his role, which is to defensively cover him while EJ has a partner who can't decide if he's Bobby Orr or Shane O'Brien when on the ice since he likes to dangle himself up behind the goalie and leave EJ high and dry sometimes.
For the comparisons defensively, EJ is going to be favored in virtually all categories outside of, imo, intelligence and stick handling. For the comparisons offensively, Kirk is going to be favored in virtually all categories outside of, imo, shot strength... others like skating and puck control I'm still undecided on because both play quite differently.
I think it really depends on what your team needs. Erik Johnson has the ability, and has for a large part of this season, to be your go to defender. I'm very happy to have him on the team as an Avs fan. So many defensive zone plays end with him just pushing someone off the puck and getting it out, and it is something that the Avs defense has been lacking for years.
On the other hand, if you already have an established defense, then I think the dynamic abilities of a guy like Shattenkirk may help more. The biggest problem with EJ right now is that he hasn't put all his tool together, while I'd argue that Shattenkirk has. I really liked what Shattenkirk had to bring on the Avs, but also saw that he couldn't perform as well offensively when expected to be a go-to guy.
I don't think either team lost this trade, it is a fair deal that will end up helping both teams in the longterm. Trying to "win" a trade seems rather childish (unless of course a deal is done between rivals, in which case I would understand).
Also, anyone that watches the Avs will notice that our teams version of a defensive scheme is to run around and hope for the best. It's really not pretty, and often completely ineffective. I think the whole team, EJ included, would benefit greatly from hiring coaches that know what they are doing and have a proven track record.
I really liked what Shattenkirk had to bring on the Avs, but also saw that he couldn't perform as well offensively when expected to be a go-to guy.
So in the first half of his rookie season you found he couldn't be the go-to-guy? I don't think many rookie dman can be the complete catylist on the back end
I've watched both and still think Shattenkirk is better. I think the people that are saying Johnson is "miles ahead" of Shattenkirk defensively need to watch him play more. He's becoming extremely solid defensively, and his PK minutes just continue to rise. "Easy minutes" my ass. That's not even close to being true. With Barret Jackman as his partner, they see a lot of top players. Not to mention Shattenkirk blocks as many shots and has a better GVA/TKA ratio....Just saying. They are both good defensively and you can make a case for either one of them but I feel like Shattenkirk is just known as a pure offensive d-man, which is entirely false even though he is very good offensively. Personally I think he's going to be more like a Dan Boyle than a Rafalski. Shattenkirk is also not that soft. He doesn't hit as hard and as often like Johnson because of the size differential, but he's thrown some big hits on some much bigger players and isn't afraid to be gritty. Really impressed with him. His overall game is very good.
Thats exactly the problem. I see the poll results here and I think it has to be...
1. The fact that EJ was drafted #1 overall therefore people feel that he SHOULD be better so they convince themselves that he is
2. People have seen EJ a lot more and the Avalanche promote him a lot more than the Blues promote Shatty.
3. The misconception of Shatty being an offensive D-man and doesn't add much to D is a complete farse. Shatty is still 4th in the NHL in plus minus at +27. Say what you wan't about the plus / minus stat but he is on the ice when the Blues are scoring and not on the ice when the opponent is scoring.
People say the Blues goalies are only good because of our great D. However our D apparently is just second rate to a lot of people. Which means our forwards must be the best two-way players in the game and they are the ones who do pretty much everything.
I don't know, just a lot of misconceptions out there about the Blues... people (still) don't know much about them and ever since we have been the Best team in the NHL and widening the gap we still don't get the pub. I know I know... little violin and all that. My point is that without exposure you get lack of knowledge.
Being a Blues fan in Colorado who has seen every Blues game this year and about half of the Avalanche games I just don't see it with EJ and it boggles my mind how people can. He's the same under-achieveing "He will be good someday!" player that the Blues watched for years.
Thats exactly the problem. I see the poll results here and I think it has to be...
1. The fact that EJ was drafted #1 overall therefore people feel that he SHOULD be better so they convince themselves that he is
2. People have seen EJ a lot more and the Avalanche promote him a lot more than the Blues promote Shatty.
3. The misconception of Shatty being an offensive D-man and doesn't add much to D is a complete farse. Shatty is still 4th in the NHL in plus minus at +27. Say what you wan't about the plus / minus stat but he is on the ice when the Blues are scoring and not on the ice when the opponent is scoring.
People say the Blues goalies are only good because of our great D. However our D apparently is just second rate to a lot of people. Which means our forwards must be the best two-way players in the game and they are the ones who do pretty much everything.
I don't know, just a lot of misconceptions out there about the Blues... people (still) don't know much about them and ever since we have been the Best team in the NHL and widening the gap we still don't get the pub. I know I know... little violin and all that. My point is that without exposure you get lack of knowledge.
Being a Blues fan in Colorado who has seen every Blues game this year and about half of the Avalanche games I just don't see it with EJ and it boggles my mind how people can. He's the same under-achieveing "He will be good someday!" player that the Blues watched for years.
I think one of the reasons that Blues fans like Shattenkirk so much more than EJ is he does almost as much as EJ with a lot less tools. Except he has the hockey sense that EJ seemed to be lacking here in St. Louis. I haven't watched many Avs games, so I don't know if he magically developed hockey sense after the trade. Mostly due to his physical tools, EJ always left me wanting more.
Thats exactly the problem. I see the poll results here and I think it has to be...
1. The fact that EJ was drafted #1 overall therefore people feel that he SHOULD be better so they convince themselves that he is
2. People have seen EJ a lot more and the Avalanche promote him a lot more than the Blues promote Shatty.
3. The misconception of Shatty being an offensive D-man and doesn't add much to D is a complete farse. Shatty is still 4th in the NHL in plus minus at +27. Say what you wan't about the plus / minus stat but he is on the ice when the Blues are scoring and not on the ice when the opponent is scoring.
People say the Blues goalies are only good because of our great D. However our D apparently is just second rate to a lot of people. Which means our forwards must be the best two-way players in the game and they are the ones who do pretty much everything.
I don't know, just a lot of misconceptions out there about the Blues... people (still) don't know much about them and ever since we have been the Best team in the NHL and widening the gap we still don't get the pub. I know I know... little violin and all that. My point is that without exposure you get lack of knowledge.
Being a Blues fan in Colorado who has seen every Blues game this year and about half of the Avalanche games I just don't see it with EJ and it boggles my mind how people can. He's the same under-achieveing "He will be good someday!" player that the Blues watched for years.
It wouldn't boggle your mind if you watched the avs once in a while and did so objectively, set aside you're disappointment that EJ wasn't Pronger for you from day one and look at all of the great things EJ does to anchor a wholly mediocre defense to competency. He's really gotten his timing down when to put himself between opposing players and the puck. You see him now tracking a guy and just deciding that "now would be a good time to have the puck on his stick" and just stepping in between the player and the puck like they're not even skating. He's done a great job of rushing the puck up the ice when he has room to do so and firing the puck out of danger when he doesn't.
He still tries to do too much sometimes and gets caught trying to defend his man and make a play on the puckhandler that his partner just let waltz right past. Unfortunately that's what happens when your facing other teams' best lines and spend you're season playing with "Sick-danglezzz" O'Brien, Ryan Wilson before he scrambled his brains again, and Jan Hejda while he was trying to prove he was a more productive offensive player than JML and was pinching on any puck that even looked like it might come in his direction. For the most part EJ does a great job covering for his partners and cleaning things up in front of the net. EJ doesn't have Shatty's almost sublime sense for when to just poke the puck right on out of danger, but he's not exactly Ryan "I hate holding onto my stick" O'Byrne. The kid's doing a great job making the right play and making minimal mistakes that he's shown steady progress learning from. The kid still has a lot more to learn, but he's already playing very well, he's just not dominating all game long.
EJ's not the natural thinker of the game that Shattenkirk is, but neither was a young Zdeno Chara, but Chara kept learning what he could and couldn't do at this level and thus improving. That's exactly what EJ has done since the C was taken off the table and he stopped trying to prove that he could be a one man wrecking crew. Legitamitely my only complaint right now with EJ's play, is that he isn't yet an experienced enough defender that he can teach his sporadically retarded team-mates to just never go full retard on the ice
It wouldn't boggle your mind if you watched the avs once in a while and did so objectively, set aside you're disappointment that EJ wasn't Pronger for you from day one and look at all of the great things EJ does to anchor a wholly mediocre defense to competency. He's really gotten his timing down when to put himself between opposing players and the puck. You see him now tracking a guy and just deciding that "now would be a good time to have the puck on his stick" and just stepping in between the player and the puck like they're not even skating. He's done a great job of rushing the puck up the ice when he has room to do so and firing the puck out of danger when he doesn't.
He still tries to do too much sometimes and gets caught trying to defend his man and make a play on the puckhandler that his partner just let waltz right past. Unfortunately that's what happens when your facing other teams' best lines and spend you're season playing with "Sick-danglezzz" O'Brien, Ryan Wilson before he scrambled his brains again, and Jan Hejda while he was trying to prove he was a more productive offensive player than JML and was pinching on any puck that even looked like it might come in his direction. For the most part EJ does a great job covering for his partners and cleaning things up in front of the net. EJ doesn't have Shatty's almost sublime sense for when to just poke the puck right on out of danger, but he's not exactly Ryan "I hate holding onto my stick" O'Byrne. The kid's doing a great job making the right play and making minimal mistakes that he's shown steady progress learning from. The kid still has a lot more to learn, but he's already playing very well, he's just not dominating all game long.
EJ's not the natural thinker of the game that Shattenkirk is, but neither was a young Zdeno Chara, but Chara kept learning what he could and couldn't do at this level and thus improving. That's exactly what EJ has done since the C was taken off the table and he stopped trying to prove that he could be a one man wrecking crew. Legitamitely my only complaint right now with EJ's play, is that he isn't yet an experienced enough defender that he can teach his sporadically retarded team-mates to just never go full retard on the ice
