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Old
03-09-2012, 03:26 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
If the Kings could make a couple decent passes in a row on any sort of consistent basis, they would at least seem a lot quicker.
I think a part of that is the transition game. When we get a turnover, we don't immediately head up ice like other teams do. We regroup in our zone first, then come at the opposition enmasse. The problem is, this gives the other team a chance to fall back into their own system, so when it's time to make those passes, the lanes are clogged. It's either try and carry it in, try and force a pass, or dump it in and go get it. Carry it in doesn't work when you let the other team set up first, forcing a pass is often suicide, and we don't have the speed to dump and chase.

We need to cut the forwards loose and let them head up ice the minute they realize we got the puck. We have some very good passing D-men, let them try and send out some long bombs and hit a player in stride.

Anyone remember Clifford's goal last month in Tampa Bay, where he came out of the box and got a pass that sent him in on a breakaway? That came from Willie Mitchell. Let the D push the play and activate the forwards to go as soon as we get the puck. We have a great D that doesn't need a lot of support defensively when they have the puck, utilize it.

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03-09-2012, 03:28 PM
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Actually that pass came from Scuderi.

Yes, O'Sullivan had 22 goals under Marc Crawford. I will never forget a interview where Patty said Crawford was really hard on him but that's why he had a good year.

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03-09-2012, 03:29 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0HbcmrfcnA

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03-09-2012, 03:29 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
We're talking about the Murray/Sutter hockey. I don't think most of those names are relevant. O'Sullivan was a 20 goal scorer before Terry got here though.
And he also scored 14 goals and 37 points in 62 games under Murray before he was traded. He didn't even reach those numbers elsewhere and now he's in the minors.

The point was that players don't always flourish away from LA/Murray/Sutter/DL.

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03-09-2012, 03:30 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
JU, you fail to look at things both ways. Yes, you can post Ted Purcell and Matt Moulson's totals, and they are valid players to look at. But why not post the numbers of players like Patrick O'Sullivan? .
POS played under a different Kings system. He, like all offensive minded players were immediately removed for a system that has not gotten us any further than we were 3 years ago. If anything it has set us back by not maximizing value in trade and replacing them with grinders that have no future with the Kings. By that I mean, when the system was implimented we moved a lot of good pieces for under value in order to fit an ideal.

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03-09-2012, 03:31 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Actually that pass came from Scuderi.

Yes, O'Sullivan had 22 goals under Marc Crawford. I will never forget a interview where Patty said Crawford was really hard on him but that's why he had a good year.
Crawford was/is a terrible coach. I was shocked to hear that he was in the running in Toronto.
I still think that Mactavish is our man.

As for the orignal style post. I want a team that can adjust to the tempo of each game. The can open it up when they need to and shut the doors when they need to.

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03-09-2012, 03:33 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Actually that pass came from Scuderi.

Yes, O'Sullivan had 22 goals under Marc Crawford. I will never forget a interview where Patty said Crawford was really hard on him but that's why he had a good year.
Thanks for the correction, same point though. Even our D you wouldn't think being capable of that sort of stuff has demonstrated the ability to do so.

Clifford headed up ice when he sees Scuds has the puck, Scuds takes a chance and fires one down the ice, knowing it could have been intercepted by a Lightning. That play won't work all the time, likely won't even work the majority of the time. But those sort of plays are symbolic of how you get the offense going. Activate the forwards, especially the wingers, and let the D make a big pass rather than carry it up the ice first. Stretch the other team out a bit.

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03-09-2012, 03:35 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by no name View Post
POS played under a different Kings system. He, like all offensive minded players were immediately removed for a system that has not gotten us any further than we were 3 years ago. If anything it has set us back by not maximizing value in trade and replacing them with grinders that have no future with the Kings. By that I mean, when the system was implimented we moved a lot of good pieces for under value in order to fit an ideal.
Who did we move for under value? The only undervalue deal that comes to mind off the top of my head is Penner (obviously) and the trade we did at the draft where we gave up two firsts to draft Colten Teubert.

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03-09-2012, 03:39 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Perro View Post
Crawford was/is a terrible coach. I was shocked to hear that he was in the running in Toronto.
I still think that Mactavish is our man.

As for the orignal style post. I want a team that can adjust to the tempo of each game. The can open it up when they need to and shut the doors when they need to.
I've never understood the love for MacT. He coached Edmonton for eight season. He made the finals once. The other seven seasons, they missed the playoffs five times and were knocked out in the first round twice both times in six games.

Even the year they mnade the finals, the Oilers were outside of the playoff picture at the trade deadline and only made it as a seventh seed.

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03-09-2012, 03:45 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
I've never understood the love for MacT. He coached Edmonton for eight season. He made the finals once. The other seven seasons, they missed the playoffs five times and were knocked out in the first round twice both times in six games.

Even the year they mnade the finals, the Oilers were outside of the playoff picture at the trade deadline and only made it as a seventh seed.
They had crap for talent. He made a lot of those players play their best. Made Horcoff look like he was worth 5 mil. Not sure where Stoll and Greane would be without him.
He has done good work with team canada as well.
The years they missed the playoffs I would look more at lowe than towards MacT.
I would be interested to see how he is doing this year in the AHL.

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03-09-2012, 03:53 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Perro View Post
They had crap for talent. He made a lot of those players play their best. Made Horcoff look like he was worth 5 mil. Not sure where Stoll and Greane would be without him.
He has done good work with team canada as well.
The years they missed the playoffs I would look more at lowe than towards MacT.
I would be interested to see how he is doing this year in the AHL.
32-22-2-3, 5th in the conference.

I'm sorry, I don't agree with the assertion he had no talent. From Doug Weight to Ryan Smyth to Chris Pronger, there's always been some level of talent on that team, especially after the lock out. Horcoff's play fell off while MacTavish was still there too. 53 points (17 goals) in 80 games his final year under MacT is not a 5 mill guy.

If we are going to go with the old veteran coach routine, I'd rather stick with the guy whose teams at least routinely makes the playoffs than a one hit wonder. MacT and Paul Maurice are smart hockey guys, no disrespect intended, but they have hardly done anything of significance outside of a one big playoff run (two in Maurice's case).

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03-09-2012, 03:59 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
32-22-2-3, 5th in the conference.

I'm sorry, I don't agree with the assertion he had no talent. From Doug Weight to Ryan Smyth to Chris Pronger, there's always been some level of talent on that team, especially after the lock out. Horcoff's play fell off while MacTavish was still there too. 53 points (17 goals) in 80 games his final year under MacT is not a 5 mill guy.

If we are going to go with the old veteran coach routine, I'd rather stick with the guy whose teams at least routinely makes the playoffs than a one hit wonder. MacT and Paul Maurice are smart hockey guys, no disrespect intended, but they have hardly done anything of significance outside of a one big playoff run (two in Maurice's case).
Are you talking about Sutter. Other than the run with Calgary he is usually a firts round and out guy as well. I was just syaing at the time of TM being fire I would have rather seen Mac given the shot. There is no doubt in my mind that he got the most out of his line up in Edmonton, and I would have loved to see what he could have done here.
Now that we have sutter I am holding judgement till after next year when he gets a chance to fully make this his team.

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03-09-2012, 04:10 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Perro View Post
Are you talking about Sutter. Other than the run with Calgary he is usually a firts round and out guy as well. I was just syaing at the time of TM being fire I would have rather seen Mac given the shot. There is no doubt in my mind that he got the most out of his line up in Edmonton, and I would have loved to see what he could have done here.
Now that we have sutter I am holding judgement till after next year when he gets a chance to fully make this his team.
Sutter's coached 10 full NHL seasons, never missing the playoffs. He's made the second round four times, twice reaching the third round. The only time he missed the playoffs as a coach was when he joined the Flames for the last half of the 2002-2003 season, so he didn't even coach the full season. Compare that with MacT and it's almost night and day.

MacT's highest winning percentage in a season is .579. Sutter's beat that three times and tied it once. Under Sutter, we are 16-10-8, which is a winning percentage of .588

We can disagree, and that's fine, and I do respect your opinion, I just don't share it and I feel if we had hired MacT, we'd have the same complaints only worse, as, based on past performances, MacT's record as our coach would be worse than Sutter's.

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03-09-2012, 04:14 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perro View Post
Crawford was/is a terrible coach. I was shocked to hear that he was in the running in Toronto.
I still think that Mactavish is our man.

As for the orignal style post. I want a team that can adjust to the tempo of each game. The can open it up when they need to and shut the doors when they need to.

Ya know it's funny you mention that because I REALLY would love to see him coaching us some time in the near future. He isn't the easiest guy in terms of developing players but I think he has a style (that he himself played with) that would fit our team. It's physical but it's smart.

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03-09-2012, 04:14 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Sutter's coached 10 full NHL seasons, never missing the playoffs. He's made the second round four times, twice reaching the third round. The only time he missed the playoffs as a coach was when he joined the Flames for the last half of the 2002-2003 season, so he didn't even coach the full season. Compare that with MacT and it's almost night and day.

MacT's highest winning percentage in a season is .579. Sutter's beat that three times and tied it once. Under Sutter, we are 16-10-8, which is a winning percentage of .588

We can disagree, and that's fine, and I do respect your opinion, I just don't share it and I feel if we had hired MacT, we'd have the same complaints only worse, as, based on past performances, MacT's record as our coach would be worse than Sutter's.
I guess the reason I wanted MacT was also cause I thought it would have been more of a shake up as he is less defensive minded then Sutter or TM.
I actually like Sutter (I am one of what feels like a few people in Calgary that do), but just thought I bigger change was needed.
Based on the numbers you have presented you are correct it is no contest. How do Sutter's career numbers stack up compared to TM's?

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03-09-2012, 04:23 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Perro View Post
I guess the reason I wanted MacT was also cause I thought it would have been more of a shake up as he is less defensive minded then Sutter or TM.
I actually like Sutter (I am one of what feels like a few people in Calgary that do), but just thought I bigger change was needed.
Based on the numbers you have presented you are correct it is no contest. How do Sutter's career numbers stack up compared to TM's?
I also agree with your sentiment that we needed more of a shake up than Sutter, as he and Murray are very similar. I wanted to see us push for a guy like Hynes or Eakins from the AHL, or Boughner. The timing of the coaching change, mid-season, likely impacted that though. Outside of Muller, very few guys moved from one organization to another mid-season. I had hoped we'd jump on Boudreau as well, but he was gone by the time we canned TM.

As for Sutter versus TM, TM was a head coach for 11 full seasons, making the playoffs nine times. Four times he made the second round, twice reaching the third round. Once he made the finals, so VERY similar to Sutter as well in that regard. Perhaps the biggest difference is the last five seasons TM has coached, he's missed the playoffs twice and three times was bounced in the first round. The last five full seasons as a coach, Sutter has made the playoffs every year, three times getting to the second round, including the 2004 Stanley Cup finals.

Overall, very similar levels of success, which isn't to suprising since it's widely accepted here that DS is just a louder, at times grumpier version of TM.

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03-09-2012, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
I also agree with your sentiment that we needed more of a shake up than Sutter, as he and Murray are very similar. I wanted to see us push for a guy like Hynes or Eakins from the AHL, or Boughner. The timing of the coaching change, mid-season, likely impacted that though. Outside of Muller, very few guys moved from one organization to another mid-season. I had hoped we'd jump on Boudreau as well, but he was gone by the time we canned TM.

As for Sutter versus TM, TM was a head coach for 11 full seasons, making the playoffs nine times. Four times he made the second round, twice reaching the third round. Once he made the finals, so VERY similar to Sutter as well in that regard. Perhaps the biggest difference is the last five seasons TM has coached, he's missed the playoffs twice and three times was bounced in the first round. The last five full seasons as a coach, Sutter has made the playoffs every year, three times getting to the second round, including the 2004 Stanley Cup finals.

Overall, very similar levels of success, which isn't to suprising since it's widely accepted here that DS is just a louder, at times grumpier version of TM.
ESPN had an article this week on GM's wanting compensation back for loosing coaches and executives to other teams. The League use to compensate fo a pick (I believe the last one was the kings had to give Philly a 2nd for hiring Murray). The article said that if this was brought back more teams would be willing to let their AHL talent move to other teams.

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03-09-2012, 04:44 PM
  #43
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MacT would be sweet just to be able to say, MacT.

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03-09-2012, 05:01 PM
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Matt Barry pulled the same quote today that annoyed me.

"When I came here they changed the way I played and I didn't really want to do that. It took me a while to learn. Since I've been traded, they let me play the way I want to play." - Jack Johnson

Pretty much sums up the past 6 years.

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03-09-2012, 05:02 PM
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http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Matth...hise/125/42917

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03-09-2012, 05:20 PM
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Ya know it's funny you mention that because I REALLY would love to see him coaching us some time in the near future. He isn't the easiest guy in terms of developing players but I think he has a style (that he himself played with) that would fit our team. It's physical but it's smart.
He understand how important defense is but also that you cannot win without offense

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03-09-2012, 05:21 PM
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Sums up a lot of frustration.

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03-09-2012, 05:33 PM
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Who did we move for under value? The only undervalue deal that comes to mind off the top of my head is Penner (obviously) and the trade we did at the draft where we gave up two firsts to draft Colten Teubert.
Right at the beginning of the change we traded Visnovski for Stoll and Greene. Both of which were considered ideal for the change. they also traded Cammy to move up a few slots to draft teubert, who also was overvalued due to the system. Traded Purcell for trash. Gave away Moulson.

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03-09-2012, 05:37 PM
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Matt Barry pulled the same quote today that annoyed me.

"When I came here they changed the way I played and I didn't really want to do that. It took me a while to learn. Since I've been traded, they let me play the way I want to play." - Jack Johnson

Pretty much sums up the past 6 years.
So if it's all about the system and the coaching....how come a guy like Ken Hitchcock couldn't get but one trip to the playoffs in 4 years with Columbus, but he manages to bring St. Louis to the brink of a Presidents Trophy in less than one season? Maybe it also has to do with personel and how those players perform?

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03-09-2012, 05:47 PM
  #50
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Carter helps, but if you look at the likes of Boston, Pittsburgh, etc. they have a great tempo. They play at a high speed. Even Detroit does, because they let their faster guys move the puck, stretching the defense and creating a faster flow for the slower players. We do not do that. We are around average to slightly below average in sheer foot speed, and we play a breakout style that basically brings us to a standstill before we even turn to bring the puck up ice. Our transition game can be timed with a sundial.
To me, this is the biggest concern. With great puck movers, why do we cycle back and pull a roller hockey breakout? Why not (at least occasionally) try to turn the other teams turnovers right back up ice? We've improved our quickness and talent since last year; we need to take advantage of that for a change of pace or, at the very least, to keep the other teams honest. It's gotta be really easy to set up your D vs. the Kings when you know all 5 guys are going to pull back for a readable breakout.

I really liked Sutter's aggressive forecheck, and to take full advantage of that, we need to press on turnovers more frequently. People moan and ***** about trap hockey, but teams like Boston and St. Lou pressure and pressure HARD on the forecheck and immediately turn mistakes into opportunities. They don't wait. That waiting is the biggest problem I have with the current system.

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