Trade Rumors and Free Agent TalkTrade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.
Fan of both franchises here. I have centre ice and watch every Tampa game (for the most part).
I agree with what you've said, but not your conclusion. Dmen will make any goalie look considerably better (like niemi in chicagos cup run when he played behind Keith, seabrook, Campbell), and in those cases a team can get by without a legit #1 goalie and still be a contender.
But when you don't have the strong d, like tampa, an elite goalie can stop gap until you build a home grown d corp (who can hopefully resign at home town discounts later on). You talk like it will be easy for us to pick up the dmen we need. We have 1/30 chance on Suter. Every team wants him. Also, EVERY team wants more really good defensemen. These guys don't grow on trees any more than legit young goalies like Schneider do.
So I say: move Connolly/and a pick for Schneider at the draft (we have the offense right now), try and pick off a good dman or two in FA, and use some picks to start fleshing out our system.
Because honestly, as painful as Tampas d has been most of the season, you cannot say to me here that we have had NHL goaltending all season.
this works i think
havent read the whole thread, but as I understand it, Schneider will very likely be moved this summer, less likely be signed for one more year, and almost certainly not sign for longer.
the Canucks' biggest need is a young, high-end RHD to repace Salo, but there may not be that many offers, and Connolly+pick is solid value.
I had proposed something around Connolly to Preds, Blum to Van, Schneider to TBL.
That could work, maybe with balancing picks.
Note that Connolly has more value than the other two in one regard -- he has 2 more years of ELC at $1.66M. The other 2 are RFA this summer (though only make $900k, so dunno how much more they would expect next contract. Schneider more than Blum, certainly ..but has proven more.)
And a WHL championship, a memorial cup championship, and being the starting goalie for the Canada U-20 gold winning team in 2008-09.
Dude has a pedigree of winning. Look at his W/L record, he has not had a losing season since entering the WHL. He's clutch which is what counts.
Tokarski undoubtedly had a great junior career, but his accomplishments since have been less than compelling. W/L record is not the most compelling stat for a goalie - particularly on championship teams. While he won gold at the 2009 WJCs he far from the best goalie in the tournament (that would be Markstrom) with a .906 SV%. To anyone who has followed the WJC tournament for the last few year, the weakness of the Canadian teams, win or lose, has been in net. As a professional, Tokarski had a great first year in Norfolk but his last 2 seasons have been decidedly ... meh.
In comparison, Schneider had an equally good amateur career, but unlike Tokarski, he has continued to shine at the AHL and NHL levels. Schneider carried good, but not great teams from Boston College and Manitoba Moose into championship games and lost. His NHL numbers are almost as good as Tokarski's best WHL numbers.
Tokarski undoubtedly had a great junior career, but his accomplishments since have been less than compelling. W/L record is not the most compelling stat for a goalie - particularly on championship teams. While he won gold at the 2009 WJCs he far from the best goalie in the tournament (that would be Markstrom) with a .906 SV%. To anyone who has followed the WJC tournament for the last few year, the weakness of the Canadian teams, win or lose, has been in net. As a professional, Tokarski had a great first year in Norfolk but his last 2 seasons have been decidedly ... meh.
In comparison, Schneider had an equally good amateur career, but unlike Tokarski, he has continued to shine at the AHL and NHL levels. Schneider carried good, but not great teams from Boston College and Manitoba Moose into championship games and lost. His NHL numbers are almost as good as Tokarski's best WHL numbers.
That comes from stat watching. Tokarski last season was a bit of a sophomore slump. This season he should be in contention for goalie of the year in the AHL.
Leads league in wins, and bear in mind the team in front of him blocks a lot of perimeter shots, meaning his stats are skewed. The two things you should look at are his GAA and his win numbers. 2.34GAA very low and 27 wins in 40GP.
To give you an idea,
Ben Bishop 41 GP 1309 shots against, average of 32 a game.
Braden Holtby 39 GP 1047 shots against, average of 27 a game.
Dustin Tokarski 40GP 959 shots against average of 24 a game.
His sv% is more a product of the system than a reflection of him as a goalie. Outside shots get blocked thanks to Cooper's excellent system (Norfolk currently on a 12 game winning streak) meaning it is only really the good quality chances that get through, so no easy saves to pad his sv%.
His sv% is more a product of the system than a reflection of him as a goalie. Outside shots get blocked thanks to Cooper's excellent system (Norfolk currently on a 12 game winning streak) meaning it is only really the good quality chances that get through, so no easy saves to pad his sv%.
I've heard a lot of ******** in my day but this takes the prize.
That comes from stat watching. Tokarski last season was a bit of a sophomore slump. This season he should be in contention for goalie of the year in the AHL.
Goalie of the year? Are you kidding me?
Reality check:
Dustin Tokarski is 11th in GAA and 18th in SV% on the first place team in the league.
Tyson Sexsmith is the 2nd in GAA and 7th in SV% on the 8th place team in the East.
Ben Bishop is 5th in GAA and 1st in SV% on the last place team in the League.
Yann Denis is 1st in GAA and tied for 3rd in SV% on the first place team in the West.
GAA and W/L ratio are team stats, not goalie stats. Save percentage is much more indicative of goal tender performance. Shot quality affects both, but there are no data for shot quality other than your subjective opinion.
W/L ratio might have something to do with the fact that Norfolk is leading the AHL in scoring by a vast margin. They have 214 goals for. The next closest team, St. Johns with 191, Wilkes-Barre has 188 and the rest of the leaders are all in the 170's.
A ton of goalies on the FA market this year: Brodeur, Huet, Nittimaki, Sanford, Mason, Leighton, Ellis, Vokuon, Hedberg, Gustavsson, Clemmenson, Auld, Biron, Harding, Conklin, Raycroft, Montoya, Turco, Nabokov...
That's a very underwhelming list. Brodeur's not likely to leave NJ. Nabokov originally signed with DET because he wanted a chance at a Cup, so the teams he might sign with is probably fairly short. Likely the same story with Vokoun. Harding might be a good starter.
I've got no problem with trading for Bernier or Schneider but not for some of what I'm seeing here. The max I'd feel comfortable giving up would be the DET first, a 2nd and a prospect like Panik. And I don't think I'd want to give up that much for Bernier.
Not to say that's a deal the Canucks would bite on...just that I wouldn't like to see the team deal off much more. I want to keep Connolly. I'd like to see him in the AHL next year to build on his game against some competition probably a little closer to where he's at physically.
Tampa also needs to continue to build their system and dealing off a high first (their own) would hurt that process, even moreso if we dealt Panik in the deal. Losing Ashton, Panik and a (likely) top 10 draft choice really hurts the depth in the pipeline.
I'm also high on Tokarski. Kid is a winner. He's playing on a team with a lot of kids on it in Norfolk and doing a stellar job.
I'd LOVE to have either goalie but I don't want to see Tampa go outside of their gameplan to do it.
I've got no problem with trading for Bernier or Schneider but not for some of what I'm seeing here. The max I'd feel comfortable giving up would be the DET first, a 2nd and a prospect like Panik. And I don't think I'd want to give up that much for Bernier.
Not to say that's a deal the Canucks would bite on...just that I wouldn't like to see the team deal off much more. I want to keep Connolly. I'd like to see him in the AHL next year to build on his game against some competition probably a little closer to where he's at physically.
Tampa also needs to continue to build their system and dealing off a high first (their own) would hurt that process, even moreso if we dealt Panik in the deal. Losing Ashton, Panik and a (likely) top 10 draft choice really hurts the depth in the pipeline.
I'm also high on Tokarski. Kid is a winner. He's playing on a team with a lot of kids on it in Norfolk and doing a stellar job.
I'd LOVE to have either goalie but I don't want to see Tampa go outside of their gameplan to do it.
To use the last sentence there, I am onboard with that as well, from the Canucks perspective of course. I, and many other Canucks fans, have no moral objection to trading Schneider, if the return fits our needs and our value of Schneider. I will be blunt in saying that the expectation to trade him, or Bernier from Los Angeles, for peanuts because we have to, is foolish (I am not trying to pick on your proposal, infact I see exactly where you are coming from and agree with your sense of whats being said here, its just your bolded sentence summed up my feelings precisely).
I am not saying your particular offer is without merit, or indeed that either team would demand a package of Hedman, Connolly and TB's first or answer with any foolish retort or hyperbolic, sarcastic offer. Simply put, a late draft pick in the first round, a second, and Panik do not suit the Canucks, and in my limited understanding of how they are performing, the Kings, needs, so if that was the offer, one if not both teams decline.
I don't think Vancouver will know it's true needs for the next year until the playoffs and home stretch to them unfolds. Likely, we could use a replacement for Salo, and pending deals and resignings, for Ballard and Raymond as well, and naturally, if Schneider is dealt, a back up goaltender. For Salo's replacement, a top 4 puck moving defenseman with a sound shot would be preferred, and if possible with some physicality or sandpaper. If it's Ballard, honesly, with some seasoning, Tanev and Gragnani look like possible internal solutions. Raymond would be replaced with either another speedy, defensively responsable player, or if the stars align, a Doan/Morrow type left winger. Someone provided a list of UFA goaltenders, the back up would either be internal or from that list, unless a good goalie at a reasonable rate was included as part of the package.
I've got no problem with trading for Bernier or Schneider but not for some of what I'm seeing here. The max I'd feel comfortable giving up would be the DET first, a 2nd and a prospect like Panik. And I don't think I'd want to give up that much for Bernier.
Not to say that's a deal the Canucks would bite on...just that I wouldn't like to see the team deal off much more. I want to keep Connolly. I'd like to see him in the AHL next year to build on his game against some competition probably a little closer to where he's at physically.
Tampa also needs to continue to build their system and dealing off a high first (their own) would hurt that process, even moreso if we dealt Panik in the deal. Losing Ashton, Panik and a (likely) top 10 draft choice really hurts the depth in the pipeline.
I'm also high on Tokarski. Kid is a winner. He's playing on a team with a lot of kids on it in Norfolk and doing a stellar job.
I'd LOVE to have either goalie but I don't want to see Tampa go outside of their gameplan to do it.
That return doesn't do anything for Vancouver, this draft is a weak one when you hitting late 1st, I would think Gillis would want a player back that is young and can help the team now or on a call up bases or a better first were he can draft one of the better players in the draft like Ceci, Reinhart, Rielly, Galchenenyuk. Right now TBL 1st is sitting at 8th overall, from TBL that's what I'd want is that pick, Schneider is a player who helps your team now, is young and will bring #1 elite level goaltending for many many years, I just can't see Gillis trading Schneider for later picks and long shot prospect, Schneider has a ton of value to us. If you want to fix your goaltending issues that most likely is the reason why TBL is where they are in the standings it's going to be a cost that hurts a bit, just like we had to trade Hodgson to bring in some size, grit and toughness, that cost hurt but we needed Kassian more than Hodgson, TBL need Schneider more than a pick that should be years away before helping, if he doesn't bust.
I understand that Canucks fan value Schneider highly (I am a Canucks fan and i'd almost rather keep him and trade Luongo) but I think it's absolutely pointless to try to convince Tampa Bay fans that they need a goaltender.
If they feel as if they have the situation covered, then you're not going to be able to get them to agree to give up valuable prospects for something they don't believe they need.
I understand that Canucks fan value Schneider highly (I am a Canucks fan and i'd almost rather keep him and trade Luongo) but I think it's absolutely pointless to try to convince Tampa Bay fans that they need a goaltender.
Wait....there's Tampa fans that think they're covered in goal? I can understand not wanting to spend a ton on goaltending, but the team's #1 flaw is clearly in net right now.
Wait....there's Tampa fans that think they're covered in goal? I can understand not wanting to spend a ton on goaltending, but the team's #1 flaw is clearly in net right now.
I can't speak for all Lightning fans but I don't know of one fan who thinks we are fine in goal. There are some that would rather sign Harding/Vokoun but I've never read a single post or talked to a Lightning fan in person who wanted to go into next season with Garon as the #1.
Lots of speculation surrounding Cory Schneider or Jonathan Bernier to TBL
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2012 1st Rd Pick
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UFA this year:
Nabokov
Vokoun
Huet
TBL 1st round pick is around 9th (Current). Malcom Subban could be available.
It would be nice to have one of Schneider of Bernier, but it seems to me that a veteran G plus a very nice prospect could do the job and TBL get to keep one of the few D prospect they have.
TBL 1st round pick is around 9th (Current). Malcom Subban could be available.
It would be nice to have one of Schneider of Bernier, but it seems to me that a veteran G plus a very nice prospect could do the job and TBL get to keep one of the few D prospect they have.
That's fair but Vokoun will be 36 years old for next season, I'm not sure SY wants to take a grumble on a older goalie past his prime. Huet? really? isn't he a Hawk? a team with goaltending issues isn't even using him. Subban is a far far far way from being a #1 goalie. Nabokov will be 37 to start the next season, isn't TBL already having it's problem with aging goalies? none of these guys are fix for your major goaltending issues these are bandaids at best for a season maybe 2 season fix.
TBL 1st round pick is around 9th (Current). Malcom Subban could be available.
It would be nice to have one of Schneider of Bernier, but it seems to me that a veteran G plus a very nice prospect could do the job and TBL get to keep one of the few D prospect they have.
UFA or Schneider are not the only option around the league to find a starter. If Vancouver ask a fortune for Schneider (like Hedman and/or 1st and/or Connolly) Other GM will jump in and say ''wait what?'' For less than that im willing to part with my proven starter!
This summer could be the one Boston is forced to trade one of Rask/Thomas.
Rask is RFA and could get a contract too expensive for the bruins to keep Thomas and him.
I wonder what could be the Asking price for a Jonathan Quick, If LA plan to have Bernier as their future starter, and since Quick is a UFA summer 2013 and could not agree to an extension with the kings it could be tempting for LA to trade Quick for the right Package instead of losing him for nothing as UFA.
Tampa fan, would you rather have Quick or Schneider? (quick is signed to a 1 800 000$ contract next year, probably less expensive than Schneider future contract.)
This summer could be the one Boston is forced to trade one of Rask/Thomas.
Rask is RFA and could get a contract too expensive for the bruins to keep Thomas and him.
My point is UFA or Schneider are not the only option around the league to find a starter goalie. If Vancouver ask a fortune for Schneider (like Hedman and/or 1st and/or Connolly) Other GM will jump in and say ''wait what?'' For less than that im willing to part with my proven starter!
So you are saying that Tbl might go after Thomas or Rask? Just curious what would you think that it takes to get either of those guys out of Boston?
So you are saying that Tbl might go after Thomas or Rask? Just curious what would you think that it takes to get either of those guys out of Boston?
How much for Quick?
What i am suggesting is its the job of a GM to look at all their options around the league.
I really think Boston will keep Rask, but Thomas could be a target.
About Quick it all depends of the unknown variable of the willingness of Quick to stay in LA beyond 2013 (UFA)
If you are LA and Quick tell you he doesn't want to extend his contract, he want to concentrate on Hockey and wait until he is UFA to see his option and sign the best contract of his career, what do you do with him if another team come with an interesting offer for him? (like one of these Schneider proposal)
What's the trade value for Rask? Higher even than Schneider. And to an EC team? It'd be through the roof.
Quick? LA wants to keep Quick over Bernier, just like BOS wants to keep Rask over Thomas. But his value would be also higher than Schneider, having proven his ability to play as a starter over 2 full seasons.
So that leaves Tim Thomas. BOS would definitely try and deal him out of conference and teams like Edmonton and San Jose make some sense as a destination. Like Rask, his price would be inflated to keep him in conference. Yet another goaltending option more costly than Schneider (and signed for more $ than Schneider could command) to say nothing of the fact that the guy is 37 this year.
Bernier or Schneider. Those are TBL's most likely targets this offseason.
What i am suggesting is its the job of a GM to look at all their options around the league.
I really think Boston will keep Rask, but Thomas could be a target.
About Quick it all depends of the unknown variable of the willingness of Quick to stay in LA beyond 2013 (UFA)
If you are LA and Quick tell you he doesn't want to extend his contract, he want to concentrate on Hockey and wait until he is UFA to see his option and sign the best contract of his career, what do you do with him if another team come with an interesting offer for him? (like one of these Schneider proposal)
If you can't ballpark trade value for these players then how can you comment on Schneiders trade value? I personally think that none of those players you suggested are available to Tbl and therefore have no effect on Schneiders trade value during this offseason.
What's the trade value for Rask? Higher even than Schneider. And to an EC team? It'd be through the roof.
Quick? LA wants to keep Quick over Bernier, just like BOS wants to keep Rask over Thomas. But his value would be also higher than Schneider, having proven his ability to play as a starter over 2 full seasons.
So that leaves Tim Thomas. BOS would definitely try and deal him out of conference and teams like Edmonton and San Jose make some sense as a destination. Like Rask, his price would be inflated to keep him in conference. Yet another goaltending option more costly than Schneider (and signed for more $ than Schneider could command) to say nothing of the fact that the guy is 37 this year.
Bernier or Schneider. Those are TBL's most likely targets this offseason.
Well, we dont know LA plan for Bernier, as i say it all depends on Quick willingness to stay in LA for the right price after 2013.
If Thomas is traded outside the conference...like SJ as you suggest, then Neimi could become a target for Tampa
Its the summer goalies musical chairs game where in the past few summers there are more goalie than seat and some goalie need to sit out (Turco 2012), go to europe (Nabokov 2010) or being low balled to a cheap contract (Vokoun 2012) or step down of your starter role to become a backup (Theodore in MIN, Biron with NYR).
What i am suggesting is its the job of a GM to look at all their options around the league.
I really think Boston will keep Rask, but Thomas could be a target.
About Quick it all depends of the unknown variable of the willingness of Quick to stay in LA beyond 2013 (UFA)
If you are LA and Quick tell you he doesn't want to extend his contract, he want to concentrate on Hockey and wait until he is UFA to see his option and sign the best contract of his career, what do you do with him if another team come with an interesting offer for him? (like one of these Schneider proposal)
I'd love to hear what some LA Kings fans would think of this, but if I'm LA, I don't think of moving Quick anywhere right now until I know for sure he won't re-sign.
LA will not know that by the draft. LA has lots of time to decide what they have to do, and that depends on Quick, who has lots of time to make a decision. LA would be downright stupid to trade him at the draft or in the offseason, if they don't know for sure that he won't return - and again, chances of that happening are basically slim to none.
Basically when Schneider (and Bernier) are on the market, Quick won't be anywhere near that market.
But ignoring the bad example of Quick, your point that GMs should look around the league and look for best value, I completely agree with you here... but try and find a team (for argument's sake, a group of fans from a team) that would deal their goalie of value for what you're suggesting Schneider's value is here.
Canucks fans (most not all) aren't asking for that high a price... yes, we want to see good value back, but it's not a price where other teams will look at and go "we'll trade our quality goalie for that package"
If you can't ballpark trade value for these players then how can you comment on Schneiders trade value? I personally think that none of those players you suggested are available to Tbl and therefore have no effect on Schneiders trade value during this offseason.
My opinion is if you put one of these Schneider proposal offer from Cannuck fans on the table (Carter + 1st, Giroux + 1st some years ago in PHI, Hedman/Connollly/1st, Colombus 1st overall, Larson, RNH).
I've heard a lot of ******** in my day but this takes the prize.
