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The Official 2012 Draft Thread: Part IV | "Operation Dumba Drop"

View Poll Results: Which defenseman do you like most?
Ryan Murray 119 56.40%
Jacob Trouba 8 3.79%
Matt Dumba 45 21.33%
Griffin Reinhart 28 13.27%
Cody Ceci 1 0.47%
Morgan Rielly 10 4.74%
Voters: 211. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-11-2012, 04:14 PM
  #951
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Originally Posted by HopefulCoach View Post
Yikes. Im kinda glad some of you arent drafting for the Oilers.

Dumba is great offensively but a lost soul in his own end. All flash and dazzle but no substance. The only time he looked good was when he was in front of the net being physical with someone. Thats also his downfall though. He is way to aggressive in his own end, especially on the PK. He got levelled a couple times to trying to carry the puck out of his own end and turning the puck over as a result of it

Oil Kings first goal and 6th goals are great examples of his lack of understanding of his own zone. on the first one the Oil Kings are on a 4 on 2. Instead of playing it safe and angling the puck carrier wide and trying to take away a passing lane, he goes for the big hit, misses, and takes out the backchecker, giving the Oil Kings a 4 on 1. On the sixth one he is last man and close enough to get a stick on Pelss but instead lets one of the best shots in the league walk in and have a free shot. Not exactly what I would want my dman to be doing when you are only down one goal with about 5 minutes left.

Meanwhile, Reinhart plays a less flashy game but is much more effective in his own zone. His style of game is like Lidstrom. just get the puck through to the net in the o-zone and calm, cool, collected in the dzone. He wont be as good as Lidstrom but his style is similar. He does have weaknesses though. His skating is on the weaker side, especially his turns and transitions.

Everyone likes Dumba because he has a nice shot and lays a big hit every once and awhile but if they both keep trending the way they do I will say that Dumba will put up more points but Reinhart will be a much more complete all around player.
So he makes two mistakes in a game where his team gives up seven goals and he is on the ice for half the game, and he is a lost soul defensively?

He is supposed to leave his responsibilities in front of the net to wander out and cover Pelss?

We dont need another Smid.

We need someone to generate offense from the back end.

Right now, he is the best alternative to do that besides Rielly, who hasnt played all year.


Last edited by Spawn: 03-12-2012 at 01:54 AM.
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03-11-2012, 04:50 PM
  #952
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my thoughts exactly... all the dmen have holes in their games from i have read and seen, and the one who apparently doesn't have any real holes (murray) appears to have a lower ceiling

grigorenko all the way with the 2nd pick for me
I'm kind of in that camp too although i like Murray more than a lot of HFOil seems to but i feel that the 3 top Russians, yes 3 including Galchenyuk have higher potential than the defensemen although Dumba has a really high ceiling but i question how well his skills translate to the next level, don't bite my head off IATL JMO.

My hope is that Galchenyuk plays great in the playoffs, shows that he's completely recovered from the injury and bursts onto Stu's radar at #2. I haven't seen the kid play much but everything that i've read, heard and seen through my research indicates that he's the perfect fit for our team.
Grigorenko has immense talent and would love to pick him at 2 but i'm not sure if he's the best fit for our team.


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03-11-2012, 04:56 PM
  #953
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Was at the game last night, and have my own thoughts on Dumba.

Excellent skater, with a superb offensive flair. Makes difficult passes look easy and finds the open man more often than not. Wasn't as physical as I've heard he can be, but it's only one game. Got caught a couple times taking chances, which he probably shouldn't have, and paid for it, but the kid is a riverboat gambler. He's very raw, IMO, but has talent you can't teach. Keep in mind that Red Deer is not a very good team, and a guy like that will feel he needs to take more chances than necessary to help his team win. He has a high ceiling, but it will take some grooming before he's ready to step into the big time.

Now, I can't speak to the two Russians as I've never seen them other than some highlite packages and a bit in the WJ's, so I really don't have a mark to compare him with. But we have holes to fill, so I'm comfortable taking either the centre Grigorenko or Dumba. If we somehow get a shot at Yakupov though, I think we're nuts not to take him.

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03-11-2012, 06:40 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
I'm kind of in that camp too although i like Murray more than a lot of HFOil seems to but i feel that the 3 top Russians, yes 3 including Galchenyuk have higher potential than the defensemen although Dumba has a really high ceiling but i question how well his skills translate to the next level, don't bite my head off IATL JMO.

My hope is that Galchenyuk plays great in the playoffs, shows that he's completely recovered from the injury and bursts onto Stu's radar at #2. I haven't seen the kid play much but everything that i've read, heard and seen through my research indicates that he's the perfect fit for our team.
Grigorenko has immense talent and would love to pick him at 2 but i'm not sure if he's the best fit for our team.
I think I'm going to that side too. Slowly but surely.

Galchenyuk is an immense talent, and if he has a good playoffs (and hopefully isn't on Yakupov's line), I'd be ok picking him at 3.

Ideally I think if he's picked, he gets sent down to develop in the OHL one more year. He's just such a good all around high end C that if he has a good showing in the playoffs, I'm not sure we could justify passing him.

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03-11-2012, 07:04 PM
  #955
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Originally Posted by Stoneman89 View Post
Was at the game last night, and have my own thoughts on Dumba.

Excellent skater, with a superb offensive flair. Makes difficult passes look easy and finds the open man more often than not. Wasn't as physical as I've heard he can be, but it's only one game. Got caught a couple times taking chances, which he probably shouldn't have, and paid for it, but the kid is a riverboat gambler. He's very raw, IMO, but has talent you can't teach. Keep in mind that Red Deer is not a very good team, and a guy like that will feel he needs to take more chances than necessary to help his team win. He has a high ceiling, but it will take some grooming before he's ready to step into the big time.

Now, I can't speak to the two Russians as I've never seen them other than some highlite packages and a bit in the WJ's, so I really don't have a mark to compare him with. But we have holes to fill, so I'm comfortable taking either the centre Grigorenko or Dumba. If we somehow get a shot at Yakupov though, I think we're nuts not to take him.
Dumba may be very raw, but I feel he's the only one who has the shot of having a Doughty/Pietrangelo developmental trajectory.

We don't have the luxury of waiting on Murray to blossom 8 years from today. That is the issue when you have a player who doesn't possess any elite qualities. Dumba is already an elite offensive defenseman with unquestioned heart and consistent physical play, shoring up defensively is the only thing he needs to do in order to ensure that he is a stud No.1 defenseman.

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03-11-2012, 07:29 PM
  #956
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id still to this date take ryan murray over any other dman.

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03-11-2012, 07:38 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by South Indian Stunna View Post
Dumba may be very raw, but I feel he's the only one who has the shot of having a Doughty/Pietrangelo developmental trajectory.

We don't have the luxury of waiting on Murray to blossom 8 years from today. That is the issue when you have a player who doesn't possess any elite qualities. Dumba is already an elite offensive defenseman with unquestioned heart and consistent physical play, shoring up defensively is the only thing he needs to do in order to ensure that he is a stud No.1 defenseman.
?


I don't see how those two are similar at all. Did you mean good?


Petro and Murray are good comparables to me.



Also, Murray is the one that you will have to wait for the least...worry about waiting a long time with the rest of them.

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03-11-2012, 08:04 PM
  #958
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Hitmen win 5-2. Dumba played close to 25 minutes and all situations pp and pk. Third game in three night for Rebels but they put in a feisty effort as their season winds down.

Dumba's game was not as electric as past visits. One point off his low hard point shot. Overall smart pinches on the o blue line, more conservative today but again 3 rd game over weekend. Defensive zone play was pretty average. Played a positional game vs. physical in front of their tender. Let their goalie see shots instead of blocking. Fronted players as opposed to engaging and tended to wander somewhat after forwards. Reality check is that this is a young defense and Dumba and year older Petrovic play huge minutes. Dumba frequently double shifted and played both left and right point depending upon d partner and situation.

Watch out Dub. The Hitmen first overall pick Jake Virtanen has arrived. This 15 year old was second star potting a wicked top shelf goal. Wonderful finishing ability, size, skating and showed no fear. The kid engaged physically and went at it verbally with several veteran Rebels including Inglis. Virtanen played second unit power play minutes and will get some valuable games and playoff experience.

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03-11-2012, 08:20 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by Koto View Post
?


I don't see how those two are similar at all. Did you mean good?


Petro and Murray are good comparables to me.



Also, Murray is the one that you will have to wait for the least...worry about waiting a long time with the rest of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by South Indian Stunna View Post
Dumba may be very raw, but I feel he's the only one who has the shot of having a Doughty/Pietrangelo developmental trajectory.

We don't have the luxury of waiting on Murray to blossom 8 years from today. That is the issue when you have a player who doesn't possess any elite qualities. Dumba is already an elite offensive defenseman with unquestioned heart and consistent physical play, shoring up defensively is the only thing he needs to do in order to ensure that he is a stud No.1 defenseman.

I gotta agree that none of the defensemen should take 8 years to develop and slip into the lineup... I mean sure it's possible that any player will have their best years when they are 26+ years old but most are at least going to be decent long before that or be total busts. We don't (usually) have to wait 8 years to find out.

I'm not sure if any of the top dmen... Murray/Dumba/Rielly/Trouba/Reinhart/Ceci will actually be ready to step into the NHL next year but you'd have to think Murray who's considered to be one of the more mature and stable dmen in the draft would have the best chance at cracking the roster.

Honestly though we can't be thinking "which dman makes the roster the quickest"... that's a sure way to burn a prospect when they should be developing them more slowly. Dougie Hamilton is likely a better dman prospect than any of those available this year and he's still ripening in Junior... wise move by the Bruins. Of course the Oilers are nowhere as deep on D as the Bruins but even so, the Oil need to go slow with whomever they pick and not rush them into the lineup as a savior for their sad sack D.

I'm still completely up in the air when it comes to the top dmen (all the Russian forwards are top of the list for me)... but I was leaning just ever so slightly towards Rielly earlier in the year IF they choose a dman. I just thought a dominant offensive dman would be what the doctor ordered which the Oilers don't really have within their system currently. They seem to have some good all-around dmen in the prospect cupboard but none that are really top offensive dynamos. Marincin or Blain or even Gernat or Klefbom might yet develop into that offensive top dman but that remains to be seen.

Right now though, without seeing more of Rielly, I can't say I favour him any more than the other top dmen. Again, whichever dman is the BPA in Stu's eyes will be the one I agree with. Will they go safe or take a gamble? Smart money is on the safe pick... especially if they pick top 2/3 and spend it on a dman, as I think they don't want a prospect with a reasonably high potential to bust with a top 2 or 3 pick.

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03-11-2012, 09:45 PM
  #960
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Screw the centre vs. d-man debate, find a way to repeat last year and get both!

If the scouts are right and the draft is a little weaker depth-wise, and teams are trading 1st round picks for freakin Paul Gaustad, we may be able to find a way to get it done.

We have been drafting skill at centre and quite a bit of size on D, so wouldn't mind them doing the opposite this year.

Galchenyuk/Grigorenko and then find a way to get a guy like Rielly if he slips a bit, but if not take a pick in the latter half and take Pouliot.

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03-11-2012, 10:37 PM
  #961
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Screw the centre vs. d-man debate, find a way to repeat last year and get both!

If the scouts are right and the draft is a little weaker depth-wise, and teams are trading 1st round picks for freakin Paul Gaustad, we may be able to find a way to get it done.

We have been drafting skill at centre and quite a bit of size on D, so wouldn't mind them doing the opposite this year.

Galchenyuk/Grigorenko and then find a way to get a guy like Rielly if he slips a bit, but if not take a pick in the latter half and take Pouliot.
I agree, another 1st is always a good thing... even in a weakish draft like this one there should be some decent prospects falling (especially among the dmen as there are so many highly rated this year.

I agree... picking a forward with that top 3 pick that the Oilers will very likely have... and then getting a mid/late 1st round pick and snatching up a decent dman (or my personal choice of Vasilevski) would be a very solid 1st round imo.

How do they get another 1st rounder though? Gagner? Most likely the only possibility and that's if they pick up Grigorenko/Galchenyuk with their 1st pick. Otherwise I don't think they have much else that would warrant a 1st round pick (well not anything another team would want and that the Oilers would agree to give up anyway).

I doubt Rielly slips out of the top 10 but maybe Finn or Pouliot or even Maatta or Koekkoek would still be there in the middle to later part of the 1st and would be solid dmen pickups.

Truthfully though, with 2013 looking like a very good draft as well, getting an extra 1st rounder for 2013 would be my preference.

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03-11-2012, 11:18 PM
  #962
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So he makes two mistakes in a game where his team gives up seven goals and he is on the ice for half the game, and he is a lost soul defensively?

He is supposed to leave his responsibilities in front of the net to wander out and cover Pelss?

We dont need another Smid.

We need someone to generate offense from the back end.

Right now, he is the best alternative to do that besides Rielly, who hasnt played all year.
How convenient of you to misread. I said they were great examples of his horrible defense not his only mistakes. Half the game is kind of misleading too when almost 10 minutes of it is on the Power play, where he put up two of his three points.

Responsibility in front of the net? no body else on the Oil Kings entering the zone, a couple backcheckers coming back hard and you want him to let Pelss just walk in on the next untouched? ok.

Smid has not offensive upside. Reinhart does. Why do you bring Smid into this conversation at all?

Last time I checked it was not our offense that was an issue, it was our defense and goaltending, but hey! lets through a 4th forward out there instead of getting someone that could help Smid and Schultz handle their own end.

Sorry but I will take Murray or Reinhart well before Dumba


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03-11-2012, 11:35 PM
  #963
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I say trade that pick for Bernier plus LAs 1st (if they still have it of course)

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03-11-2012, 11:39 PM
  #964
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I say trade that pick for Bernier plus LAs 1st (if they still have it of course)
Sorry but that trade is brutal.

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03-11-2012, 11:39 PM
  #965
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I say trade that pick for Bernier plus LAs 1st (if they still have it of course)
**** that! I'd give up our 2nd for Bernier max. Keep the pick and take either Grigorenko, Yakupov, Galenychuk, Murray, Rielly, Reinhart or Dumba. Theres a good chance all of them will have better careers then Bernier.

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03-12-2012, 12:02 AM
  #966
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I agree, another 1st is always a good thing... even in a weakish draft like this one there should be some decent prospects falling (especially among the dmen as there are so many highly rated this year.

I agree... picking a forward with that top 3 pick that the Oilers will very likely have... and then getting a mid/late 1st round pick and snatching up a decent dman (or my personal choice of Vasilevski) would be a very solid 1st round imo.

How do they get another 1st rounder though? Gagner? Most likely the only possibility and that's if they pick up Grigorenko/Galchenyuk with their 1st pick. Otherwise I don't think they have much else that would warrant a 1st round pick (well not anything another team would want and that the Oilers would agree to give up anyway).

I doubt Rielly slips out of the top 10 but maybe Finn or Pouliot or even Maatta or Koekkoek would still be there in the middle to later part of the 1st and would be solid dmen pickups.

Truthfully though, with 2013 looking like a very good draft as well, getting an extra 1st rounder for 2013 would be my preference.
The only other option that could be possible is trading a lesser body or prospect + 32/33 and getting a pick in the 10-15 range that way.

If the draft does lack depth, there may not be players like Pitlick on the board still on day 2.

That being said, teams may not want to trade down for fear they may get a guy one or two levels below their pick in the middle of the 1st round, unless we compensate them with a decent prospect or someone like omark.

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03-12-2012, 12:15 AM
  #967
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**** that! I'd give up our 2nd for Bernier max. Keep the pick and take either Grigorenko, Yakupov, Galenychuk, Murray, Rielly, Reinhart or Dumba. Theres a good chance all of them will have better careers then Bernier.
I agree, no way we trade our 1st for Bernier. We could've had Ben Bishop for a 2nd, and he's 6"7, 25yrs old ready to be a #1 goalie with star potential.

Not doubting Bernier will be a solid NHL goalie, but at 5"11, he has much lower career potential as it's a huge disadvantage for modern day goalie.

Of the top 20 goalies in number of wins today, only TWO are under 6"1. Vokoun at 6'0 and Tomas at 5"11. That's 18 out of 20 being at or over 6"1!

Many fans are concerned with size of our forward group being too small, it's time for us to realize it is just as important or even more important to get size in goal.

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03-12-2012, 12:22 AM
  #968
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Well in 08 after we knew where we were picking i was begging for Eb's in the draft.

09 Magnus fell to us and was the favorite in that position i was ok with it, but I really wanted one of Kassian, Leddy or Ellis with that pick. we will see how it works out.

10 Taylor Hall was my man before the season started, no doubt in my mind at all. Great pick

11 Was simple, I was pimping RNH as the number 1 in 2010 much like Hall in 09. Probably going to be the best of the Oilers for a number of years. Crazy good.

12 now Im 100% behind Murray if we are picking after #1 (No doubt Yakapov) Theres no doubt in my mind after watching him the last few years how good this kid is. Dumba reminds me of Phaneuf all the way except smaller. Murray has Toews like demeanor except on defense. The kid will lead a team to a stanley cup. Hes that good. I really actually feel Murray will have a more sucessful career than Yakapov, If we picked #1 I really would probably move it for the #2 or #3 spot.

We will see on June 21st but my mind as been made up for a while now.

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03-12-2012, 12:50 AM
  #969
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How convenient of you to misread. I said they were great examples of his horrible defense not his only mistakes. Half the game is kind of misleading too when almost 10 minutes of it is on the Power play, where he put up two of his three points.

Responsibility in front of the net? no body else on the Oil Kings entering the zone, a couple backcheckers coming back hard and you want him to let Pelss just walk in on the next untouched? ok.

Smid has not offensive upside. Reinhart does. Why do you bring Smid into this conversation at all?

Last time I checked it was not our offense that was an issue, it was our defense and goaltending, but hey! lets through a 4th forward out there instead of getting someone that could help Smid and Schultz handle their own end.

Sorry but I will take Murray or Reinhart well before Dumba

Saying you would take Reinhart "well" before Dumba is all anyone really needs to know about where you are coming from.

Im a big Reinhart fan and have seen improvement in his game this season, but he has nowhere near the offensive skill set or acumen that Dumba has.

Dumba was on the pp and the pk, and pretty much every other shift at es.


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03-12-2012, 01:17 AM
  #970
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Saying you would take Reinhart "well" before Dumba is all anyone really needs to know about where you are coming from.

Im a big Reinhart fan and have seen improvement in his game this season, but he has nowhere near the offensive skill set or acumen that Dumba has.

Dumba was on the pp and the pk, and pretty much every other shift at es.
I disagree with the view that he was the best player on the ice. Pysyk, Gernat, Mackenzie all played better games in my opinion. I will say this though. He was was miles above Petrovic last night (was quite the off night for him)


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03-12-2012, 02:23 AM
  #971
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I disagree with the view that he was the best player on the ice. Pysyk, Gernat, Mackenzie all played better games in my opinion. I will say this though. He was was miles above Petrovic last night (was quite the off night for him)
Mark Pysyk was -1 on the night with one assist in a game where his team scored seven goals and outscored the opposition by three.

Matt Dumba was +2 despite two of his three points being scored on the pp, and only two other goals being scored by his own team. But he was a defensive liability because he didnt stop Kristians Pelss from scoring on the pp in a blowout.

You say you would take Reinhard "well ahead" of Dumba. Lets look at that for a minute.

Dumba plays on a ninth place team that has scored 194 goals.

Reinhart plays on the best team in the whl that has scored 294 goals. That's 100 more goals than the Rebels have scored.

In 66gp, Dumba has scored 20G 34A 54pts for .82ppg.

In 55gp, Reinhart has scored 12G 23A 35pts for .64ppg.

Dumba has accounted for 10% of his team's total goals.

Reinhart has accounted for 4% of his team's total goals.

How many points do you think Dumba would have if he played for the Oil Kings?

How many points do you think Reinhart would have if he played for the Rebels?

How many mistakes would Reinhart be making on a nightly basis playing every other shift for the ninth place Rebels?

How many mistakes would Dumba be making playing on a stacked blue line for the best team in the whl?

I apologize for losing my cool and going over the line with my comments. It was not warranted and I hope you understand that I dont have anything against you personally. I do feel that you were being unfair to Dumba and have tried to explain why I feel that way. Hopefully there are no hard feelings.

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03-12-2012, 02:35 AM
  #972
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How good of a passer is Dumba? IMO as much as the kid can rush the puck, a big need on this club is a guy that can find seams on the breakout. From what I've seen of Murray I think that he can be that guy. Can Dumba be that guy as well?

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03-12-2012, 02:38 AM
  #973
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
How good of a passer is Dumba? IMO as much as the kid can rush the puck, a big need on this club is a guy that can find seams on the breakout. From what I've seen of Murray I think that he can be that guy. Can Dumba be that guy as well?
What have you seen of Murray that makes you think he can be that guy?

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03-12-2012, 03:16 AM
  #974
Bryanbryoil
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What have you seen of Murray that makes you think he can be that guy?
WJC and prospects game. Guy looked like a very good puck distributor to me.

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03-12-2012, 03:23 AM
  #975
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WJC and prospects game. Guy looked like a very good puck distributor to me.
The u-18's are coming up next month I believe. Dumba will be a sure bet to be on the team barring injury and the thinking is that he will be the captain.

Will you be able to watch the games?

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