from the last post on the other thread, I'm pretty sure when Burke signed on in Toronto, that the ownership doesn't have much of or any say in what he does? Anyone can confirm that?
from the last post on the other thread, I'm pretty sure when Burke signed on in Toronto, that the ownership doesn't have much of or any say in what he does? Anyone can confirm that?
Burke has 100% control, his terms were that MLSE stayed put of his business.
from the last post on the other thread, I'm pretty sure when Burke signed on in Toronto, that the ownership doesn't have much of or any say in what he does? Anyone can confirm that?
From what I can remember it sounded like the two parties were on a similar wavelength anyway so there was little need to have a say or interfere.
While I understand that it's Toronto and other fans obsess over the team, one thread of this wasn't enough? Any other team and that first thread doesn't make 1k posts.
While I understand that it's Toronto and other fans obsess over the team, one thread of this wasn't enough? Any other team and that first thread doesn't make 1k posts.
Fans on an English hockey forum have a lot to say about a franchise with by far the most English media attention and the largest English fanbase? Your point is?
The Leafs are always going to get a lot of attention. If they suck, that attention will be negative. Deal with it.
While I understand that it's Toronto and other fans obsess over the team, one thread of this wasn't enough? Any other team and that first thread doesn't make 1k posts.
What's the issue? If it's on the second thread, then it's obviously a topic that people have interest in discussing. For me, I think it's a pretty fair question to ask Leaf fans...how can he still be so popular amongst a large majority of Leaf fans despite entering year 5 of his tenure with them, with no internal cap, and full autonomy to make decisions...and yet no real progress to show for it? It's sort of perplexing if you ask me.
I think his brazenness has something to do with it, where he cowtows to the fan base by constantly referring to Toronto as the "hockey mecca" of the NHL. But how many more years will Burke be allowed to give his end of the year press conference saying things like "the goal is the playoffs and we failed," or "we think we're close to becoming a playoff team."
What's the issue? If it's on the second thread, then it's obviously a topic that people have interest in discussing. For me, I think it's a pretty fair question to ask Leaf fans...how can he still be so popular amongst a large majority of Leaf fans despite entering year 5 of his tenure with them, with no internal cap, and full autonomy to make decisions...and yet no real progress to show for it? It's sort of perplexing if you ask me.
I think his brazenness has something to do with it, where he cowtows to the fan base by constantly referring to Toronto as the "hockey mecca" of the NHL. But how many more years will Burke be allowed to give his end of the year press conference saying things like "the goal is the playoffs and we failed," or "we think we're close to becoming a playoff team."
I still like him because hes built a future, even though its not showing up in the standings right now.
I still like him because hes built a future, even though its not showing up in the standings right now.
Any GM would draft and acquire some future assets while finishing in the bottom ten of the entire league every season (probably even a Seguin or Hamilton). Congrats, Burke . . . I guess.
While I understand that it's Toronto and other fans obsess over the team, one thread of this wasn't enough? Any other team and that first thread doesn't make 1k posts.
Toronto has failed to make the post-season 6 years in a row. An NHL team has failed to make the playoffs for 6 straight years only 20 times in the history of the NHL... And the Leafs are looking very likely to make it 7 in a row.
On top of that, Florida has as good a shot as any team to win the Southeast (very easy schedule remaining), leaving Toronto as the ONLY team to miss the playoffs every year post-lockout.
If any major market (Canadian team, or Rangers/Blackhawks/Bruins/Red Wings/etc) was in the same boat - that kind of repeated failure - and also had an outspoken GM like Burke - there would be a 1,000+ post discussion on it easily.
What's the issue? If it's on the second thread, then it's obviously a topic that people have interest in discussing. For me, I think it's a pretty fair question to ask Leaf fans...how can he still be so popular amongst a large majority of Leaf fans despite entering year 5 of his tenure with them, with no internal cap, and full autonomy to make decisions...and yet no real progress to show for it? It's sort of perplexing if you ask me.
I think his brazenness has something to do with it, where he cowtows to the fan base by constantly referring to Toronto as the "hockey mecca" of the NHL. But how many more years will Burke be allowed to give his end of the year press conference saying things like "the goal is the playoffs and we failed," or "we think we're close to becoming a playoff team."
Its quite perplexing that someone would think a team with leading scores of Jason Blake and Matt Stajan is somehow equivalent to this year's team.
Its quite perplexing that someone would think a team with leading scores of Jason Blake and Matt Stajan is somehow equivalent to this year's team.
That '08-09 team finished with 81 points, which is most likely going to be better than this year's, along with a 12th place finish (exactly where the current Leafs sit). Not to mention that Jason Blake's numbers that year were far better than Grabovski's this year, and he was just given a $5.5 million contract by Burke.
No offense, but your post sort of unintentionally uncovers part of the answer to the question at hand. That 08-09 team actually finished with a better record than this year's version of the Leafs is going to finish, but they didn't have the star power that this current version has. Is that why Leaf fans give him a pass? Is it because the current version of the Leafs, despite actually being just as bad or worse as the team he inherited, have more sexy names than the team that he inherited? Is that the answer?
Why do Leaf fans like Brian Burke so much? A lot of reasons:
1) There are a lot of misnomers on here. For one Burke's not responsible for the 6 seasons post lockout where this team hasn't been a playoff team. He's only been a part of the team for 4 seasons and the first season, he came in halfway through the season (more or less) and the team was already largely made at that point. So he's really responsible for three seasons missing it (assuming they miss it this year).
2) When he took over, the team didn't have much to look forward. The prospect pool was incredibly depleted, the team itself was filled with a lot of crap and had a lot of overpaid players. Burke systematically took out the trash, built up a core of young players, and has added to the prospect pool to take from one of the worst in team history to one of the deepest in team history.
3) So yes, while they are on pace again to miss the playoffs, Burke has done a lot for the future of this team. The future is bright even though the present is bleak. We have two players in the top 10 of scoring, both under 29 and one under 25 (who is one of the best goal scorers in the league), he has a young deep defense (although it needs a lot of work).
The fact that so many here hate him makes us like him even more.
Anything that pisses off hf haters is a good thing. Keep it up Burke.
Yes, it'd be a terrible thing for you to judge him based on his body of work
For reference, here's PresidentComacho's post from the last thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by PresidentCamacho
2009 – on achieving 8th place
Quote:
"Like I said from the start, our goal and our intent is to be in the playoffs," Burke said this afternoon at the Huntsville retreat the team is spending the next three days to practice and bond prior to Thursday's season opener against Montreal. "We think we are good enough to make the playoffs. We're stopping short of bold predictions and anything that will end up on a bulletin board. We believe the group (is ready) and if not, we'll get back to work."
Here begins the stagnant "strategy" if one can call it that. Burke trades two 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd round draft pick for Phil Kessel. He adds Beauchemin, Komisarek, and Orr, as well. The goal is the playoffs.
"Is there any doubt that Tyler Bozak and Christian Hanson wouldn't be first round picks in the draft?"
He fails to qualify for 8th place out of the 15 teams. Instead he ices a 29th placed team. Apparently you need an NHL goalie and defence to do well in this league. Who knew? Burke gets "back to work" for his 2nd try at pursuing an average placement of 8th place out of 15 Eastern Conference teams.
No customary 2nd overall that comes with finishing "last or dead last" (as we'll get to). Pity.
2010 – on achieving 8th place
Quote:
“If you notice, we’ve avoided any bold proclamations. They tend to get pinned up on bulletin boards,” said Burke. “It’s our goal and our intention to participate in the playoffs.”
In other words, I'm not promising playoffs, but our organization is trying our best to make the playoffs. We'll even trade our prospects for Kris Versteeg, sign Armstrong (Leaf Nation appoints him the best third liner in the game, for real), and roll with Gigeure and Gustavsson. Dion Phaneuf is surely a defensive stalwart, along with Luke Schenn, and Mike Komisarek. Those defenders will help the goalies out. :
2011 – on a FAILING attempt mid-season at 8th place
Quote:
"The goal for the season was the playoffs, it is the playoffs," Burke says. "But we are rebuilding. It's not a classic rebuild. I don't think in a cap system, you have to finish last or dead last for four or five years...
This rebuilding model, he notes, has no precedent. There are no blueprints.
You know what Burkie, I do agree with you here. I also don't think "you have to finish last or dead last for four or five years". I think a terrible team should only be terrible as long as they actually are terrible. On the other hand, here you have a turd of a team, spray-painted gold at the price of the single most valuable roster asset the team has ever encountered since the Wendel Clark 1st overall pick, who was eventually consolidated into Mats Sundin.
Ah, but Burke's got that angle covered. He was there when Alexander Daigle was drafted. Don't worry Leafs fans. All is well.
2011 – on NOT achieving 8th place
Quote:
"You don't make the playoffs, it's a failure. There can be no debate in our sport about that.”
I agree Burke. There can't be a debate about it. We couldn't fault you for the 08/09 finish, but from there you wrote your own fate.
Quote:
"I was born impatient and I'm going to die impatient."
You're trying to rebuild a team.
"Moron". - Kevin Lowe
Quote:
“The general manager can try and spin things when you miss the playoffs.”
Oh yes you do. You and your loyalist zealous fans.
2011 - on his net-out approach
Quote:
“I think this team stacks up to just about any other team in the (Eastern Conference) in terms of the blueline,” Burke said. “We think we are set in net. We think James Reimer is the real deal.
Okay, so now we aren't JUST a playoff team. We are now as good as any of them. Why? Well Reimer has a .920 save percentage, of course! (cough, 37 NHL games of experience, cough, cough)
2011 – on achieving 8th place
Quote:
“We think we made some changes that made our team dramatically better,” Burke said prior to the team’s annual charity golf tournament at Rattlesnake Point Golf Club. “Those things have put us in a position where we want to be, which is to compete for a playoff spot.”
Excellent. Can't wait for your fourth attempt at 8th place out of 15 teams.
2012 – on a FAILING attempt midseason at 8th place
Quote:
“I believe that this team is capable of making the playoffs”
Checks standings and schedule....
Quote:
“This is a weak draft”
I quit.
Last edited by Joseppi: 03-09-2012 at 01:13 PM.
Reason: formatting
That '08-09 team finished with 81 points, which is most likely going to be better than this year's, along with a 12th place finish (exactly where the current Leafs sit). Not to mention that Jason Blake's numbers that year were far better than Grabovski's this year, and he was just given a $5.5 million contract by Burke.
No offense, but your post sort of unintentionally uncovers part of the answer to the question at hand. That 08-09 team actually finished with a better record than this year's version of the Leafs is going to finish, but they didn't have the star power that this current version has. Is that why Leaf fans give him a pass? Is it because the current version of the Leafs, despite actually being just as bad or worse as the team he inherited, have more sexy names than the team that he inherited? Is that the answer?
I apologize for not being as short-sighted as yourself and not just looking at the standings. So according to you Grabo = Blake? So where does that put Kessel and Lupul? Or does that not fit with your slanted view so you aren't including them?
Yes its obviously the sexy names, its not has nothing to do with the improved prospect pool, completely reshaping the team, not having to throw all our prospects into the NHL but actually let them develop. But of course go back to quoting the standings and stating that Jason Blake and Matt Stajan would be top 2 players on the Leafs.
This thread has really digressed, I'll try my best at some meaningful discussion:
While a lot of fans are down on him, my impression is that the majority are satisfied or like Burke. Whether they like the changes he has made, or they believe in the future he is painting.
For many non-TML fans, myself included, it's really hard to understand. As an Oilers fan, I don't feel any loyalty to the Edmonton management team, and am critical of the decisions they have made, and their forays into the media. I'm sure many others can agree. But why the sympathy for BB?
1. He believes his draft is July 1st, every year, despite that in a cap era, it's almost impossible to get an impact player without massive overpayment from the free agency.
2. He is against long, front-loaded contracts. This caused him to not bid on the likes of Kovalchuk and others. Every successful team (Detroir, Boston, NJ) does the opposite.
3. He favors big, lumbering defensemen that were good in the clutch-and-grab era and neglects puck-moving defensemen. Hence the Komisarek, Beauchemin signings, dumping Kubina, handing Schenn an expensive 5 year contract, etc. (he's NOT worth 3.6 million per year).
4. He neglects the draft and makes poor choices at the draft. The Leafs might have the deepest prospect pool in their history, but that's not saying much. There are no impact players or surefire stars in the prospect pool, after 4 years of drafting by Burke.
5. His inability to address Leafs' weaknesses in goal.
6. Self-imposed trading freezes that don't seem to have any actual benefit and no other GM actually does - and if they do, they don't publicize it.
7. Boundless arrogance that stretches as far as trying to get members of the media fired. He is supposed to be managing a hockey team.
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