Suter would NOT be on the second pairing. He'd be the #1 Dman without question.
I am not so familiar with Suter's game. If he was brought into Toronto, would he and Dion be the top pairing? Would their game styles complement each other?
I am not so familiar with Suter's game. If he was brought into Toronto, would he and Dion be the top pairing? Would their game styles complement each other?
Yes they would be a perfect pairing. Suter plays a very safe and flawless defensive game with nice vision and passing, which is exactly what Dion needs.
I am not so familiar with Suter's game. If he was brought into Toronto, would he and Dion be the top pairing? Would their game styles complement each other?
Suter is a rock defensively. Great skater, makes very smart plays with the puck, can routinely skate himself out of danger, very good positionally, very good PK'er. For my money hes every bit as good as Weber but plays a quieter game. He's easily one of the top 10 defencemen in the league and would fit on a pairing with Phaneuf very well. If I was in charge I would be doing everything I could to shed salary on the backend so that I could make a bigtime offer to Suter.
It's a bit of a red herring because of how they played but remember when the leafs thought Komisarek and Beauchemin would fill that role?
I agree Suter is a pipe dream. I think we actually get a lot out of Phaneuf for our 6.5 mil, because he is better defensively than he gets credit for, (and may actually learn something from Farrish and Carlyle) is an offensive contributor and has a nice ability to crush guys which shouldn't be understated.
But I get where you're coming from.
I think that Gardiner clearly has the physical tools to be something really special but obviously has a ton to learn on how to play in his own end. He may never be the guy who muscles forwards from the front of the net, but he will be better at this than the rafalski/white/ryan ellis/jm liles' of the world.
I think a minute eater like Phaneuf who's good on both sides is tough to find.
Obviously if you can get a Weber you do it, but there aren't many to go around.
Maybe Holzer will be a solid shutdown guy...
Thinking this more. I wouldn't change the defenders (aside from unloading bad contracts) before getting league average goaltending. Fix goaltending and the defenceman will look better.
Want proof - look at the Senators - there defenders, turnover the puck, pinch and have poor gap control (as much and at times) more then the leafs do. That is, our top 4 is better then their top 4 denfenders. The difference is goaltending.
Fix goaltending and the defenceman will look better.
Phaneuf reminds me of McCabe in that sometimes I'd watch them and they seem like the game is an adventure for them, especially in their defensive game. It appears like they just can't think the game really well. And then I watch them another time and they look and play just fine.
Gardiner on the other hand reminds me more of Kaberle in that they're games don't seem to fluctuate as much in that way. But of course their physical games don't compare.
I don't think you focus more on one or the other necessarily.
Thinking this more. I wouldn't change the defenders (aside from unloading bad contracts) before getting league average goaltending. Fix goaltending and the defenceman will look better.
Want proof - look at the Senators - there defenders, turnover the puck, pinch and have poor gap control (as much and at times) more then the leafs do. That is, our top 4 is better then their top 4 denfenders. The difference is goaltending.
Fix goaltending and the defenceman will look better.
Also the Senators are 2nd worse in the league giving up shots (and thus scoring chances). The leafs are like 10th worse - the killer is that bad or soft goal they give up on a point shot that is for example going wide. League average goalies make mistakes (but makes mistakes less often).
And as for the leaf defence making playing poor positionially - well look at the Senators. There is a group that doesn't play defence well. They have plenty of turnovers, uncover defenders in the slot, like players skate around them but Anderson bails them out more then our goalies. Funny enough, their defence doesn't look so bad. Get a league average goalie and team and defence looks instantly better.
Also the Senators are 2nd worse in the league giving up shots (and thus scoring chances). The leafs are like 10th worse - the killer is that bad or soft goal they give up on a point shot that is for example going wide. League average goalies make mistakes (but makes mistakes less often).
And as for the leaf defence making playing poor positionially - well look at the Senators. There is a group that doesn't play defence well. They have plenty of turnovers, uncover defenders in the slot, like players skate around them but Anderson bails them out more then our goalies. Funny enough, their defence doesn't look so bad. Get a league average goalie and team and defence looks instantly better.
While I don't agree that shots = scoring chances, I believe the Sens D is less defensively aware than the Leafs D, the Sens goaltending is better than the Leafs goaltending, and the Sens forwards are far more defensively aware than the Leafs forwards.
If the Leafs can sign Suter, first thing I would do is trade Phaneuf and give Suter the C down the road a bit.
A true number 1 D and leader.
How do you know suter is a leader? He's not even the captain in nashville...
If we trade phaneuf, we'd just end up looking for a true 1b or #2...gunner is a good stop-gap in that role, and gardiner might grow into it, but phaneuf is without a doubt the best d-man we have right now.
While I don't agree that shots = scoring chances, I believe the Sens D is less defensively aware than the Leafs D, the Sens goaltending is better than the Leafs goaltending, and the Sens forwards are far more defensively aware than the Leafs forwards.
I don't know a good way to measure defensive skill (shots are approximate but not perfect) but I do believe the improvement with the biggest impact is league average goaltending, then the next impact (that is harder to implement is coaching coverage), then the third is upgrading defenders/forwards to implement the defensive zone strategy. I guy like Suter or Getzlaf will help defensively but in terms of biggest bang for your buck, take care of goaltending first.
How do you know suter is a leader? He's not even the captain in nashville...
If we trade phaneuf, we'd just end up looking for a true 1b or #2...gunner is a good stop-gap in that role, and gardiner might grow into it, but phaneuf is without a doubt the best d-man we have right now.
Gardiner has a lot to do just to get to Phaneuf's level of frustrating offensive defenseman. Like everyone else, I really appreciate Jake's skillset and skating ability and frame and I look forward to watching him develop here but at the same time, he makes some startlingly bad decisions out there on a regular basis and runs around like a chicken with its head cut off. Whether it's a hockey sense deficiency or whether he's just extremely raw given his development track, who knows, we'll see...
It's become clear that Dion is not a NHL number 1 D-man. He seems to have a lot of physical tools to be an offensive weapon, but certainly doesn't have the stuff to play all situations. For one he doesn't have the stamina, and his left-handed shot on the right side seems to hurt the club on the defensive end. Would it hurt to have Gardiner as our number 1? He certainly has the tools to control the offensive play. Pair him with a responsible right handed defensive defenseman and we could have a great number 1. Dion could be best suited on the 2nd line providing toughness, scoring, and defensive "pinching".
Gardiner ________
Gunn Phan
Liles Schenn
Yes putting a ******** of pressure on a young D is a good deciison, if u don't believe look at luke schenn. No serious.
Both are very good D and teams would be lucky to have phaneuf as there #1 D
Also OP, how has it become clear phaneuf isn't a #1? Just because u think it, and automatically make a new thread on it doesn't mean its true
Gardiner has the potential to be a very good offensive Dman, but he's not there yet. Look at his stats... for all of his speed/skill, as well as a ton of ice time (including significant time on the PP), he only has one more point than Luke Schenn! We can see the potential, but it hasn't translated into points. He has a lot of skill, but we're not talking about EK here.
On top of that, like Stephen said, he frequently looks lost defensively, running around in his own end. That should change with Carlyle behind the bench (I think all of our Dmen will benefit from having a coach who actually teaches and stresses defensive systems).
Gardiner is also the softest Dman we have. He shows little interest in the physical side of the game, and consistently loses battles along the boards and in the corners. Bigger players power right through him on the rush, and he often fails to contain his man, even when he's right beside him (as in the Kelly goal the other night). Being a number 1 Dman means going up against the other team's top line and shutting them down. Gardiner is nowhere near being up to that challenge right now. Not even close!
We can all see the makings of a future PP quarterback, a guy who can lug the puck out of our end and create scoring opportunities, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. The primary goal of playing effective defense is taking care of things in your own end, and Gardiner has a lot to learn and a long way to go before there should be any talk about him being the number 1 guy.
Gardiner has the potential to be a very good offensive Dman, but he's not there yet. Look at his stats... for all of his speed/skill, as well as a ton of ice time (including significant time on the PP), he only has one more point than Luke Schenn! We can see the potential, but it hasn't translated into points. He has a lot of skill, but we're not talking about EK here.
On top of that, like Stephen said, he frequently looks lost defensively, running around in his own end. That should change with Carlyle behind the bench (I think all of our Dmen will benefit from having a coach who actually teaches and stresses defensive systems).
Gardiner is also the softest Dman we have. He shows little interest in the physical side of the game, and consistently loses battles along the boards and in the corners. Bigger players power right through him on the rush, and he often fails to contain his man, even when he's right beside him (as in the Kelly goal the other night). Being a number 1 Dman means going up against the other team's top line and shutting them down. Gardiner is nowhere near being up to that challenge right now. Not even close!
We can all see the makings of a future PP quarterback, a guy who can lug the puck out of our end and create scoring opportunities, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. The primary goal of playing effective defense is taking care of things in your own end, and Gardiner has a lot to learn and a long way to go before there should be any talk about him being the number 1 guy.
Gardiner has a lot to do just to get to Phaneuf's level of frustrating offensive defenseman. Like everyone else, I really appreciate Jake's skillset and skating ability and frame and I look forward to watching him develop here but at the same time, he makes some startlingly bad decisions out there on a regular basis and runs around like a chicken with its head cut off. Whether it's a hockey sense deficiency or whether he's just extremely raw given his development track, who knows, we'll see...
this.
All this love for Gardiner is getting out of hand. He's not THAT good yet....
I for one, am getting sick of watching him figure skate around while the whole team wonders what the heck he's doing.
Not every team can have the greatest defensive 1st line players. I honestly can't remember who the top defensive pairing on some stanley cup winners have been.
I mean, Carolina when they won had Babchuck, Wallin, Aaron Ward (palm face), Kaberle and Commadore doing the heavy lifting, when Dallas won the cup I thought they had no chance to win because they're D was full of garbage (minus Sydor), but you have to work out a system that works and tailor a FULL SEASON to a defensive core.
Compared to most teams that Leafs defensive options are quite high because they have a lot of different style players who could step up. Liles is a great d man, Franson in my opinion is only going to get miles better, Gardiner is going to be a good player, Schenn will be good if he could just stop listening to people telling him to do a million different things differently and just go out there shut people down and devastate them with a hit.
There's 4 right there that could make up a core of a great seasonal run. That's missing our current captain, our useless assistant captain, our generally most consistent d man (gunnarsson), some of our most appealing young talent including Blacker, Holzer, Percy, Granberg, Mikus, Everson etc.
Sorry for the length, but my point is that you can trade these players, but, first, they're expensive, second, they will be asking for a lot in return and finally, the leafs don't generally acquire good things for bad things unless the name is Lebda or Kaberle on d anyways so its all a guessing game lol.
Thoughts anyone? My opinion is go for someone no one is expecting... like give a lot for Duncan Keith (that would be SICK!)
