After spending the better part of an hour+ reading this thread, I'd like to add my two cents. I did this in the form of quotes I picked up that shared my view along the way. I apologize for not grabbing the posters' names so as not to give them credit.
Looking back on this thread I can see I am in the minority, but that's never been a variable to alter voicing my opinion. What I can say from reading the thread in its entirety is this: the side constantly defending Kronwall is definitely more aggressive in their nature in terms of getting personal, displaying condescending attitudes, and attacking the messengers instead of addressing the topic at hand. This I do find rather comical as one of the straws grasped the most is that those who feel Nik should own up for his actions in the form of physicality are just a bunch of "yo bros" helpin' each other stack on 45s for our dead-lifts. I'm far from that, but my opinion is Nik Kronwall's hit 'n runs are not good for the game for many reasons. At the end of the day it all comes down to honor, player safety, and getting the best possible product on the ice every night.
So, a good check into the boards where the elbow rides up and catches a bit of the jaw is not clean, but a shot where the principal point of contact is the head is clean.
While I appreciate the difference in hitting Lidstrom and hitting Voracek, once you've agreed that retaliating is the right thing to do when talking about the Lidstrom hit, you've got nowhere left to go now when defending Kronwall's cowardice.
Lappy, at least, stood in there for a few shots and then turtled once he got hurt. Lappy is one of the bravest guys to suit up in the NHL over the last 20 years, so it's really not fair to compare a chicken like Kronwall to him.
If Kronwall is too valuable to sit for 5, he shouldn't throw hits around that cause people to want to fight him.
QFT.
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Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
The thread about the hit/fight, for anyone that was curious.
Wow, that thread is amazing! Here are just a few of the gems I managed to find for those that didn't want to look through it.
Originally Posted by X8oD View Post
and turtles apparently
glad to see the tradition continue in colorado!
Originally Posted by Cawz View Post
Yeah, looked like he got his elbow up under the chin.
Originally Posted by Ensane View Post
Forget the instigator (not like giving Colorado a PP is a "gift" or anything, this season), but Downey did exactly what any team would have wanted their enforcer to do after a hit (clean or not) like that on the team's best player.
Originally Posted by cmccallum View Post
Then Downey took care of Laperriere.
Laperriere turtled...
Knee injury could be a sprain i guess considering Lidstrom had trouble standing.
Originally Posted by SoupGuru View Post
This is what hockey is supposed to be like. Lidstrom is elite and doesn't play much of a physical game so if you go in there and get a lick on him, legal or not, you have to know someone's going to come looking for you later. And I speak for many people in Detroit that is glad we finally have an enforcer. Downey steps up like he's supposed to and says "I don't care if that hit was legal, you need to be reminded that you don't touch our elite guys." Downey drops the gloves, face to face, man to man. If Laperrier doesn't want to go, that's fine - he can draw the instigator but he will eventually have to go or turtle. He eventually dropped 'em they traded punches. And that's it. No bad blood. Everyone feels better, no one gets hurt. Everything on the up and up. Man to man. Like it should be.
Originally Posted by steafo View Post
Couldn't agree with this post more, boo to the instigator rule.
Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
Legal. Not clean.
Originally Posted by Avery4Byng* View Post
What's wrong with this picture?
Lappy hits Lidstrom, and hurts him. Downey comes in and defends his superstar, as expected.
I guess this should be 7 pages about the instigator rule....?
Originally Posted by bullocks View Post
Laperriere is a *****
Takes a run at Lidstrom, gets dropped/turltes from Downey. Start of the third takes a run at Downey and gets dropped again ROFL Then ***** boy McLeod has to try and jump Downey from behind.
The Avs were always a bunch of class acts.
Originally Posted by DisgruntledLionFan View Post
You're right.
Semenko and Probert only used to line up guys after questionable hits. If it was clean, you could hit Yzerman and Gretzky all night long.
Do I need to use the smiley?
Originally Posted by X8oD View Post
I dont have any issue with the hit - it was questionable - why people feel the need to follow thru on a guy against the boards with a forearm/elbow to the face ill never know. But ya know what, Lappy paid, and he was made to look foolish twice by Downey. Detroit Finally has an enforcer who can hang with the big guys and its nice to see.
BUT
The Issue i had was Jeff Finger's Wind up Butt-end on Filpulla. I wouldn't be shocked if he gets a game for that one.
Originally Posted by Tomas W View Post
The hit didn't look that ugly, but the when the team captain goes down the "hitter" needs to be sent a message, that he got from Downey and Detroit finaly snap out of thier sleep.
Lets hope for a speedy recovery for Lidas.
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I don't think its clean.
Lidström obviously got his bell rung, right? We can all agree on that, I think. His knee might be hurt too but he looked shaken up.
Lappaiere obviously didn't hit Lidström in the head with his shoulder, or any other "legal" part.
If its not illigal, I think it should be. Hitting to the head.
Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
As for the hit, the refs deemed it legal (could have been called an elbow) but there's no way I'd ever call it clean. If there is any question whatsoever, it's not a clean hit. Sure it may be legal, but not clean. And no, legal =/= clean.
Originally Posted by Devilswede View Post
Great job by Downey!
This is why fighting is needed in this game and why it never should go away!
Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
The first thing that touches and the positition of that first impact isn't necessarily the most important. A different example but somewhat related is guys that launch themselves upwards into a check. There is no functional difference between jumping a couple feet away from the target and timing it perfectly so that the skates are still touching the ice at the point of impact. The end result is still the bulk of the force being driven upwards into a player's more vulnerable head and neck area.
This wasn't the worst hit I've ever seen, but it was relatively high to begin with and rode up on the point of impact. Looked bad. Could have been worse. But it also could have been a lot better. Any sort of check would have taken Lidstrom out of that play, but it seems it was more important to try and take him out of the game. It's a lack of respect.
Originally Posted by DarkReign View Post
Lap knew what he was doing when he finished his check. He knew he'd have to answer for taking a run at Lidstrom. Make that same hit on Samuelsson/Kopecky/Lilja/Quincey or a myriad of other players not wearing the "C" or winning multiple Norris trophies, and I doubt it illicits the same reaction.
But he hit Lidstrom. Sorry to inform everyone, but this is the way its been in hockey since the dawn of time. Do not run our star players or you will pay.
Lidstrom is one the best players to ever play the game, IMO. You run him, you answer for it. Kudos to Lap for manning up when he was 'asked' to.
Absolute gold. A fine chronicle of how there was a time when Red Wings fans hadn't yet torn down their McCarty posters to put up Claude Lemieux posters.
So he should purposely make himself a less valuable hockey player?
There are consequences for decisions in life.
You want to be the hardest open hitter in the league? Guess what. You're going to get some attention. If you don't think that's part of the bargain, you're freakin' crazy.
Take teammate Tomas Holmstrom. This guy has taken more lumber over the last 12 years than maybe anyone in hockey. That's a consquence of his decision.
There is a price to pay for doing things. If you want to do them and be the best player can be, then you pay the price.
Kronwall, for now, is not paying the price. But he will. You can't do what he's doing without paying for it. The hockey Gods won't let it happen.
When i see a player as JV with his head down for a length of time as i am approaching, the though in MY mind is "I am going to KILL this guy with this hit!", with the reaction of me HITTING THE BRAKES at least to the point where he is going to stay conscious and live a normal life.
Scott Stevens and Kronwall don't have the thought of hitting the brakes.
Please do not confuse Stevens and Kronwall. One is a hall of famer. One is a gutless coward who hides behind the referee's legs like a beaten dog after he's injured someone on purpose. Scott Stevens didn't hide behind anything.
What he is saying and saying correctly is that your entire style of argumentation is illogical and wouldnt hold a bucket of piss in any real debate.
Non sequitors - his quoted piece from before elegantly displayed this
I know what nonsequitor is, Darky. And that wasn't one.
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Strawman - Paraphrase: Wings fans whine about Lemieux but glorify Kronwall
How can it be a strawman? It is perfectly applicable.
Avs fans defended Lemieux's cowardice in the exact same manner as the Wings fans defend Kronwall's cowardice.
So where is the strawman?
Value judgements - Your interpretation of the "code"
Well, yeah there's room for disagreement on the morals of the sport.
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Ad Hominen - Suggesting bias from all Wings fans because of the European nature of the team
Here's a statement, agree or disagree:
Over the last 7 years, the Wings have been led a by a largely European core of players and today's Red Wings fan is less likely to enjoy fighting and after-the-whistle shenanigans.
Agree or disagree. That's not adhominen. It's an observation the fan base. This is the same city that sold Bruise Brothers t-shirts and had Bob Probert Tale of the Tape in the daily paper before every game.
This is the same city that made Darren McCarty a freakin' hero for jumping a guy who didn't want to fight. And that moment was a big "get the money of the back" moment that helped propel this team to the top of the league after 40 years of suffering.
We used to have a good mix of North American and European skill and then toughness, too. We don't have that anymore.
You don't think the fanbase has adjusted along with that? Especially on a message board, where fans rabidly defend their team's own traits while putting down the traits of other teams?
When a physical team loses, a lot Red Wings fans fill their posts with these:
My analogy didn't include Ulf. My analogy wasn't about Claude's hitting and cheap shots. It was about his cowardice when McCarty came after him. That was the analogy.
There's nothing false about it.
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Bandwagon Appeal - Every other hitter in the history of the league fought!
I've asked question, name another big hitter in the league who never fought. That's not appealing to bandwagon.
If we're going to talk about code and the game's morals, it ought to be based on the game's actual history, right?
No?
If you're going to criticze my posts as illogical, take the time to read them and understand them. Thanks!
I'm in no way endorsing what happened, however historically, guys who have refused to fight usually have had worse fates than those who actually dropped the gloves. (See Steve Moore).
Common misconception-- Steve Moore actually did fight Brad May earlier in the game. The entire thing should have been over once he dropped the gloves with May.
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It may be in Kronwalls best interest to just fight. If he prefers not to then he shouldn't deliver such controversial hits.
Now this just doesnt make sense to me. Kronwall should either make himself less effective by not hitting or he should take himself out of the game for 5 minutes to "justify" his hit? Really? Those are your two options? How about this one-- Kronwall keeps playing the way he does, and he remains an effective defender for the Red Wings whenever they need him on the ice. Who loses in that scenario?
What FACT did you have to stand on when you said this:
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Originally Posted by DarkReign View Post
Lap knew what he was doing when he finished his check. He knew he'd have to answer for taking a run at Lidstrom. Make that same hit on Samuelsson/Kopecky/Lilja/Quincey or a myriad of other players not wearing the "C" or winning multiple Norris trophies, and I doubt it illicits the same reaction.
Seems like you saying Lapierierre would have to fight when he finished his check. Why? There's nothing in the RULES. There's no fact supporting it.
Were you talking about Code? The same kind of code you're criticizing me for talking about today?
Nope, still here. Lappy was asked to go and he went. What is different between that situation and the one at hand is that Kronwall was asked and refused.
You can still jump him and get what you want out of it, but youre going on the PK and possibly going to be suspended for it.
You refuse to acknowledge Kronwall does not have to fight, ever, for any reason.
The fact that Kronwall so upsets people on here is just icing on his big-hit-delivering cake.
This is one example I was talking about.
Some guys not only think it's fine that Kronwall deliver dangerous hits without fighting.
They actually snicker when a teammate sees their injured player on the ice, responds by wanting to fight, and then takes the penalty for roughing when Kronwall doesn't oblige.
That is because Kronwall is a coward IMO. He literally looks for any chance he can to take advantage of the vulnerable and helpless. He tries every single game, the entire game, to look for a player in a vulnerable position who is helpless so he can "punish" and injury him. Wings' fans say "people are immature and insane for wishing injury upon Kronwall". In reality, that is what Kronwall is doing. The type of hits he throws are the ones that are most dangerous and most likely to cause injury. That is why he throws them. Watch him play and you'll see him attempt to go after every player that is unsuspecting but as soon as they realize he is coming, he will pull up.
Don't expect him to be a man after throwing any of his borderline hits either. I've seen him challenged 30+ times after his borderline htis but to no avail. Instead you can find him on his hands and knees like a puppy, taking punches to his head(see Hemsky hit). Reminds me of a dog getting beat by his master for doing something wrong. The dog and Kronwall look up all helpless and puppy eyed(Kronwall does this towards the refs). You'll never see Kronwall in a scrum or get into a fight. He was scared to fight a 20 year old kid last night. Ran behind the refs AGAIN. Kronwall is a 30 year old man, who was scared of a 20 year old kid. Barely out of his teens. The only time he does anything of the physical nature is when a player isn't looking at him and is unaware of his surroundings. That is his game. He is a modern day Ulf... a dirty joke of a player. Just my opinion though, I'm sure many will disagree.
This is one example I was talking about.
Some guys not only think it's fine that Kronwall deliver dangerous hits without fighting.
They actually snicker when a teammate sees their injured player on the ice, responds by wanting to fight, and then takes the penalty for roughing when Kronwall doesn't oblige.
Yes, it's shocking how not every person who watches hockey has the exact same sensibilities with regards to it as you do.
Personally I'd love to see Kronwall start drawing some 7 minute powerplays by letting the other player drop his gloves and getting in a punch of two before going down to the ice and protecting himself. But I can understand why he'd not want to bother with that and simply refuse to get involved outright.
The Voracek hit is a perfect example of this; instead of wasting his time, Kronwall turned his big hit into a turnover and scoring chance (i.e. he actually resumed playing hockey).
Sorry, meant Matt Cooke. Doesnt make a difference though. It should have been over after that fight.
Steve Moore ducked each and every Canuck that challenged him until the smallest guy on their team came knocking. If anything that would have made the Canucks more angry, not less, hence the incident.
You think the Bruins and Penguins would not have had serious unresolved issues after the Savard hit if Cooke was 6'2, had ducked all of Thornton, Lucic and Chara, then beat up Ference, who's about 5'8? Because that's what Moore did.
How many times was Lawrence Taylor forced to fight after make a big hit or tackle? The hockey code is a joke.
No, it's not. It's just severely misunderstood in this day and age.
Hockey wannabe "purists" think that every player needs to answer for every play they make. But the fact is, if you play within the rules, you wont be expected to answer. Period.
If you cross the line and you take liberties, then the opponent will expect you to answer. It keeps players honest, and it keeps a level of respect amongst the players who follow the code even if they tend to step outside the line once in a while.
As far as I'm concerned, Kronwall plays hard within the rules, and as a result, there should be no expectation for him to answer. If he does, then great, but you cant expect him to "answer the call" on a play that was within the rules. It doesnt work like that. But these hockey "purists" who think they understand the code (better than the players, I might add) will have you believe that players should be dropping after every big hit. Again, that's not how it works. You play within the rules, you wont have any problems.
Steve Moore ducked each and every Canuck that challenged him until the smallest guy on their team came knocking. If anything that would have made the Canucks more angry, not less, hence the incident.
You think the Bruins and Penguins would not have had serious unresolved issues after the Savard hit if Cooke was 6'2, had ducked all of Thornton, Lucic and Chara, then beat up Ference, who's about 5'8? Because that's what Moore did.
Really? Give me a break. He fought Cooke who was an experienced fighter. You know that was Moore's only NHL fight, right? He shouldnt be expected to fight the Canucks heavyweight.
Dont even get me started here. Moore did what he had to do. He fought 6 minutes into the damn game. He couldnt have been "ducking and dodging" for too long if he only had one shift before the damn fight with Cooke
Ultimately what this thread comes down to is the people insist that Kronwall has to fight are the people who want more fighting period. They can tap-dance around that all they want with various rationalizations but that's really the underlying motive behind the whole thing.
It's also important to consider Kronwalls targets. He always goes after star players who are the non-heavyweight type (Voracek, Selanne, Havlat). So it's not like he has to worry about defending his hits against a guy like Chris Neil. However he's shown that he won't even go with middleweights like Kesler so it again poses the idea that he can dish, but he can't take.
This is just as predatory as any of Kronwalls, Doan sees him not looking and accelerates into him, what does Kronwall do? Gets up and plays the game. He isnt a hypocrite.
He isnt looking or aware of getting hit in either of these, he gets up and continues playing. I would have a problem if Kronwall was always trying to fight after these plays against him, but he doesnt. He can dish it out and take it
Really? Give me a break. He fought Cooke who was an experienced fighter. You know that was Moore's only NHL fight, right? He shouldnt be expected to fight the Canucks heavyweight.
Dont even get me started here. Moore did what he had to do. He fought 6 minutes into the damn game. He couldnt have been "ducking and dodging" for too long if he only had one shift before the damn fight with Cooke
One shift where he ducked Brad May. He didn't want to have to fight guys like that, shouldn't be throwing hits like that. Actions have consequences.
