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Herb Carnegie

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Old
03-10-2012, 03:21 PM
  #1
Aurel Joliat
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Herb Carnegie

RIP Mr. Carnegie

Hockey lost a pioneer and a great man

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=389966

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Old
03-10-2012, 05:12 PM
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sawchuk1971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
RIP Mr. Carnegie

Hockey lost a pioneer and a great man

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=389966
too bad there are only two people replied here...

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03-10-2012, 05:26 PM
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Hardyvan123
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too bad there are only two people replied here...
Ya it is a little sad but unfortunately there seems to be very little information on him.

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03-10-2012, 05:39 PM
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Rob
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Weren't there a couple of more Black players later on who played for the Quebec Aces?

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03-10-2012, 05:46 PM
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JSmith81x
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Some info on him. Kind of hard to find, since he retired in the 50s.

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03-10-2012, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawchuk1971 View Post
too bad there are only two people replied here...
sorry, I don't get on HF much during the weekend. Family is away, so I can check the board.

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03-10-2012, 06:47 PM
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Weren't there a couple of more Black players later on who played for the Quebec Aces?
Don't think so. Are you thinking of Herb's brother Ossie and Manny McIntyre, who played with him in Sherbrooke prior to Herb going to the Aces?

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Ya it is a little sad but unfortunately there seems to be very little information on him.
Unfortunately, a lot of it seems to be exaggeration. Some of it stems from confusion over the Quebec Provincial and Senior Leagues. Carnegie was the MVP of the Provincial League, the second-best senior league in Quebec, for the last three years it operated before merging into the QSHL, the top league. When that happened, Sherbrooke beefed up its roster with better players and he became a second-liner. He later moved on to Quebec and played behind a young Beliveau. Combine that with some remarks from Beliveau about learning from Carnegie, and it gets conflated into Carnegie playing MVP-level hockey as a Beliveau contemporary. But his dominant years were actually several years earlier at a lower level.

Further, in his first year in the QSHL, one of the other teams in the league was the badly outmatched New York Rovers, who had a very young team and finished with 10 wins in 60 games. But watching his local team get crushed by Carnegie and Sherbrooke was a 16-year-old New Yorker named Stan Fischler. Fischler, of course, went on to be a prominent writer, and authored articles about Carnegie that, to put it kindly, recalled his ability through very rose-coloured glasses.

Objectively, looking at how well he peformed relative to his teammates, it seems like he would've been a borderline NHL'er. The guys who were around his age and had similar (and in some cases, much better) production didn't make the NHL, either. There's a pretty good comparable to Carnegie: a guy named Rosario Joanette, another centre who was the same age and was the QPHL MVP the season before Carnegie's three-year run. He moved up to the QSHL sooner, and had very similar numbers for several years, but never played in the NHL except for two games as a wartime replacement at the start of his career.

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03-10-2012, 09:30 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lard_Lad View Post
Don't think so. Are you thinking of Herb's brother Ossie and Manny McIntyre, who played with him in Sherbrooke prior to Herb going to the Aces?



Unfortunately, a lot of it seems to be exaggeration. Some of it stems from confusion over the Quebec Provincial and Senior Leagues. Carnegie was the MVP of the Provincial League, the second-best senior league in Quebec, for the last three years it operated before merging into the QSHL, the top league. When that happened, Sherbrooke beefed up its roster with better players and he became a second-liner. He later moved on to Quebec and played behind a young Beliveau. Combine that with some remarks from Beliveau about learning from Carnegie, and it gets conflated into Carnegie playing MVP-level hockey as a Beliveau contemporary. But his dominant years were actually several years earlier at a lower level.

Further, in his first year in the QSHL, one of the other teams in the league was the badly outmatched New York Rovers, who had a very young team and finished with 10 wins in 60 games. But watching his local team get crushed by Carnegie and Sherbrooke was a 16-year-old New Yorker named Stan Fischler. Fischler, of course, went on to be a prominent writer, and authored articles about Carnegie that, to put it kindly, recalled his ability through very rose-coloured glasses.

Objectively, looking at how well he peformed relative to his teammates, it seems like he would've been a borderline NHL'er. The guys who were around his age and had similar (and in some cases, much better) production didn't make the NHL, either. There's a pretty good comparable to Carnegie: a guy named Rosario Joanette, another centre who was the same age and was the QPHL MVP the season before Carnegie's three-year run. He moved up to the QSHL sooner, and had very similar numbers for several years, but never played in the NHL except for two games as a wartime replacement at the start of his career.
I got the same feeling reading up on him.

He sounds like a class guy but it's very doubtfull on how good of an NHLer he would have made.

The greatest hockey legends website is a great resource but it's always a cheerleading type of writeup of any player they profile as well.

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Old
03-10-2012, 10:12 PM
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Iain Fyffe
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I got the same feeling reading up on him.

He sounds like a class guy but it's very doubtfull on how good of an NHLer he would have made.
Agreed. He was outscored by a lot of players you've never heard of.

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03-11-2012, 03:32 AM
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I received a Future Aces award from him when I was a kid. Great guy, gave a very good speech to us about working hard...looking back two decades after that speech, not many of my classmates took that advice.

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03-11-2012, 11:57 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lard_Lad View Post
Don't think so. Are you thinking of Herb's brother Ossie and Manny McIntyre, who played with him in Sherbrooke prior to Herb going to the Aces?



Unfortunately, a lot of it seems to be exaggeration. Some of it stems from confusion over the Quebec Provincial and Senior Leagues. Carnegie was the MVP of the Provincial League, the second-best senior league in Quebec, for the last three years it operated before merging into the QSHL, the top league. When that happened, Sherbrooke beefed up its roster with better players and he became a second-liner. He later moved on to Quebec and played behind a young Beliveau. Combine that with some remarks from Beliveau about learning from Carnegie, and it gets conflated into Carnegie playing MVP-level hockey as a Beliveau contemporary. But his dominant years were actually several years earlier at a lower level.

Further, in his first year in the QSHL, one of the other teams in the league was the badly outmatched New York Rovers, who had a very young team and finished with 10 wins in 60 games. But watching his local team get crushed by Carnegie and Sherbrooke was a 16-year-old New Yorker named Stan Fischler. Fischler, of course, went on to be a prominent writer, and authored articles about Carnegie that, to put it kindly, recalled his ability through very rose-coloured glasses.

Objectively, looking at how well he peformed relative to his teammates, it seems like he would've been a borderline NHL'er. The guys who were around his age and had similar (and in some cases, much better) production didn't make the NHL, either. There's a pretty good comparable to Carnegie: a guy named Rosario Joanette, another centre who was the same age and was the QPHL MVP the season before Carnegie's three-year run. He moved up to the QSHL sooner, and had very similar numbers for several years, but never played in the NHL except for two games as a wartime replacement at the start of his career.
Spoke with Elmer Lach about Kitoute Joannette some years ago. Seems that when he was brought up to the Habs the players on the team gave him a rough time of it. Practices were a lot more intense then and he was seen as a threat to the centremen already on the team. Think it was Murph Chamberlain who put the undersized newcomer through the wringer. Joanette was a huge star with Valleyfield in the QSHL and was very happy to stay and play there after his big league tryout. Think ghe was past 40 when he finallyhung them up although nobody really knew just how old he was.

Have had the pleasure of meeting and chatting with Mr. Carnegie on a number of occasions. If there are any finer people out there, there ain't a lot of them. Have also spoken to many players who played with and against him in the Q. Most said that he could have made a go of it in the NHL. Seems he played a style not unlike Buddy O'Connor - clean, smooth and dangerous offensively.

Willie O'Ree once told me that Herb Carnegie should have been the first black player in the NHL, not him. Red Storey said that the Coloured Line could have made any team, any time, anywhere and that there are men in the Hall of Fame who are not worthy of carrying Carnegie's skates.

As role models from the hockey world go, Jean Beliveau and Herb Carnegie are way out in front of any others you might care to name. Have never heard anyone make a negative statement about either man.

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