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Old
11-13-2003, 03:55 AM
  #1
Der Schweinehund
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Just about a month...

Friday, October 10th, 2003:

"We're a better lineup than what I penciled in in the summer...That tells me we're ahead of where we thought we would be."
- Craig Patrick

Wow. How bad then was the summertime penciled-in roster?

I haven't seen an ounce of productivity or creativity from the coaching staff. That 2-hour video session obviously was successful. A well-motivated team would RALLY after being embarrassed. Instead, they got virtually embarrassed again. I am only seeing consistent hard work from 5 players - Fleury, Koltsov, Malone, Orpik, and Fata. Of course it is worth noting that four of the five are rookies. I see bright spots from many others, but many rough patches too.

There has been no consistency amongst lines or D-pairings - no wonder there are so many missed drop-passes, so much blown coverage, and numerous odd-man rushes against. The only constant we have seen is Martin Straka on the PP point - and that hasn't exactly been a bright spot for us now has it?

I can live with rookie mistakes. I can live with being less talented. I can live with having to take the cheap way out. This is exactly where you need a motivator who can institute a system, keep consistent lines and give players partners they can get to trust and know. I haven't had the greatest amount of faith in Mr. Olcyzk from the get go, noting that true teachers like Marc Habscheid, Peter DeBoer, and Brent Petersen would have been far better options to come in for their first NHL head coaching jobs. Clearly, the conveyed coaching message isn't clear, doesn't exist, or is just plain wrong. It can't take much longer for this to become apparent - if it hasn't already.

And despite the success of Patrick and the fact he has had his hands tied moreso than any other manager, he seems to have some trouble with coaches as of late - given that two of the last three are failures, with the third one getting pretty darn close. That not to mention either that each time we just tinker with coaches - have we ever replaced more than two of the four coaches at a time??

There - done with my venting...for now.

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11-13-2003, 06:40 AM
  #2
kutdacheez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Schweinehund
Friday, October 10th, 2003:
"We're a better lineup than what I penciled in in the summer...That tells me we're ahead of where we thought we would be."
- Craig Patrick

Wow. How bad then was the summertime penciled-in roster?
Well, that sure is a good question . . . but we all agreed that going thru the transition that there would be many bumps in the road? These are them bumps . . . put on your seat belts!

Quote:
I haven't seen an ounce of productivity or creativity from the coaching staff. That 2-hour video session obviously was successful. A well-motivated team would RALLY after being embarrassed. Instead, they got virtually embarrassed again. I am only seeing consistent hard work from 5 players - Fleury, Koltsov, Malone, Orpik, and Fata. Of course it is worth noting that four of the five are rookies. I see bright spots from many others, but many rough patches too.
IMHO it's way too early to overly criticize Eddie Olczyk's performance as a coach. Although I would have never had some of these players that are on the roster -on my roster - Olczyk has said that he is giving the players an opportunity and it may be their last one. I think the guy needs more time before bringing out the guillotine . . . which we all have said has come out much too often in Penguin history. It's human nature to have a few drinks at the Long Branch Saloon, start shooting the breeze and then all of a sudden you look up and there are a couple of guys with a rope.
Now, if I was in the Long Branch Saloon, with a few drinks and we were talking about a necktie party for some of the overkill of mentors in this group . . . let's go!
As to the performance led by the prospects there are by my count that I would rather have up here: Kosptopoulos, Beech, Surovy, Murley, Koci and Lupaschuk.

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There has been no consistency amongst lines or D-pairings - no wonder there are so many missed drop-passes, so much blown coverage, and numerous odd-man rushes against. The only constant we have seen is Martin Straka on the PP point - and that hasn't exactly been a bright spot for us now has it?
No argument from me. The move of McKenna indicates that they might be planning something (maybe a trade) before they make any moves. Who really knows what goes on that doesn't make the news?
As to Marty Straka . . . as time goes on I think many other Penguin fans see why he should have been traded, earlier. The longer we wait, the dumber this gets BTW.

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I can live with rookie mistakes. I can live with being less talented. I can live with having to take the cheap way out. This is exactly where you need a motivator who can institute a system, keep consistent lines and give players partners they can get to trust and know. I haven't had the greatest amount of faith in Mr. Olcyzk from the get go, noting that true teachers like Marc Habscheid, Peter DeBoer, and Brent Petersen would have been far better options to come in for their first NHL head coaching jobs. Clearly, the conveyed coaching message isn't clear, doesn't exist, or is just plain wrong. It can't take much longer for this to become apparent - if it hasn't already.
I don't agree that it is SO CLEAR, I guess.

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And despite the success of Patrick and the fact he has had his hands tied moreso than any other manager, he seems to have some trouble with coaches as of late - given that two of the last three are failures, with the third one getting pretty darn close. That not to mention either that each time we just tinker with coaches - have we ever replaced more than two of the four coaches at a time??
There - done with my venting...for now.
GOOD.

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Old
11-14-2003, 03:50 AM
  #3
Der Schweinehund
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Quote:
IMHO it's way too early to overly criticize Eddie Olczyk's performance as a coach. Although I would have never had some of these players that are on the roster -on my roster - Olczyk has said that he is giving the players an opportunity and it may be their last one. I think the guy needs more time before bringing out the guillotine . . . which we all have said has come out much too often in Penguin history.
Here we will disagree - big surprise. My issue is that Edzo hasn't brought what he said he would. Where is that hustle? Where is that system? Where is that aggressive forecheck? They aren't executing in any form. There is certainly a case to be made that non-execution is a player thing, not a coach thing.

However, I counter that with the fact his 'system' and techniques, particularly around line composition/juggling are not conducive to building a system. Let these guys play together for two, three, four games in a row and then build on it.

I am not advocating the guillotine at this point, rather the fact that any leeway we may have be giving him must be lifted. He does deserve two or three months more at least, but there needs to be demonstrable increases in the overall cohesion, responsiveness and hustle of this team. There is no excuse for a team to play as flat as they do. They don't have to win - just make some bloody effort (especially after you have been embarrassed).

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Old
11-14-2003, 09:57 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariano

Let's get this straight once and for all. LACK OF MONEY IS NOT WHY THE PENS STINK. The Pens have not taken the "cheap way ouy" despite the spin that they are trying to put on things.

The payroll is $30 million, including the extra $5 that Mario just added to bring him up to $10 million. This is not a huge amount, but it cetainly is enough in the right hands to have a team contending for a playoff spot.

The Pens stink because half the payroll goes to 2 players, Mario and Straka, leaving only $15 million for the other 20. This is why the Pens stink.
ok, so the lack of money that has caused us to lose Francis, kasperitis, Kovalev Lang Boughner among others because WE COULD NOT AFFORD THEM has nothing to do with a lack of money. right...

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Old
11-14-2003, 09:59 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariano

Let's get this straight once and for all. LACK OF MONEY IS NOT WHY THE PENS STINK. The Pens have not taken the "cheap way ouy" despite the spin that they are trying to put on things.

The payroll is $30 million, including the extra $5 that Mario just added to bring him up to $10 million. This is not a huge amount, but it cetainly is enough in the right hands to have a team contending for a playoff spot.

The Pens stink because half the payroll goes to 2 players, Mario and Straka, leaving only $15 million for the other 20. This is why the Pens stink.
btw, i'm sick of you always coming on here an making derrogatory, unfounded/supported comments meant to rile up the board. this is your official warning. do it again, you're gone, for good.

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11-14-2003, 10:02 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider Zero
btw, i'm sick of you always coming on here an making derrogatory, unfounded/supported comments meant to rile up the board. this is your official warning. do it again, you're gone, for good.


He's allowed to state an opinion. I don't see anything he said (this time) as being out of line.

I agree with him, to an extent. With a 30 million dollar payroll, there could be a much better product on the ice. Much better. If it wasn't for some bad hockey decisions, this could be a more competitive team.

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Old
11-14-2003, 10:08 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koltsov71


He's allowed to state an opinion. I don't see anything he said (this time) as being out of line.

I agree with him, to an extent. With a 30 million dollar payroll, there could be a much better product on the ice. Much better. If it wasn't for some bad hockey decisions, this could be a more competitive team.
its for all the otehr times in the past he's done it too.he's been banned for it once, im just letting him know i wont hesitate to ban him if he does it again.

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Old
11-14-2003, 10:13 AM
  #8
Plan 9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider Zero
its for all the otehr times in the past he's done it too.he's been banned for it once, im just letting him know i wont hesitate to ban him if he does it again.
No doubt. But what you said seemed better suited to a PM, in my opinion.

Just saying that I didn't see anything wrong with his post.

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11-14-2003, 11:01 AM
  #9
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Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
If Mario wasn't on this team, the payroll wouldn't be $30 million.
I understand that. I may have not worded my response properly regarding the payroll. Focus more on the "bad hockey decisions" comment.

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Old
11-14-2003, 01:26 PM
  #10
kutdacheez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Schweinehund
Here we will disagree - big surprise. My issue is that Edzo hasn't brought what he said he would. Where is that hustle? Where is that system? Where is that aggressive forecheck? They aren't executing in any form. There is certainly a case to be made that non-execution is a player thing, not a coach thing.

However, I counter that with the fact his 'system' and techniques, particularly around line composition/juggling are not conducive to building a system. Let these guys play together for two, three, four games in a row and then build on it.
And I was just going to say that maybe after the 9 - 0 pasting there should be more line juggling. Or a least a significant benching.

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I am not advocating the guillotine at this point, rather the fact that any leeway we may have be giving him must be lifted. He does deserve two or three months more at least, but there needs to be demonstrable increases in the overall cohesion, responsiveness and hustle of this team. There is no excuse for a team to play as flat as they do. They don't have to win - just make some bloody effort (especially after you have been embarrassed).
With that I agree wholeheartedly. And the guillotine was a little over kill by me. What amazes me the most about Edzo . . . is that he gives Abid, Bradley and Holtzinger playing time over what was sent down and who is benched. These three plus Buchberger and McKenna haven't done a thing to merit playing time over any other player in the system yet they play game after game. And have on the top three lines.
I asked everyone who claim that Bradley is a good player to come forward and explain how they deduced that . . . so far no one that claim he was has stepped up to the plate. Same goes for Abid. If he doesn't turn it up then his sitting out out Colorado drafted him and holding out this year is a sham. I think it might be known (in the future) as a Laukkanen.

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11-14-2003, 07:03 PM
  #11
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It's kinda funny how nobody on this board can get it through their heads that this is a team that is hurting badly for revenue. Which means that they can't spend money on free agents, or keep their own players. Lets just face it the Penguins are going to have to build their team in time and if they get a new arena that will help more than anything, but until then there is not a whole lot they can do besides develop prospects. Which happens to strike me as kinda funny because last year the big complaint was that CP has done a horrible job drafting and developing prospects. The last time I checked Koltsov, Malone, Orpik, and Fluery were all doing damn good this year.

 
Old
11-14-2003, 09:15 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarface
We didn't complain about CP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarface
Yeah, i want a new Gm, but everyone still likes CP here so i won't even further that thought.
http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?threadid=27572

Seems to me you're still doing your alotted share of CP-bashing.

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Old
11-15-2003, 02:26 AM
  #13
kutdacheez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider Zero
btw, i'm sick of you always coming on here an making derrogatory, unfounded/supported comments meant to rile up the board. this is your official warning. do it again, you're gone, for good.
Why would you do that?
As a board monitor, my suggestion is that you remain more neutral. We all know what Moron-o is doing and are quite capable of handling that ourselves. Save your power for when you really need it.
Usually, if the poster is from Pittsburgh it ends up being some frustrated Stiller fan or someone that Mario snubbed for an autograph. Or, maybe Mario made a move on his girlfriend back in the 80's.
But, to throw out continous threats (just because you have a club) IMHO isn't how to handle it either.

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11-15-2003, 02:29 AM
  #14
kutdacheez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koltsov71


He's allowed to state an opinion. I don't see anything he said (this time) as being out of line.

I agree with him, to an extent. With a 30 million dollar payroll, there could be a much better product on the ice. Much better. If it wasn't for some bad hockey decisions, this could be a more competitive team.
With a $30 million payroll we would be slotted higher than Atlanta and would be 26th in the league instead of 27th.

Big Whip.

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Old
11-15-2003, 02:31 AM
  #15
kutdacheez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider Zero
its for all the otehr times in the past he's done it too.he's been banned for it once, im just letting him know i wont hesitate to ban him if he does it again.
Are you related to the Soup Nazi?

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Old
11-15-2003, 02:38 AM
  #16
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Originally Posted by Scarface
I talked to Buffaloed about Mariano before and he was banned, don't make me go and show him your stupidity again Mariano, seriously, grow a brain man, we are pens fans we don't want ur negativity here.
So, let me try to net that out:
You ask for information, but are interested mostly in what confirms your opinions. Is that it?

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11-15-2003, 03:43 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by Scarface
The one big problem i had with CP is that he was too generous with his contracts in the early 90's...which helped us get to this bankruptcy state we are in right now. No clue if he could have avoided it, but he could have been a lil bit more reasonable with what he was giving out.
The moves made in the 90's are what brought in two Stanley Cups. Now, since that IS the ultimate objective the more fitting response just might have been . . . "super job, Craig Patrick." All the eyes of the hockey world were on the Penguins, who by no choice of their own became the first defending champions to have to deal with the new FA era. Maybe you don't remember the Penguins being written-off by the hockey world as an all-score, no-hit group that couldn't play defense for a hoot. When Patrick made trades to bring in Murphy, Roberts and Taglianetti . . . and maybe you don't remember when the Penguins went 0 - 4 - 1 on a road trip and were blitzed for 28 goals. Patrick traded his BEST offensive players Cullen and Zalapski (along with Parker) for Francis, Samuelsson and Jennings. After that trade the Penguins went 25 - 11 - 2. He also brought in Trottier and Mullen. Maybe you don't remember, going into the next season we didn't know if Francis would sign with the Penguins, or not. Patrick WAS a factor and while some of us (including me) criticize some of his moves, non-moves and his non-communication characteristic . . . anyone really associated with the team then knows this guy (1) isn't afraid to make a move, and (2) has proved over the long haul to know what is needed to win. That's why he's in the Hall of Fame.
Since (in your own words, not mine) you claim that you have "no clue" maybe you could explain why is it you get this urge to post a "no clue" opinion.
Did you ever hear of the saying: A shoemaker should not judge above his shoes.

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Anyhow, i never said i liked Cp as a GM, i've disliked 60% of the stuff he has done in the past 3 seasons.
It doesn't require a great deal of strength to do things but it does require great strength to decide on what to do. IMO Craig Patrick's biggest mistake was not making trades a few years earlier with Jagr, Francis, Kasparaitis, Lang, Kovalev, and Boughner and hiring his brother (Glenn Patrick) not because I know anything about his brother's coaching ability or lack of coaching ability . . . just that CP set himself up for criticism because of it.
To make decision mistakes at the rate of 60% would make anyone a failure. Wouldn't that 60% also apply to anyone that posts? For example, if a poster is considered (by their peers) to be "all wet" with 60% of their posts.

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Old
11-15-2003, 04:07 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider Zero
its for all the otehr times in the past he's done it too.he's been banned for it once, im just letting him know i wont hesitate to ban him if he does it again.
Actually, I found that after he was banned his posts haven't been that bad.

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