He is looking very good now. He showed flashes of his grinding style when he came up the first time. He is finally comfortable in the nhl and I wouldn't be surprised he gets promoted to play with Bergeron soon.
He is looking very good now. He showed flashes of his grinding style when he came up the first time. He is finally comfortable in the nhl and I wouldn't be surprised he gets promoted to play with Bergeron soon.
He did last night, so I suspect we'll see him there next game
What do you mean? Which prospects need NHL playing time? No one "needs" playing time, they need to EARN playing time by playing well in Providence, which hasnt happened a lot. Sauve, Arniel, Spooner and Knight have proven nothing to be considered replacements for Paille. Right now, if Paille is our best option, and his contract demands are in the same ballpark as what we wanna pay him, then you re sign him.
Like I've said before, Chiarelli isnt going to give these guys long term contracts. If our prospects end up outperforming the vets next year, the contracts Chiarelli signed them to will most likely be very tradeable contracts, and could be off loaded to another team in the blink of an eye. Not for much in return obviously, but if we have a rookie at a better contract who is outperforming the vet, then thats value in itself.
You dont let a good performer go because we "have prospects to take his spot." You make the prospects outperform the vets and earn playing time.
(This is all under the assumption that their contract demands are reasonable, which certainly isnt a guarantee)
Had a spot not opened up for him, Jordan Caron wouldn't have gotten to play most of the season in the NHL and thus would not have developed into the player we see now. Guys don't just suddenly turn into NHLers while playing in the AHL. Yes they have to prove themselves worthy of a chance and often that happens in training camp, but ultimately these guys need to be given real NHL ice time before they can full develop.
I'm not saying a guy like Knight or Spooner is more deserving of a spot right now, but a lot of these guys are on a development curve where you can reasonably predict that they'll challenge for a spot in training camp. If you're paying someone like Paille 1.5 million to take up an NHL roster spot, then it can be really hard for these kids to crack the roster no matter how good their camp is. Paille has been a good player for us, but he is what he is and doesn't really have any upside and he'll probably get at least a small raise this summer. Teams eventually have to let players like him walk as a calculated risk because it gives the kids a chance to develop. Otherwise, prospects would never be able to develop into NHL players.
Had a spot not opened up for him, Jordan Caron wouldn't have gotten to play most of the season in the NHL and thus would not have developed into the player we see now. Guys don't just suddenly turn into NHLers while playing in the AHL. Yes they have to prove themselves worthy of a chance and often that happens in training camp, but ultimately these guys need to be given real NHL ice time before they can full develop.
I'm not saying a guy like Knight or Spooner is more deserving of a spot right now, but a lot of these guys are on a development curve where you can reasonably predict that they'll challenge for a spot in training camp. If you're paying someone like Paille 1.5 million to take up an NHL roster spot, then it can be really hard for these kids to crack the roster no matter how good their camp is. Paille has been a good player for us, but he is what he is and doesn't really have any upside and he'll probably get at least a small raise this summer. Teams eventually have to let players like him walk as a calculated risk because it gives the kids a chance to develop. Otherwise, prospects would never be able to develop into NHL players.
With these type of Free Agents you dont have to take a caluculated risk tho. They are the best 4th line in hockey, if you can retain them for the right money you do it, no questions asked.
And like you said above, injuries ALWAYS happen, spots always open up somehow. Having young players like Caron step in for veterans and showing they deserve the spot more than the veteran is part of hockey, and my whole point.
Lets say we re sign all three of them, and Paille gets hurt next season for 4-6 weeks. Sauve comes in and absolutely kills it, performs far better than Paille will/could, and earns himself a position...that renders Paille expendable. The contract Chiarelli signed him for will most likely make Paille a tradeable asset. You dont think teams would want a player like Paille on a short team deal? Hell yes they would. You wouldnt get much for him, but the competition factor of that rookie playing his ass off to beat Paille, plus the smaller contract, would be worth it in itself.
There are definitely calculated risks with top players. Re signing Krejci when Seguin (natural center, turning into our best offensive player) is waiting in the wings is a calculated risk, which hopefully pans out.
With the 4th line, if theyre successful and could be retained for a term that would fit into your cap structure you re sign them without even thinking. (IMO)
One thing I noticed about Caron during pre game warm ups @ SCF last year, he has the most impressive & accurate wrister on the club. At least in warm ups. Anybody here catching the Kings/ducks swing in 2 wks?
He did last night, so I suspect we'll see him there next game
Yes,it's obvious Rolston is more suited to 3rd or 4th line duty,Rolston will be defensively responsible and kill penalties but I don't think we will get any offense out of him.If Caron can hold his own with the Bergeron line it will be a big boost to the team ,if he does well,the B's can leave him there the rest of the year and put Peverley on the 3d line.If Horton comes back then Caron goes to the 3rd line.
Had a spot not opened up for him, Jordan Caron wouldn't have gotten to play most of the season in the NHL and thus would not have developed into the player we see now. Guys don't just suddenly turn into NHLers while playing in the AHL. Yes they have to prove themselves worthy of a chance and often that happens in training camp, but ultimately these guys need to be given real NHL ice time before they can full develop.
I'm not saying a guy like Knight or Spooner is more deserving of a spot right now, but a lot of these guys are on a development curve where you can reasonably predict that they'll challenge for a spot in training camp. If you're paying someone like Paille 1.5 million to take up an NHL roster spot, then it can be really hard for these kids to crack the roster no matter how good their camp is. Paille has been a good player for us, but he is what he is and doesn't really have any upside and he'll probably get at least a small raise this summer. Teams eventually have to let players like him walk as a calculated risk because it gives the kids a chance to develop. Otherwise, prospects would never be able to develop into NHL players.
Are you serious? A guy like Caron was Avg in the AHL. Look at detroits system and how they develope players or even how Burke handled Getzlaf and Perry in Anaheim. Make them dominate the level they are playing. Caron didn't even find his swagger in the AHL so expecting it to stick in the NHL is a joke.
Are you serious? A guy like Caron was Avg in the AHL. Look at detroits system and how they develope players or even how Burke handled Getzlaf and Perry in Anaheim. Make them dominate the level they are playing. Caron didn't even find his swagger in the AHL so expecting it to stick in the NHL is a joke.
agreed...at absolute best this guy is a lefty mike knuble. and that's a pretty damned good 3rd line player. just not sure he'll even get there.
agreed...at absolute best this guy is a lefty mike knuble. and that's a pretty damned good 3rd line player. just not sure he'll even get there.
Maybe, but he showed some pretty good tenacity in the past three games. He obviously is raw and has a ways to go, but I was very impressed by his skating and net drive. I think he can build on that and be a good player. We shall see.
Are you serious? A guy like Caron was Avg in the AHL. Look at detroits system and how they develope players or even how Burke handled Getzlaf and Perry in Anaheim. Make them dominate the level they are playing. Caron didn't even find his swagger in the AHL so expecting it to stick in the NHL is a joke.
It's not a "joke" - there are players who are only average in the minors who actually play better at a higher level. Nothing is one size fits all when it comes to player development. You have to judge every player on his own merits.
And if you want to use Detroit as a comp, consider these guys at age 21 (Caron's age):
Player A played 42 games in the Russian Super League - 9 goals, 17 assists.
Player B played 48 games in the Elitserien - 10 goals, 22 assists.
Player A is Pavel Datsyuk. Player B is Henrik Zetterberg.
It's not a "joke" - there are players who are only average in the minors who actually play better at a higher level. Nothing is one size fits all when it comes to player development. You have to judge every player on his own merits.
And if you want to use Detroit as a comp, consider these guys at age 21 (Caron's age):
Player A played 42 games in the Russian Super League - 9 goals, 17 assists.
Player B played 48 games in the Elitserien - 10 goals, 22 assists.
Player A is Pavel Datsyuk. Player B is Henrik Zetterberg.
Different leagues and different levels of competition.
Are you serious? A guy like Caron was Avg in the AHL. Look at detroits system and how they develope players or even how Burke handled Getzlaf and Perry in Anaheim. Make them dominate the level they are playing. Caron didn't even find his swagger in the AHL so expecting it to stick in the NHL is a joke.
I may have missed much of the conversation leading to a bit of confusion Rumpy but not 100% sure of how Burke handled Getzlaf?? Bryan Murray drafted him, RG spent exactly 17 games in the AHL, now, he put up almost 2ppg totals but again, 17 games.
Corey Perry, another Murray draft pick (Burke gets far too much credit for the building of that Duck team IMO), played only 19 AHL games, also putting up almost 2ppg. As you stated, dominant for the short period but both were drafted with far more attention and expectations than JC
Sorry, I`m just a bit confused about the pt about both, and most likely as I haven`t followed the whole conversation here
JC is still a ways from being the best he`ll be IMO, but he`s in a nice groove, fueled by confidence and I`ll just enjoy it while it lasts and if/when he takes a step back, I trust it will be small one, not one that has him spending a full season in the AHL
It's not a "joke" - there are players who are only average in the minors who actually play better at a higher level. Nothing is one size fits all when it comes to player development. You have to judge every player on his own merits.
And if you want to use Detroit as a comp, consider these guys at age 21 (Caron's age):
Player A played 42 games in the Russian Super League - 9 goals, 17 assists.
Player B played 48 games in the Elitserien - 10 goals, 22 assists.
Player A is Pavel Datsyuk. Player B is Henrik Zetterberg.
I'd hesitate to use international players. What I would say is compare the following players in their age 21 season. Players are similar size and were drafted in similar places.
Player A: AHL 17 games 4-9-13, NHL 33 games 6-5-11
Player B: AHL 18 games 2-9-11, NHL 52 games 3-11-14
Player A of course is Caron, Player B is Max Pacioretty. Pacioretty would also go on to play 27 games in the AHL in his age 22 season. Which isn't out of the realm of possibility for Caron depending on how the offseason plays out for the Bruins.
I'd hesitate to use international players. What I would say is compare the following players in their age 21 season. Players are similar size and were drafted in similar places.
Player A: AHL 17 games 4-9-13, NHL 33 games 6-5-11
Player B: AHL 18 games 2-9-11, NHL 52 games 3-11-14
Player A of course is Caron, Player B is Max Pacioretty. Pacioretty would also go on to play 27 games in the AHL in his age 22 season. Which isn't out of the realm of possibility for Caron depending on how the offseason plays out for the Bruins.
Working and on my phone but i'll try a rebuttal off the top of my head.
I know Burke didn't draft Perry or Getzlaf but he said they both had to dominate in the AHL before they made the jump to the NHL and 2 ppg for 15 games seems like a fairly good stretch to me. He also got flack for keeping Ryan in the minors and junior for quite a while and look how that turned out.
Datsyuk and Zetterberg played full seasons on those teams in mens leagues that have different styles of hockey. Neither went back and forth and earned there roster spots in the fall. Abdelkader and Smith are more the guys is was thinking of.
Pretty sure Pax said himself going up and down hurt his development and a full yr in the AHL was good for him? Did they keep him down for a extended period of time after treating him like a yo yo?
Caron hasn't proved anything in providence and some people do make the jump and run with it... I just don't think this is gunna be the case.
Different leagues and different levels of competition.
Well, yes, the NHL is much tougher.
If someone wants to cite "the Detroit model," they should adhere to the basic principle: that players aren't ruled "busts" at 21. On the contrary, they're just getting started.
Working and on my phone but i'll try a rebuttal off the top of my head.
I know Burke didn't draft Perry or Getzlaf but he said they both had to dominate in the AHL before they made the jump to the NHL and 2 ppg for 15 games seems like a fairly good stretch to me. He also got flack for keeping Ryan in the minors and junior for quite a while and look how that turned out.
Datsyuk and Zetterberg played full seasons on those teams in mens leagues that have different styles of hockey. Neither went back and forth and earned there roster spots in the fall. Abdelkader and Smith are more the guys is was thinking of.
Pretty sure Pax said himself going up and down hurt his development and a full yr in the AHL was good for him? Did they keep him down for a extended period of time after treating him like a yo yo?
Caron hasn't proved anything in providence and some people do make the jump and run with it... I just don't think this is gunna be the case.
Based on what...intuition? Certainly not by his play. The guy hasn't been getting gift points bay any means. He is earning every one of them. It is hilarious how most on here seem to think if a player hasn't devloped into a legitimate player by the time he is 21, he won't. Point totals in the minors can easily be a product of the team you are on. Caron had 7 points in 23 games in the NHL as a 20 year old. He has a great shot, good speed, size and Hockey sense. Not too hard to envision him continuing to be a consistant scorer at this level if you just watch him play. His 47 points in 64 carreer minor league games isn't even that bad, but still irrelevent when it comes to whether or not he will be able to maintain his current pace. The kid is playing with confidence now and it shows. If he continues to play well with the Bergy line, just immagine a 3rd line of Kelly Peverly and Horton if they can get healthy.
Based on what...intuition? Certainly not by his play. The guy hasn't been getting gift points bay any means. He is earning every one of them. It is hilarious how most on here seem to think if a player hasn't devloped into a legitimate player by the time he is 21, he won't. Point totals in the minors can easily be a product of the team you are on. Caron had 7 points in 23 games in the NHL as a 20 year old. He has a great shot, good speed, size and Hockey sense. Not too hard to envision him continuing to be a consistant scorer at this level if you just watch him play. His 47 points in 64 carreer minor league games isn't even that bad, but still irrelevent when it comes to whether or not he will be able to maintain his current pace. The kid is playing with confidence now and it shows. If he continues to play well with the Bergy line, just immagine a 3rd line of Kelly Peverly and Horton if they can get healthy.
good points, the confidence thing is so important, and Hamill's handling over the years probably didn't help his cause, if he had been on a different team and had a lower pressure situation and been able to put a season in the nhl he would probably be an nhl'er now
agreed...at absolute best this guy is a lefty mike knuble. and that's a pretty damned good 3rd line player. just not sure he'll even get there.
Well.......I`d argue he`s well above Knuble`s development curve at this point seeing as it took Knuble 11 years of pro hockey to a) really start asserting himself as a pro and b) hit the 30 goal mark which was preceeded by having never scored 20 in the NHL
If someone wants to cite "the Detroit model," they should adhere to the basic principle: that players aren't ruled "busts" at 21. On the contrary, they're just getting started.
Overseas leagues see a drop in offensive numbers, particularly in their development teams so your argument is moot. Datsyuk's numbers would have put him just outside the top 10 overall in points for that year. Look at Adam Larsson. Do you think he'd be the number 4 pick last year with the offensive numbers he put up if he had been playing in the OHL?
Last edited by VeddarRants: 03-12-2012 at 10:26 AM.
agreed...at absolute best this guy is a lefty mike knuble. and that's a pretty damned good 3rd line player. just not sure he'll even get there.
One guy that comes immediately to mind as a player who didn't dominate the development leagues he's been in but is now a very successful NHL player as a top six winger: Brad Marchand.
