Ulf Samuelsson and Niklas Kronwall were/are both great defensemen in their own ways, but there's no real comparison between how they play. I'd be pleased if Kronwall's career turns out as well as Samuelsson's did.
Kronwall should not be compared to Ulf.... Ulf was a *******. And to be fair most of the time Ulf did not have a choice to fight because he played the majority of his career pre-instigator.
I understand that, as a Bruin fan, you are not biggest Ulf lover, but the fact is that he fought plenty of time even after instigator rule. He wasn't gutlesss by any means (dirty-yes, but no gutless).
But, I may be biased too, as I am big fan of agitators of all form tough. i hope Marchand will develop in this departament.
I understand that, as a Bruin fan, you are not biggest Ulf lover, but the fact is that he fought plenty of time even after instigator rule. He wasn't gutlesss by any means (dirty-yes, but no gutless).
But, I may be biased too, as I am big fan of agitators of all form tough. i hope Marchand will develop in this departament.
I know he did fight but I guess I cant get over all the times he refused to fight Neely.... Ulf is in a catagory all his own in my opinion.
As everyone here already knows I have a serious problem with Kronwall refusing to fight after some of these big hits. But at the same time to lump him in with Claude, Cooke and Ulf is rediculous and unfair in my opinion.
It's gutless to repeatedly skate up and hit guys in the head and then refuse to fight afterwards...especially even more so when Kronwall leaves his feet.
At some point, posters should stop using fallacies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition) and explain why (1) the perils of vigilante justice don't effect the NHL, (2) bare-knuckled fighting is acceptable when it causes serious brain injuries, (3) those capable of throwing hard body checks must also be capable at fighting, (4) hockey is the only physical sport that seems to require regular bare-knuckled fights.
At some point, posters should stop using fallacies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition) and explain why (1) the perils of vigilante justice don't effect the NHL, (2) bare-knuckled fighting is acceptable when it causes serious brain injuries, (3) those capable of throwing hard body checks must also be capable at fighting, (4) hockey is the only physical sport that seems to require regular bare-knuckled fights.
Haha, they have now begun to possibly link CONCUSSIONS and serious brain injury (CTE). Not fighting to serious brain injury. Now I do understand that fighting may lead to concussions but not nearly at the rate of the type of hits that Kronwall routinly dishes out.
If people do not like the NHL and it's "bare-knuckled fighting" I suggest you watch other sports.
It's gutless to repeatedly skate up and hit guys in the head and then refuse to fight afterwards...especially even more so when Kronwall leaves his feet.
He came to learn the North American style of play not to learn to fight. But in doing so he did fight because that's part of the North American style of play. You can try and twist my words all you want......
I didnt twist any words, but look at what you said, he came here to learn the North American style of hockey. Would you agree that by your own admission, we can make the assumption that the way they teach hockey in Sweden could be to play physical and fighting could be frowned upon? If you do agree with that assumption, you would have to concede that he is playing the game by the rules, and the way he was taught. no?
I didnt twist any words, but look at what you said, he came here to learn the North American style of hockey. Would you agree that by your own admission, we can make the assumption that the way they teach hockey in Sweden could be to play physical and fighting could be frowned upon? If you do agree with that assumption, you would have to concede that he is playing the game by the rules, and the way he was taught. no?
Yup, that makes sense. But this is not Sweden and Kronwall has been in the league for 7 or 8 years I believe. So he has had time to adapt. I think by now he understands that the vast majority of physical players in this league fight every now and then when necessary.
As far as Landeskog goes I believe he fought twice with in his first month in the OHL so it did not take him long to break away from what he grew up with and was taught.
Yup, that makes sense. But this is not Sweden and Kronwall has been in the league for 7 or 8 years I believe. So he has had time to adapt. I think by now he understands that the vast majority of physical players in this league fight every now and then when necessary.
As far as Landeskog goes I believe he fought twice with in his first month in the OHL so it did not take him long to break away from what he grew up with and was taught.
I agree on both points, I dont know as much about Landeskog, so I generalize my asuumptions of his change by what I have seen. I have spoken with another Euro player( a Finn) and he is the same way as kronner. They are taught a more disciplined style in which fighting is frowned upon. I dont see why, if a player is used to playing a certain way, and it benefits him and his team, he should change that style, in this case(I know players change styles to suit teams and new team play styles). As far as this not being Sweden, you are right, but this is also not Finnland, Denmark or one of the former Soviet Republics, but as these players and the styles they are taught and play are integrated into the sport in North America, it only makes sense that their styles will slowly be accepted and I think thats whats going on. He is playing a style that North Americans are not used to and its foriegn to us, but to call him a coward is wrong, because he plays within the rules and how he has played since he was a child. Lots of fans thought Gretzky(NOT CALLING OR COMPARING KRONWALL TO GRETZ SO CHILL!!!!) was somehow cheating or playing somehow outside the rules when he first began his era, so with the evolution of the game, its odd to see a style like his.
I agree on both points, I dont know as much about Landeskog, so I generalize my asuumptions of his change by what I have seen. I have spoken with another Euro player( a Finn) and he is the same way as kronner. They are taught a more disciplined style in which fighting is frowned upon. I dont see why, if a player is used to playing a certain way, and it benefits him and his team, he should change that style, in this case(I know players change styles to suit teams and new team play styles). As far as this not being Sweden, you are right, but this is also not Finnland, Denmark or one of the former Soviet Republics, but as these players and the styles they are taught and play are integrated into the sport in North America, it only makes sense that their styles will slowly be accepted and I think thats whats going on. He is playing a style that North Americans are not used to and its foriegn to us, but to call him a coward is wrong, because he plays within the rules and how he has played since he was a child. Lots of fans thought Gretzky(NOT CALLING OR COMPARING KRONWALL TO GRETZ SO CHILL!!!!) was somehow cheating or playing somehow outside the rules when he first began his era, so with the evolution of the game, its odd to see a style like his.
I agree on both points, I dont know as much about Landeskog, so I generalize my asuumptions of his change by what I have seen. I have spoken with another Euro player( a Finn) and he is the same way as kronner. They are taught a more disciplined style in which fighting is frowned upon. I dont see why, if a player is used to playing a certain way, and it benefits him and his team, he should change that style, in this case(I know players change styles to suit teams and new team play styles). As far as this not being Sweden, you are right, but this is also not Finnland, Denmark or one of the former Soviet Republics, but as these players and the styles they are taught and play are integrated into the sport in North America, it only makes sense that their styles will slowly be accepted and I think thats whats going on. He is playing a style that North Americans are not used to and its foriegn to us, but to call him a coward is wrong, because he plays within the rules and how he has played since he was a child. Lots of fans thought Gretzky(NOT CALLING OR COMPARING KRONWALL TO GRETZ SO CHILL!!!!) was somehow cheating or playing somehow outside the rules when he first began his era, so with the evolution of the game, its odd to see a style like his.
I agree, but that still doesn’t change my stance on physical play. I understand why Kronwall does not fight and I believe you understand why I wish he would. It's just two different ways of looking at the sport. As far as the European style being accepted into the NHL... I sure hope not... And I think as long as the league is dominated by North Americans numbers wise and played in North America then it won’t. Europeans have been playing in the NHL for 30+ years and have made MAJOR contributions to the league but as long as fighting is a part of North American hockey this will be up for debate.
Either way ultimately your right, coward is a strong word and more than likely should not be used in regards to anyone playing in the NHL. I was wrong for using it.
I agree, but that still doesn’t change my stance on physical play. I understand why Kronwall does not fight and I believe you understand why I wish he would. It's just two different ways of looking at the sport. As far as the European style being accepted into the NHL... I sure hope not... And I think as long as the league is dominated by North Americans numbers wise and played in North America then it won’t. Europeans have been playing in the NHL for 30+ years and have made MAJOR contributions to the league but as long as fighting is a part of North American hockey this will be up for debate.
Either way ultimately your right, coward is a strong word and more than likely should not be used in regards to anyone playing in the NHL. I was wrong for using it.
I respect your stance and your opinion and thanks for a great debate. I very much enjoyed it and am glad as fans of a great sport, we could have a civil conversation about it.
At some point, posters should stop using fallacies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition) and explain why (1) the perils of vigilante justice don't effect the NHL, (2) bare-knuckled fighting is acceptable when it causes serious brain injuries, (3) those capable of throwing hard body checks must also be capable at fighting, (4) hockey is the only physical sport that seems to require regular bare-knuckled fights.
Hockey is the only physical sport that equips each player with a weapon that can be used as a spear, club or sword, and then attaches sharp blades to each foot. Bare-knuckled fights are a pretty safe way to let off steam, compared to the alternatives. Early hockey was marred by ugly stick-swinging incidents that posed a lot more danger than fisticuffs. I'm not a big fighting fan, especially when professional goons are involved, but that has been the NHL's reasoning.
It's gutless to repeatedly skate up and hit guys in the head and then refuse to fight afterwards...especially even more so when Kronwall leaves his feet.
He has improved in that area and don't leave his feet. And he don't put his elbows up, thats why he don't gets any suspension, they are clean.
was somehow cheating or playing somehow outside the rules when he first began his era, so with the evolution of the game, its odd to see a style like his.
