So if the Lightning were going to offer more for Schneider...why wouldn't Vancouver trade him to Tampa instead of the team that's offering less?
Because if they follow my proposed strategy, the Lighting would make no offer to Vancouver. So Vancouver accept the best offer avaible to them on the market (assuming there is one) before Schneider head to RFA.
Its a similar strategy as when Boston didn't make an offer to Montreal for Hackett despite being the most interested team in the league for Hackett. They probably got Hackett for cheaper than if they negotiated directly with Montreal. And SJ was Happy to make a plus value out of it.
Yes there is some risk to this strategy. But in some scenario it worth a try.
Some Savard quote after the Hackett trade...
Quote:
Bruins never proposed us such an exchange
Quote:
I admit that the Bruins are better today with Jeff Hackett, said Savard. But we had the choice to make this transaction with the Sharks or to keep Hackett in Montreal. But the probability of losing him without obtaining anything in return was very strong. "
Well, the first plan is to wait and hope Schneider become eligible to offer sheet.
If another team acquire him, then Tampa Bay bring their offer.
Since we assume Tampa Bay wanted Schneider more than any other team, their offer could convince the team to trade back Schneider and look at their other option for a goalie (we will be one week from free agency and months away from the start of the season, plenty options around!).
If you are Colombus and pay X value for Schneider and you get the opportunity to trade back Schneider for X+ you get a plus value for it and it cost you nothing. It could be tempting if the offer is right.
If it doesnt work at all, then its not the end of the world. Why not try?
Schneider will not be able to be poached via offer sheets because Vancouver is expected to elect their arbitration rights on him shielding him from offer sheets. At that point they would trade his rights to the highest bidder guaranteeing the team that acquires him to have an extended time to work on a contract or just agree to the arbiter's ruling.
If Columbus trades for Schneider there is no way they would move him to anyone offering more than what they lost unless a proven goalie or stud comes back, something Tampa does not possess.
And the reason you don't try it is because you can get somewhat similar for much cheaper and easier means.
Schneider will not be able to be poached via offer sheets because Vancouver is expected to elect their arbitration rights on him shielding him from offer sheets. At that point they would trade his rights to the highest bidder guaranteeing the team that acquires him to have an extended time to work on a contract or just agree to the arbiter's ruling.
If Columbus trades for Schneider there is no way they would move him to anyone offering more than what they lost unless a proven goalie or stud comes back, something Tampa does not possess.
And the reason you don't try it is because you can get somewhat similar for much cheaper and easier means.
Please, arbitration cant protect Schneider from offer sheet, it have been discussed and verified 100 times on this forum, Schneider is in similar position than Halak in Montreal and not comparable to Weber. i can give you the link to these discussion if you are interested.
The only way to protect Schneider from offer sheet is to have him under contract.
Out of principal, I wouldn't offer sheet schneider. But vancouver isn't going to give him more than two or three mil. Could easily use that as leverage. On the other hand, I would look elsewhere, and focus on the defense first. We have lost a lot of secondary scoring too, but that isn't hard to replace. I am definitely not sold on tic, but depending on how he does I would be more inclined to go into next season with garon/tic and an improved defense. Way too confusing to try and decipher right now.
Because if they follow my proposed strategy, the Lighting would make no offer to Vancouver. So Vancouver accept the best offer avaible to them on the market before Schneider head to RFA.
Its a similar strategy as when Boston didn't make an offer to Montreal for Hackett despite being the most interested team in the league for Hackett. They probably got Hackett for cheaper than if they negotiated directly with Montreal. And SJ was Happy to make a plus value out of it.
Yes there is some risk to this strategy. But in some scenario it worth a try.
Some Savard quote after the Hackett trade...
It's a different situation though. Montreal and Boston are rivals and in the same division so it's doubtful those two teams would make a trade with each other especially one that would help Boston fill a need. It made sense for Boston to wait for him to go to another team because it increased their chances to acquire Hackett. Vancouver and Tampa are never going to be in the same conference or division so there's nothing to suggest Vancouver wouldn't deal Schneider here or demand a higher price compared to other teams. Waiting for Schneider to get dealt to a team that needs him to be their starter like Columbus doesn't make sense, the Lightning would probably have to give up more since Columbus would need him more than Vancouver does.
It's a different situation though. Montreal and Boston are rivals and in the same division so it's doubtful those two teams would make a trade with each other especially one that would help Boston fill a need. It made sense for Boston to wait for him to go to another team because it increased their chances to acquire Hackett. Vancouver and Tampa are never going to be in the same conference or division so there's nothing to suggest Vancouver wouldn't deal Schneider here or demand a higher price compared to other teams. Waiting for Schneider to get dealt to a team that needs him to be their starter like Columbus doesn't make sense, the Lightning would probably have to give up more since Columbus would need him more than Vancouver does.
Agree its slightly different situation, but the same strategy can apply.
But we need to assume Tampa want Schneider more than any other team in the league for it. If the team acquiring Schneider want him more than Tampa, then Tampa would never have been able to get Schneider anyway.
So in your Colombus Scenario, if Vancouver offer more to Colombus than what Colombus could be willing to part of to acquire Schneider, they should logically trade him.
If you need an house, pay 150 000$ for one of your liking, but you would never be willing to pay 200 000$ for it. If someone come to you the same day and offer you 200 000$. you are likely to accept and find other option for an house. Especially if you are not in an hurry (summer) and you are one week away from a house sales (UFA)
If you buy a new house 150 000$ and someone come to you and offer you 200 000$ for it would it make sense to you to think about dealing your new house again?
Would be bad management by the person that offered 200.000$ in the first place, since it could have been acquired for less, in this case Tampa.
Would be bad management by the person that offered 200.000$ in the first place, since it could have been acquired for less, in this case Tampa.
Not necessary
The reason why the first buyer got it at 150 000$ in the first place is because there was no other Bidder to compete with. If Tampa offer 160 000$ the other could offer 190 000$ then Tampa offer 200 000$.
Vancouver could manipulate it in a bidding war. But if a Team like Tampa Bay is out of the bidding. Vancouver could be left with the choice to take the best bid avaible to them or take the risk to lose Schneider to an offersheet.
In the end, what matter is the gap between the Best offer Tampa is willing to give and the second best offer another team is willing to give.
Boston didnt look like bad management because they pay more for Hackett than what SJ paid for him.
The pro of my strategy:
- Improve the (slim?) chances Schneider head to RFA status (vs. no chance if Tampa trade for him.)
- Avoid a bidding war.
- Another team could be a better trading partner. Vancouver want help now for the cup. Another team could be more willing to get pick.
- If it fail, Schneider could still be avaible as UFA in the followings years
- Tampa Bay dont reinforce a team who could be a potential Stanley Cup opponent.
The con:
- Tampa lose the opportunity to be the first team able to negotiate a long term contract with Schneider.
- Less guarantee to get Schneider and it could totally fail. But one week away from UFA shopping, its not the end of the world.
If Tampa offered close to what Columbus may offer, Canucks may be more tempted to ship Schneider out of the conference rather than have to play against him also....than again, it's Columbus, not a top tier team in the conference.
If Vancouver elects for arbitration with Schneider he is unable to sign an offer sheet, therefore he's protected from them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom
Please, arbitration cant protect Schneider from offer sheet, it have been discussed and verified 100 times on this forum, Schneider is in similar position than Halak in Montreal and not comparable to Weber. i can give you the link to these discussion if you are interested.
The only way to protect Schneider from offer sheet is to have him under contract.
I did, but I also deferred to the CBA. It's why Weber and Parise couldn't be poached off of offer sheets last summer.
Schneider is not in the same RFA category than Webber and Parise. You cant compare them. You can compare Schneider to Halak, while Halak was heading to RFA, Montreal could not protect Halak from offer sheet by sending him to arbitration.
This has been verified many many time since last summer, by different people on this board. Schneider cant be protected from offer sheet unless he is under contract.
Short Version:
Quote:
Because Schneider makes under $1.5 million, the team can't elect for arbitration until the deadline for player elected arbitration passes which is on July 5th at 5:00 pm. So there's a 5 day window in there where Schneider cannot be protected from an offer sheet.
Long version:
Quote:
CBA Article 10.2(a)(B)
(B) Notwithstanding the foregoing, if a Group 2 Player requests
salary arbitration, or a Club requests salary arbitration, pursuant to Article
12, such Player will not be eligible to negotiate with any Club other than
his Prior Club or sign an Offer Sheet pursuant to this Article 10, except as
provided in Section 12.10.
Quote:
CBA Article 12.2
12.2 Notice of Player Election of Salary Arbitration.
A Player (or a Player's Certified Agent, acting on the Player's behalf),
electing salary arbitration must do so by making a written request, in accordance with
Exhibit 3 hereto, utilizing the form attached hereto as Exhibit 23, by facsimile to Central
Registry, the NHLPA and the Player's Club by not later than 5:00 p.m. New York time on
July 5 in the League Year in which such Player is eligible for salary arbitration.
Quote:
CBA Article 12.3
12.3 Eligibility for Club-Elected Salary Arbitration. Subject to subsections (c) and
(d) below and the eligibility requirements set forth in Article 12.1, a Club will have the
right to elect to take a Player to salary arbitration under the following conditions:
(a) Club-Elected Salary Arbitration For Players With Paragraph 1 NHL
Salaries plus Signing, Roster, and Reporting Bonuses Greater Than $1,500,000 In The
Prior League Year.
(i) If a Player who is otherwise eligible to receive a Qualifying Offer
and become a Group 2 Restricted Free Agent had a Paragraph 1
NHL Salary plus Signing, Roster and Reporting Bonuses in excess
of $1,500,000 in the aggregate in the final League Year of his most
recent SPC, a Club may elect to file for salary arbitration to
determine the Player's Paragraph 1 Salary for the upcoming
League Year in lieu of making a Qualifying Offer to such Player.
(ii) In any salary arbitration that takes place pursuant to this Section
12.3(a), the Salary Arbitrator may not award the Player a
Paragraph 1 Salary that is less than eighty-five (85) percent of the
aggregate sum of Player's Paragraph 1 Salary plus Signing,
Reporting and Roster Bonuses in the final League Year of his most
recent SPC.
(b) Club-Elected Salary Arbitration For Players Who Receive Qualifying
Offers.
(i) If a Group 2 Restricted Free Agent has not accepted his Club's
Qualifying Offer, nor filed a request for Player-elected salary
arbitration in accordance with Section 12.2 above, the Club may
elect to file for salary arbitration to determine that Player's
Paragraph 1 Salary for that League Year.
(ii) If a Club elects salary arbitration in accordance with this
subsection, the Club's offer in salary arbitration must be equal to or
higher than the Player's aggregate Paragraph 1 Salary plus Signing,
Reporting and Roster Bonuses in the final League Year of the
Player's SPC.
Quote:
Schneider ($900K salary in '11-'12) would not be eligible for Team Elected arbitration in Lieu of a QO (under 12.3(a)).
Instead, the 'Nucks will have to tender a QO, and then cannot file for team-elected arbitration (under 12.3(b)) until after the deadline for player elected arbitration (July 5).
This leaves a 5 day window where he can sign an Offer Sheet.
As much as I would like to have Schneider we are better off waiting a year till he's a UFA. Garon was playing great till he got hurt so go with him as the #1 and get a UFA to be #2. We let Smith walk and he's had a great season in PHX so we shouldn't move on so fast. I'd like us to use our 1st this year in a package to get a top 4 D or LW. I don't think ANA would do it but I'd offer them our 1st, Philly 2nd, MAB and a prospect like Panik for Bobby Ryan and Cam Fowler. Gives us a top line LW plus a top 4 PMD and both are young with good contracts.
As much as I would like to have Schneider we are better off waiting a year till he's a UFA. Garon was playing great till he got hurt so go with him as the #1 and get a UFA to be #2. We let Smith walk and he's had a great season in PHX so we shouldn't move on so fast. I'd like us to use our 1st this year in a package to get a top 4 D or LW. I don't think ANA would do it but I'd offer them our 1st, Philly 2nd, MAB and a prospect like Panik for Bobby Ryan and Cam Fowler. Gives us a top line LW plus a top 4 PMD and both are young with good contracts.
If you offered that for Ryan and Fowler, you would get laughed at.
So what do you think we need to offer for the 2? Their production has slipped this season so I was thinking we could buy a little low. Our first is a potential top 4 D pairing, the 2 can become anything, MAB fills Fowlers void short term for ANA and Panik is a potential top 6 if he can become more consistant. I'm not sure what else ANA may want that's not an overpayment from us. How bout we change Sbisa for Fowler would that work?
As much as I would like to have Schneider we are better off waiting a year till he's a UFA. Garon was playing great till he got hurt so go with him as the #1 and get a UFA to be #2. We let Smith walk and he's had a great season in PHX so we shouldn't move on so fast. I'd like us to use our 1st this year in a package to get a top 4 D or LW. I don't think ANA would do it but I'd offer them our 1st, Philly 2nd, MAB and a prospect like Panik for Bobby Ryan and Cam Fowler. Gives us a top line LW plus a top 4 PMD and both are young with good contracts.
Garon did well, but he definitely proved that he isn't a #1. It's not a slam, he's just not suited to that many games. He's a backup, a good one, but still a backup. And I don't think you can say that they just let Smith walk away. He was offered a contract, he took the better money, starting situation and better team in Phoenix. I'm happy for him, but he wasn't ever going to have those kinds of numbers playing behind our D.
Canucks fan here. I can't see our GM (Mike Gillis) making a trade which involves Connelly. We simply don't need a player like him... which is why we gave up Hodgson.
We also don't need draft picks in return. Vancouver's window is right now... not 3-5 years from now.
Gillis will be looking for a good defenseman, or a strong but talented winger to play on one of our top two lines. Think along the lines Malone or a player like him.
Unless the return was amazing, I also don't see us giving up Hansen. He's an ideal prototypical 3rd line winger for us.
I think many on the Canucks website are overestimating the return we could get for Schneider, but many are UNDERestimating his potential return in this thread. Schneider brings intangibles to the game that few who do not see him regularly notice. He's super calm under pressure, and always a classy and devoted player. He also has many years to improve his game - and you can expect him to be in the top 5 goalies in the NHL for many years to come, imo. Finally, he isn't going to be due for a raise up to his playing level for this contract round. Expect him to sign for somewhere around 3-3.5 million, which would be an amazing value for a player of his caliber.
I don't think other GMs are blind to what Schneider brings to the table - and I think the return could be very healthy indeed. I'm just not sure Tampa (as much as you guys need a good goalie) is an ideal trading partner.
Canucks fan here. I can't see our GM (Mike Gillis) making a trade which involves Connelly. We simply don't need a player like him... which is why we gave up Hodgson.
We also don't need draft picks in return. Vancouver's window is right now... not 3-5 years from now.
Gillis will be looking for a good defenseman, or a strong but talented winger to play on one of our top two lines. Think along the lines Malone or a player like him.
Unless the return was amazing, I also don't see us giving up Hansen. He's an ideal prototypical 3rd line winger for us.
I think many on the Canucks website are overestimating the return we could get for Schneider, but many are UNDERestimating his potential return in this thread. Schneider brings intangibles to the game that few who do not see him regularly notice. He's super calm under pressure, and always a classy and devoted player. He also has many years to improve his game - and you can expect him to be in the top 5 goalies in the NHL for many years to come, imo. Finally, he isn't going to be due for a raise up to his playing level for this contract round. Expect him to sign for somewhere around 3-3.5 million, which would be an amazing value for a player of his caliber.
I don't think other GMs are blind to what Schneider brings to the table - and I think the return could be very healthy indeed. I'm just not sure Tampa (as much as you guys need a good goalie) is an ideal trading partner.
Unless you're willing to give up Hedman.
The problem with acquiring a player like Schneider is you don't know how good he will be. Yes he can be top-5 in the league or he could fall off the face of the earth like Mike Smith. Even Steve Mason put up gaudy numbers only to disappoint for the past few seasons.
I'd offer up Connolly and the DET first for Schneider. The Lightning need him.
Lightning fans are some of the absolute worst in being too attached to their players. Connolly is more than expendable with the talent Yzerman has built up. Brown, Johnson, Panik, Conacher, Killorn. All guys that are probably knocking on the door.
I do know one thing. I don't want another band aid. I don't want another aging goalie. I don't want another project. I don't want another budget signing. I want a fix. And I'm not sold on Bernier. Schneider is ready. And he's good. If the Lightning don't get him, shame on them.
