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When Markov's back, what happens to Kaberle?

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Old
03-09-2012, 11:19 AM
  #51
habs03
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
IMO Its a lot easier to deal a Kaberle contract in the summer when teams have space rather than during the season where rosters are already set.


That said, given the behavior of NHL GMs I'm sure someone is going to look at Kaberle as a top 30 scoring defenseman over his deficiencies. I think he'll be movable so long as your not asking for the moon in return.
Not exactly,

injuries happen, less cap space is needed to get a guy with Kaberle salary at around mid-season and the trade deadline. And teams are a bit more desperate during the season.

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03-09-2012, 11:19 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
If Markov comes back and has a strong 10 games or so to end the year, Kaberle gets dealt this offseason.

And what's hilarious is everyone saying what an awful trade it was, when all we gave up was a non-asset in Spacek, and we are going to likely fetch ourselves a pretty decent return. Classic case of buying low, and selling high. Great asset management by PG.

In regards to the D next year, I'd like to see us sign a Paul Mara type to keep the spot warm for Tinordi. Tinordi is going to be an absolute animal, and I think he's damn close to the show, probably just needs 40 games or so in the AHL to lessen the learning curve.


Markov-Gorges
Emelin-Subban
Mara/Tinordi-Diaz/Weber
It was a bad trade and will remain so. You are making a huge assumption that if traded the team would get anything of real value in return.

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03-09-2012, 11:21 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
It was a bad trade and will remain so. You are making a huge assumption that if traded the team would get anything of real value in return.
No its not a huge assumption, you look around at guys that are similar to Kaberle in regard to play/ contract, and you see what they went for....

"Ziclicky has 16 points in 48 games this year, and the Wild got Palmieri and a 2nd round pick for him.

Even with the extra year and 250K, Kaberle has more value than Zidlicky.

Now I don't think MTL will trade Kaberle until maybe next year's deadline at the earliest or offseason, after seeing how Markov recovers. But if/when it does happen, we will get a better return that what Spacek.

Funny how Canes GM Rutherford said he regretted signing Kaberle, but his biggest regret is going to be trading him too soon."

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03-09-2012, 11:22 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
It was a bad trade and will remain so. You are making a huge assumption that if traded the team would get anything of real value in return.
How?

Because PG bought low? That's how people win deals...

We will get back more than a expiring Spacek which will make the deal a win.

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03-09-2012, 11:37 AM
  #55
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Kaberle will be here at least until such time as Markov's health can be trusted. That will be frustrating to watch at times but the reality. In the list of priorities that a new GM might have trading Kaberle would be not near the top. Bigger fish to fry as the saying goes.

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03-09-2012, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
How?

Because PG bought low? That's how people win deals...

We will get back more than a expiring Spacek which will make the deal a win.
I agree.

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03-09-2012, 11:40 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
How?

Because PG bought low? That's how people win deals...

We will get back more than a expiring Spacek which will make the deal a win.
So he has his share of points. He did better in POINTS that some expects yet was just as awful defensively as some thought he was. Now, for whoever keeps saying that he was pretty good so far, it DOES have to mean that he will get us a pretty good return when we are going to trade him, right? Right? Again, can't wait to see that trade happening. If not, keeping him and still pay him this amount of money when you have to re-sign your core players soon in Price, Subban and even MaxPac, is NOT what I call buying low. But hey, it is a start right? We are so used at losing trades then whenever we don't lose it on a player level, we feel like we didn't do a bad job?

Strangely, the Cammy-Bourque trade is seen around him as a not so bad trade based on the money we are saying per year.....yet, why can't we used the same argument for the Kaberle-Spacek deal? WE DO NOT NEED a player like Kaberle in our lineup. We need bigger players. And for every point Kaberle put in, I can tell you, RIGHT NOW, that if he'd be put in the same kind of situation or let's say he is not ready this year, NEXT YEAR, Emelin will be putting the same type of points....MINUS the stupid defensive mistakes. Emelin's offensive game is really underrated around here and for that management team. Yet, he'll show it next year and they'll have no choice but to use him accordingly.

So the Kaberle trade is NOT an awful deal. But it's a bad one based on his overall play and on the money he's making. But for every person who thinks I'm wrong, well I will be awaiting his trade and this great return we will have for a guy who has such great stats with us.....Another 1st round pick for us this year!!!

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03-09-2012, 11:42 AM
  #58
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Keep him as a bottom pairing guy. FA class is slim pickings and it's not like we have much in terms of vet D depth to begin with.


Last edited by Em Ancien: 03-09-2012 at 11:48 AM.
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03-09-2012, 11:45 AM
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I think he'll seem like a lot less of a liability when he's paired with someone who doesn't share all his weaknesses on 5-on-5.

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03-09-2012, 12:05 PM
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I think he'll seem like a lot less of a liability when he's paired with someone who doesn't share all his weaknesses on 5-on-5.
THis

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03-09-2012, 12:19 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
So he has his share of points. He did better in POINTS that some expects yet was just as awful defensively as some thought he was. Now, for whoever keeps saying that he was pretty good so far, it DOES have to mean that he will get us a pretty good return when we are going to trade him, right? Right? Again, can't wait to see that trade happening. If not, keeping him and still pay him this amount of money when you have to re-sign your core players soon in Price, Subban and even MaxPac, is NOT what I call buying low. But hey, it is a start right? We are so used at losing trades then whenever we don't lose it on a player level, we feel like we didn't do a bad job?

Strangely, the Cammy-Bourque trade is seen around him as a not so bad trade based on the money we are saying per year.....yet, why can't we used the same argument for the Kaberle-Spacek deal? WE DO NOT NEED a player like Kaberle in our lineup. We need bigger players. And for every point Kaberle put in, I can tell you, RIGHT NOW, that if he'd be put in the same kind of situation or let's say he is not ready this year, NEXT YEAR, Emelin will be putting the same type of points....MINUS the stupid defensive mistakes. Emelin's offensive game is really underrated around here and for that management team. Yet, he'll show it next year and they'll have no choice but to use him accordingly.

So the Kaberle trade is NOT an awful deal. But it's a bad one based on his overall play and on the money he's making. But for every person who thinks I'm wrong, well I will be awaiting his trade and this great return we will have for a guy who has such great stats with us.....Another 1st round pick for us this year!!!
Kaberle is nowhere as bad defensively as some on here would have you think.

+- on a struggling team is meaningless, even Plekanec who is one of the best 2 way centers in the NHL is a minus this year. Chris Phillips was a huge minus 35 on a struggling Ottawa team last year, this year he is magically +4.

The biggest problem with Kaberle is he is playing with Campoli when he needs a partner that is primarily a stay ot home d-man.

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03-09-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Kaberle is nowhere as bad defensively as some on here would have you think.

+- on a struggling team is meaningless, even Plekanec who is one of the best 2 way centers in the NHL is a minus this year. Chris Phillips was a huge minus 35 on a struggling Ottawa team last year, this year he is magically +4.

The biggest problem with Kaberle is he is playing with Campoli when he needs a partner that is primarily a stay ot home d-man.
So his freebie to Omark while playing with Emelin was a fluke?

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03-09-2012, 12:35 PM
  #63
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So his freebie to Omark while playing with Emelin was a fluke?
That was more a poor offensive decision(with the puck) than a defensive one(coverage/positionning).

I'm sure I can find a screw ups from every defenseman in the NHL, including TWO huge gaffes by Chara the last time we played Boston.

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03-09-2012, 12:44 PM
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I agree with you completely about +/-, my biggest issue with Kaberle is that if Markov is back, we need balance and I'd rather give a chance to someone with upside like Diaz, and so I'd move Kaberle if possible. The hate around here is too much, he's a very flawed player though.

IMO the biggest issue with our defense right now is less personnel than it is balance. We have too many similar kinds of players. The worst player back there, Campoli, for all the talk about how Gauthier is worse than Houle for signing him, was a replacement for Picard and if it wasn't for injuries and the Gill tank trade, would be on the bench at least if we had competent coaching.

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03-09-2012, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
So he has his share of points. He did better in POINTS that some expects yet was just as awful defensively as some thought he was. Now, for whoever keeps saying that he was pretty good so far, it DOES have to mean that he will get us a pretty good return when we are going to trade him, right? Right? Again, can't wait to see that trade happening. If not, keeping him and still pay him this amount of money when you have to re-sign your core players soon in Price, Subban and even MaxPac, is NOT what I call buying low. But hey, it is a start right? We are so used at losing trades then whenever we don't lose it on a player level, we feel like we didn't do a bad job?

Strangely, the Cammy-Bourque trade is seen around him as a not so bad trade based on the money we are saying per year.....yet, why can't we used the same argument for the Kaberle-Spacek deal? WE DO NOT NEED a player like Kaberle in our lineup. We need bigger players. And for every point Kaberle put in, I can tell you, RIGHT NOW, that if he'd be put in the same kind of situation or let's say he is not ready this year, NEXT YEAR, Emelin will be putting the same type of points....MINUS the stupid defensive mistakes. Emelin's offensive game is really underrated around here and for that management team. Yet, he'll show it next year and they'll have no choice but to use him accordingly.

So the Kaberle trade is NOT an awful deal. But it's a bad one based on his overall play and on the money he's making. But for every person who thinks I'm wrong, well I will be awaiting his trade and this great return we will have for a guy who has such great stats with us.....Another 1st round pick for us this year!!!
Great fair post, I like the comparison between the Cammy trade and the Kaberle trade, but I have to add, in trading Cammy we saved money and got a player who has produced pretty much the same amount of goals in the past 2+ years, where as in the Kaberle trade, Kaberle is miles ahead of Spacek.

All in all, the only way this is a bad deal is if MTL that 4.25M (6.65% of the cap), effects us greatly in signing/re-signing players. And if you look at the cap and possible price for our key guys (Price 5.5/PK 3M), we should still have 8-9M of space space (Gomez gone).

And at worst case, as shown with the Zidlicky trade, you can get a pick for Kaberle.

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03-09-2012, 01:00 PM
  #66
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Keep him as a bottom pairing guy. FA class is slim pickings and it's not like we have much in terms of vet D depth to begin with.
Get rid of him, by any means necessary.

Look at Garrison, Rome, Allen, Carle in free agency.

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03-09-2012, 01:03 PM
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We aren't going to win anything if our defense has Kaberle on it. We already have Markov,Diaz,Weber. And honestly 3 of those guys is too much. Add Kaberle and then you have the softest D core in the league. He HAS to go if we want to win anything next year. That defense has to be a lot better.

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03-09-2012, 01:08 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Kaberle is nowhere as bad defensively as some on here would have you think.

+- on a struggling team is meaningless, even Plekanec who is one of the best 2 way centers in the NHL is a minus this year. Chris Phillips was a huge minus 35 on a struggling Ottawa team last year, this year he is magically +4.

The biggest problem with Kaberle is he is playing with Campoli when he needs a partner that is primarily a stay ot home d-man.
This x20

I like Markov too but lets see him play a full season before taking away any other player who can producer on the powerplay.

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03-09-2012, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBuriedHab View Post
We aren't going to win anything if our defense has Kaberle on it. We already have Markov,Diaz,Weber. And honestly 3 of those guys is too much. Add Kaberle and then you have the softest D core in the league. He HAS to go if we want to win anything next year. That defense has to be a lot better.
Expect that ideal Diaz and Weber are 7-8th guys, not in our top 6.

have 3 good pairings...

Markov-Emelin
UFA (Allen/Jackman)-Subban
Kabere-Gorges


Ex Daiz Weber

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03-09-2012, 01:14 PM
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Gorges as 3rd pairing? Really? That'd be a waste...

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03-09-2012, 01:16 PM
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Expect that ideal Diaz and Weber are 7-8th guys, not in our top 6.

have 3 good pairings...

Markov-Emelin
UFA (Allen/Jackman)-Subban
Kabere-Gorges


Ex Daiz Weber
That defense scares me. If thats our D another tough year is ahead.

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03-09-2012, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Kaberle is nowhere as bad defensively as some on here would have you think.

+- on a struggling team is meaningless, even Plekanec who is one of the best 2 way centers in the NHL is a minus this year. Chris Phillips was a huge minus 35 on a struggling Ottawa team last year, this year he is magically +4.

The biggest problem with Kaberle is he is playing with Campoli when he needs a partner that is primarily a stay ot home d-man.
When did WS reference +/- in talking about Kaberle? Wasn't anywhere in the post you quoted.


In fact, I don't think I've read anyone focusing on +/- as a measure of how bad Kaberle is defensively.

Looking only at the stat line is a very poor way of evaluating how well/effective a player is.

The biggest problem with Kaberle is that he is paid too much for what he brings to the table.
He's weak in every aspect of being an NHL dman without the puck. For a guy as weak physically as he is, it's surprising how often he's out of position, he has absolutely no grit/toughness to his game, plays soft in front of the net and along the boards, and avoids contact like it's contagious.

He's a decent skater, and a good passer, that's about the extent of his "qualities" as a player...

4.25M$ for that is far too much, that's his "biggest problem".

You don't pay that kind of money for a player who is best used as a bottom-pairing guy with additional PP time unless perhaps you're a contender and you can justify "splurging" b/c your cap is otherwise very well managed and you can afford to "waste" money to fill a specific hole.

For a cap spending team that is dead-last in the eastern conference, you move a player like that ASAP.

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03-09-2012, 01:21 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
So he has his share of points. He did better in POINTS that some expects yet was just as awful defensively as some thought he was. Now, for whoever keeps saying that he was pretty good so far, it DOES have to mean that he will get us a pretty good return when we are going to trade him, right? Right? Again, can't wait to see that trade happening. If not, keeping him and still pay him this amount of money when you have to re-sign your core players soon in Price, Subban and even MaxPac, is NOT what I call buying low. But hey, it is a start right? We are so used at losing trades then whenever we don't lose it on a player level, we feel like we didn't do a bad job?

Strangely, the Cammy-Bourque trade is seen around him as a not so bad trade based on the money we are saying per year.....yet, why can't we used the same argument for the Kaberle-Spacek deal? WE DO NOT NEED a player like Kaberle in our lineup. We need bigger players. And for every point Kaberle put in, I can tell you, RIGHT NOW, that if he'd be put in the same kind of situation or let's say he is not ready this year, NEXT YEAR, Emelin will be putting the same type of points....MINUS the stupid defensive mistakes. Emelin's offensive game is really underrated around here and for that management team. Yet, he'll show it next year and they'll have no choice but to use him accordingly.

So the Kaberle trade is NOT an awful deal. But it's a bad one based on his overall play and on the money he's making. But for every person who thinks I'm wrong, well I will be awaiting his trade and this great return we will have for a guy who has such great stats with us.....Another 1st round pick for us this year!!!
I really don't get what you are so upset about. Kaberle was bought low, for an expiring body in Spacek, and he has since helped our PP and has turned himself into an asset. It's win/win, and I truly am starting to think that anyone who thinks otherwise has some sort of agenda...

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03-09-2012, 01:21 PM
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When did WS reference +/- in talking about Kaberle? Wasn't anywhere in the post you quoted.


In fact, I don't think I've read anyone focusing on +/- as a measure of how bad Kaberle is defensively.

Looking only at the stat line is a very poor way of evaluating how well/effective a player is.

The biggest problem with Kaberle is that he is paid too much for what he brings to the table.
He's weak in every aspect of being an NHL dman without the puck. For a guy as weak physically as he is, it's surprising how often he's out of position, he has absolutely no grit/toughness to his game, plays soft in front of the net and along the boards, and avoids contact like it's contagious.

He's a decent skater, and a good passer, that's about the extent of his "qualities" as a player...

4.25M$ for that is far too much, that's his "biggest problem".

You don't pay that kind of money for a player who is best used as a bottom-pairing guy with additional PP time unless perhaps you're a contender and you can justify "splurging" b/c your cap is otherwise very well managed and you can afford to "waste" money to fill a specific hole.

For a cap spending team that is dead-last in the eastern conference, you move a player like that ASAP.
Agreed 100%. Its sad to see people defending him because of all these secondary assists he has. I guess they and PG share an eye for talent.

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03-09-2012, 01:22 PM
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When Markov comes back kaberle will go the way of old yeller.

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