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The Myth of Depth and Other Issues of Concern

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Old
03-08-2012, 12:06 PM
  #51
Tawnos
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I think of Boyle as an effective 3rd line center.
He isn't productive enough offensively to be an effective 3rd line center (notwithstanding the first half of last season). Third liners on a deep team should be putting up 25-40 points.

Darren Helm, Chris Kelly and Manny Malhotra are examples of good third line centers.

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03-08-2012, 12:10 PM
  #52
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I would love to see a couple more Hagelin-esque players in this team's bottom 6. Players that can grind and backcheck, but have the ability to step up offensively. No one in the bottom 6 can really do that.

This team's makeup forces the top line of Gaborik and Stepan to carry most the load. The second line has been good, but needs to really chip in more to help out the top line and provide more scoring depth

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03-08-2012, 12:17 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
He isn't productive enough offensively to be an effective 3rd line center (notwithstanding the first half of last season). Third liners on a deep team should be putting up 25-40 points.

Darren Helm, Chris Kelly and Manny Malhotra are examples of good third line centers.
I do not want this thread to morph into another Boyle debate. But how many 3rd liners are out there putting up 40 points? If your 3rd liner is putting up 12 goals and 15 assists, that is about all you can expect. Not that boyle is putting these numbers up this year, just pointing out what is a realistic expectation of a 3rd line player, points-wise.

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03-08-2012, 12:22 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
I do not want this thread to morph into another Boyle debate. But how many 3rd liners are out there putting up 40 points? If your 3rd liner is putting up 12 goals and 15 assists, that is about all you can expect. Not that boyle is putting these numbers up this year, just pointing out what is a realistic expectation of a 3rd line player, points-wise.
40 points was the upper boundary, not the expectation. I consider more than 40 to be more in the 2nd liner range. I want to see 30-35 from my 3rd line C. 13-15 and 17-20. This isn't a Boyle-centric debate. It's about our lack of a legitimate 3rd line. Boyle is part of that, but he's not the only part of it.

And by the way, I like Brian Boyle a lot. I was one of the people arguing strongly against trading him when people were talking about it earlier in the year. I just think his role isn't as a 3rd liner.

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03-08-2012, 12:28 PM
  #55
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I also just want to mention... we're in a tough little stretch right here, but we do have a 7 game home stand coming up... and it's not 7 in 10 or 6 in 10 like we've been going through. It's 7 in 13 with no back-to-backs, no afternoon games, and obviously no travel. I fully expect this team to be refocused by it.

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03-08-2012, 03:04 PM
  #56
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And by the way, I like Brian Boyle a lot. I was one of the people arguing strongly against trading him when people were talking about it earlier in the year. I just think his role isn't as a 3rd liner.
I see your point. 12-15 goals is about the best that I think that I can expect from most 3rd lienrs. THe chances of a 3rd line scoring 45 goals is low, however. But when it scores 12 as an entire line, yes, that is worrisome. Still, what this does show you are the woes of beign unable to develops a legit top-line player in the last how many years? Callahan is a second liner. We hope Dubinsky is. Hagellin is a 2nd/3rdl line tweener. Stepan is a solid second liner and can play the top line when with a superstar. At least the way that I see him now. Make your own judgement about Anisimov. The last legit top line forward to come through was Amonte. Sure hopign that Krieder is more like him than the others.

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03-08-2012, 05:55 PM
  #57
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People assume, for whatever reason, that things are just going to inexplicably change for the worst when the playoffs start. There is no reason that has to happen. This team is well ahead of the rest of the conference and wins are what matter in the end. Your depth can look great on paper, but if you don't win with it, it doesn't mean anything at all. The other side of that coin is that your depth can look like garbage on paper, but if you win consistently, it doesn't mean much. This team knows how to win. They've won against plenty of fantastic teams, some of them repeatedly. Do they theoretically have the best depth in the league? No. Have they had more success than every other team save for one or two? Yes. That's what matters.

No team goes into the playoffs without a few weaknesses. OP has identified a few our NYR's. Thats fine, thats NHL hockey.

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03-12-2012, 03:00 AM
  #58
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Hagelin - Richards - Gabby
PACK LINE (Dubinsky - AA - Callahan)
Kreider - Stepan - MZA/Mitchell
Rupp/Feds - Boyle - Prust

If all are healthy this could be an interesting lineup for the POs
Depth? - yeah you gotta say that...
Is it deep enough? Nobody knows - yet

PP 1
MZA - Boyle - Gabby
MDZ - Richards

PP 2
Dubinsky/AA - Stepan - Callahan
Staal - Strålman

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03-12-2012, 03:18 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Hagelin - Richards - Gabby
PACK LINE (Dubinsky - AA - Callahan)
Kreider - Stepan - MZA/Mitchell
Rupp/Feds - Boyle - Prust

If all are healthy this could be an interesting lineup for the POs
Depth? - yeah you gotta say that...
Is it deep enough? Nobody knows - yet

PP 1
MZA - Boyle - Gabby
MDZ - Richards

PP 2
Dubinsky/AA - Stepan - Callahan
Staal - Strålman
Kreider would NEED to be with Stepan. They were both on team USA and have some kind of chemistry together. Also, I wouldn't put Dubi in the top 6 at this point in the season. He's just not confident and effective enough to play on that line. Kreider would bring some speed and goal scoring to a line that would be effective along the boards with Cally and has a great passer in Step. Put Dubi on line 3.

Hagelin-Richards-Gaborik
Kreider-Stepan-Callahan
Dubi-Anisimov-Zucc(against less physical)/Mitchell (against more physical)
Prust-Boyle-Feds/Rupp

This is also a group of players who will/could be around next season for the full 82 game schedule. It's much deeper than our current roster.

On defense, you move Staal up with DZ hurting right now. I think it's more logical to pair DZ with Bickel and Staal to be with Stralman. It makes more sense to me as it puts different types of players together

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Stralman
MDZ-Bickel

Stralman is labeled top 4, but can play the least minutes pairing Bickel and Staal together after both PP units go out there as more of a defensive unit to shut down the offensive players coming out after the PK.

This whole alignment goes with Kreider signing an ELC and playing with the Rangers after the college season is over. If he doesn't, it's a lot tougher on the team with Dubi/AA moving up to line 2 and Boyle up to line 3.

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Old
03-12-2012, 06:04 PM
  #60
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We deserve all the credit we deserve, nothing more, nothing less.
We should not allow others to overrate or underrate us, and we shouldn't do that to ourselves.

SBOB, in that vein, it is purposeful to underscore the myth of depth and other issues.



Here is my short input on the basics.
A We don't have enough depth. But that is worse, compounded by
1) an obsession for immediate gratification and
2) an unwillingness to pay a properly high price when necessary

1 --- There is nothing wrong AS A BACKUP, with taking a high enough 1st for Dubinsky, say, to Chicago. However, a smarter move would be something like D Olsen + F McNeil for Dubi + minimal +.

But every time someone suggests taking a 8 steps backwards now to get 14 paces forward next year, the herd mentality says what can you do for me NOW.

2 --- We don't have enough snipers. Besides the Pens, don't think others have 'enough' either. But our terrible F and putrid PP mean we really need snipers. Nothing vs. Brad Richards other than his overpriced contract, which we still needed to do to minimize our competitive gap, but we need more snipers than playmakers.

I looked for a pre-elite sniper, very young, potential to help force the issue for us. I tried to push Taylor Hall, who is overvalued not as pre-elite but elite, and lowballed with Giradi and a hefty +. Our side could not get behind that.

When I said ok, we will NOT do McDonagh and MDZ or add Staal, but only MDZ + Girardi as a basis for a package for Hall, again, rebuff.

There are other options with other players, sure. I'm listening.
But like the Sox gotta consider trading even Ted Williams if they really want to win in order to get pitching, so does Edmonton have to realize that since they got Eberle (arguably more productive than Hall now) and RNH (some think he'll be better soon enough), it could make sense to replace Hall with #2 overall in this draft, if there is enough overpay for D and G.

The trick for us is to come up with something which is terrible to have to swallow, but profitable enough to be worth doing. Give up a great deal --- but NOT too much.

But we are not doing that because of our success, the one that's come when most teams lake focus before the push for the playoffs.

We are good, very good. We have played hard all year.
Most of our competition has been hot and cold. If they bear down, they will only play better. We may still prevail, but we are structurally not a good enough team to win, we need more horses, and we need to overpay for what we need while keeping the core of McDonagh, Staal, Erixon, McIlrath and add. We need to keep Callahan, Hagelin, Anisimov,, Stepan, Prust, Kreider, JT Miller, Fasth, and be bold with the other names to trade up.

But we are not bold.
We can get by for now, but down the road, fortune favors the bold.

B. The other issue is Torts system.
It really burns out the D making it work so hard all the time.
If we could improve offense and take it to the other team more, it would lighten the intensity load for our D, who with all the diving and shot blocking have to be working harder generally than our hard working Fs, just by the position.

Of course, swindles are nice and shouldn't be overlooked.
But when suggestion is made to trade a real resource, Girardi, for offense, it gets shot down.

Gotta be more open minded.

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03-13-2012, 07:53 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
2) an unwillingness to pay a properly high price when necessary
When the asking price is astronomical, there should be an unwillingness to pay it.
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When I said ok, we will NOT do McDonagh and MDZ or add Staal, but only MDZ + Girardi as a basis for a package for Hall, again, rebuff.
Defensemen are at the core of any championship team. Trading an MCD or MDZ. who at a young age have learned to play at such a high level, is folly. Trading a Staal, who last year, was thought to be one of the up an comping top-pairing defensemen inthe league, is also folly. Trading Girardi, who as been the rock of this year's defense, while playing the most amount of minutes in the league, is likewise folly.
Quote:
B. The other issue is Torts system.
Are you suggesting that the team should block less shots and work not quite as hard, and that will make it a better team? The questionable system has let the Rangers be a top team in the league.

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03-13-2012, 03:33 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
When the asking price is astronomical, there should be an unwillingness to pay it.

Defensemen are at the core of any championship team. Trading an MCD or MDZ. who at a young age have learned to play at such a high level, is folly. Trading a Staal, who last year, was thought to be one of the up an comping top-pairing defensemen inthe league, is also folly. Trading Girardi, who as been the rock of this year's defense, while playing the most amount of minutes in the league, is likewise folly.

Are you suggesting that the team should block less shots and work not quite as hard, and that will make it a better team? The questionable system has let the Rangers be a top team in the league.
Respectfully disagree:
"When the asking price is astronomical, there should be an unwillingness to pay it."
The key is not the astronomical price but if the return is worth it.
I did say specifically "a properly high price when necessary" which suggests that condition.

"Defensemen are at the core of any championship team. Trading an MCD or MDZ. who at a young age have learned to play at such a high level, is folly. Trading a Staal, who last year, was thought to be one of the up an comping top-pairing defensemen inthe league, is also folly. Trading Girardi, who as been the rock of this year's defense, while playing the most amount of minutes in the league, is likewise folly."

D heavy or offense heavy, either way is no good, balance is much better, though I agree, balance like chemistry is not everything.

We simply MUST have another sniper not counting Parise we can't count on if we're lucky enough to get him. Girardi + must go unless you want to give up a different D. If we want a serious upgrade, you need to give to get. If we wish to keep McD, Staal, etc, then this is your only option for the moment.

Are you suggesting that the team should block less shots and work not quite as hard, and that will make it a better team? The questionable system has let the Rangers be a top team in the league.
I am not a fan of any system that runs our assets into the ground, whether it be Mike Keenan, or John Tortorella. Play hard yes, prematurely overexert, no.
Torts has too many times our D and even our Fs have to be diving all over the place, risking injury from shots, and getting out of position.

If we could dictate offense more which we could with a finisher, more snipers, we would not have to play as much D in our end..

The system may look all world, but it was exposed vs. Caps last year, throughout this year, and remains compromised until it can be repaired/adjusted.

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03-13-2012, 04:05 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
I did say specifically "a properly high price when necessary" which suggests that condition.
The Properly high" askign price was outrageous. And thus not worth the get.
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We simply MUST have another sniper not counting Parise we can't count on if we're lucky enough to get him. Girardi + must go unless you want to give up a different D. If we want a serious upgrade, you need to give to get. If we wish to keep McD, Staal, etc, then this is your only option for the moment.
I am not sure that a "serious" upgrade is needed. For the offensive woes to disappear, all that would have to occur is for Richards to play like Richards and a move towards mediocrity on the PP. I believe that this team will improve organically (Stepan, hagellin, even a Callahan or Dubinsky, Anisimov...all taking steps forward in their development.). Then the offensive prowers go up. You cannot simply presume that the kids will continue to play at a static level. And no, I am not willing to trade any of the young defensemen.
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I am not a fan of any system that runs our assets into the ground, whether it be Mike Keenan, or John Tortorella. Play hard yes, prematurely overexert, no.
They are not overexerting themselves. They are doing what it takes to win games.
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Torts has too many times our D and even our Fs have to be diving all over the place, risking injury from shots, and getting out of position.
They are diving to block shots and are not caught out of position too much at all.
Quote:
If we could dictate offense more which we could with a finisher, more snipers, we would not have to play as much D in our end..
Making a decision to play less defense, is a quick way to get to disaster.
Quote:
The system may look all world, but it was exposed vs. Caps last year, throughout this year, and remains compromised until it can be repaired/adjusted.
There were many things that were wrong with last year. Not the system.

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03-14-2012, 07:02 PM
  #64
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The Properly high" askign price was outrageous. And thus not worth the get.

I am not sure that a "serious" upgrade is needed. For the offensive woes to disappear, all that would have to occur is for Richards to play like Richards and a move towards mediocrity on the PP. I believe that this team will improve organically (Stepan, hagellin, even a Callahan or Dubinsky, Anisimov...all taking steps forward in their development.). Then the offensive prowers go up. You cannot simply presume that the kids will continue to play at a static level. And no, I am not willing to trade any of the young defensemen.

They are not overexerting themselves. They are doing what it takes to win games.

They are diving to block shots and are not caught out of position too much at all.

Making a decision to play less defense, is a quick way to get to disaster.

There were many things that were wrong with last year. Not the system.

"The Properly high" askign price was outrageous. And thus not worth the get."
Generally disagree.
A sniper, especially a young one without issues, is an extreme premium. Then you have to add because it's Girardi and not McD. So in the totality of the circumstances, no.

"I am not sure that a "serious" upgrade is needed. "
A serious upgrade is a must. We must have general improvement offensively, which is on the way with Kreider, Miller, Fasth, etc.
But we need a deadly sniper. Gaborik is not enough.
Plus, if we get one to add with Gaborik, we look that much more attractive to Parise, because we could hold our own possibly vs. Crosby-Malkin-Neal

"For the offensive woes to disappear, all that would have to occur is for Richards to play like Richards"
Too much belief in belief, sorry.

"and a move towards mediocrity on the PP. "
We need go way more than that, such is how abysmal is our PP.

"I believe that this team will improve organically (Stepan, hagellin, even a Callahan or Dubinsky, Anisimov...all taking steps forward in their development.). "
Agreed.

"Then the offensive prowers go up. You cannot simply presume that the kids will continue to play at a static level. "
Still agree.

"And no, I am not willing to trade any of the young defensemen."
I would consider some for the right return.
Not being open to always getting the best deal is not optimally productive.

"They are not overexerting themselves. They are doing what it takes to win games.
They are diving to block shots and are not caught out of position too much at all."
The system makes them work harder, IMO.
It's mostly a younger team, so it's not as obvious but we get fatigued down the road and it won't be good.

"Making a decision to play less defense, is a quick way to get to disaster."
No one is saying play less total D, I'm just saying.
1 Play smarter, like the old Canadians
2 Get enough horses for the offense to take the game to the opposition. THAT will help the D. Remember other team can't score (as practical matter) when in your half of the ice.

"There were many things that were wrong with last year. Not the system."
System has its pluses and minuses.
The system, like the components within it, can be improved.

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03-14-2012, 07:08 PM
  #65
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People assume, for whatever reason, that things are just going to inexplicably change for the worst when the playoffs start. There is no reason that has to happen. This team is well ahead of the rest of the conference and wins are what matter in the end. Your depth can look great on paper, but if you don't win with it, it doesn't mean anything at all. The other side of that coin is that your depth can look like garbage on paper, but if you win consistently, it doesn't mean much. This team knows how to win. They've won against plenty of fantastic teams, some of them repeatedly. Do they theoretically have the best depth in the league? No. Have they had more success than every other team save for one or two? Yes. That's what matters.

No team goes into the playoffs without a few weaknesses. OP has identified a few our NYR's. Thats fine, thats NHL hockey.
I agree with you... Teams with less depth have gone all the way before (see Carolina), and teams with much better depth have failed to win the cup... In the end it's going to come down to which teams are playing their best hockey when it matters most. A team can dominate the regular season and then slump before the playoffs and get bounced. A team can struggle for much of the season and then get hot heading into the playoffs and do some damage.

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03-15-2012, 08:19 AM
  #66
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A sniper, especially a young one without issues, is an extreme premium. Then you have to add because it's Girardi and not McD. So in the totality of the circumstances, no.
The point is that I am not willing to add or go give anything up for it. Not from the core. Every year we seem to always need one more offensive player. The next one you add, will inevitably als become "we need someone to play with x...".
Quote:
Plus, if we get one to add with Gaborik, we look that much more attractive to Parise, because we could hold our own possibly vs. Crosby-Malkin-Neal
parise is not really an option since signing him to a $6m deal will cause hell. There is no NEED to add a sniper, if it comes at the cost of dismantling the core.
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Too much belief in belief, sorry.
No, logical belief that people play to the numbers on the back of their card.
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We need go way more than that, such is how abysmal is our PP.
Only scoring enough goals to be 15th or 16th in the league on the PP would make a big difference.
Quote:
I would consider some for the right return.
Not being open to always getting the best deal is not optimally productive.
By and large, there is no realistic right return that will be available. Defensemen are much more harder to acquire than forwards. Top defensemen are even tougher. Young, top defensemen who will not have even reached their potential for a few more years, are even moreso.
Quote:
The system makes them work harder, IMO.
Hence they are a hard working team. Period.
Quote:
System has its pluses and minuses.
The system, like the components within it, can be improved.
One can say that about practially anything.

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03-15-2012, 09:22 AM
  #67
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Hitting general topics on this thread:

Depth - We have it in spades. what we lack is the top shelf elite talent in the system . That is part a function of drafting in the middle of 1st year after year and also whifffing on some 1st rounders.

System - It's hard to fault coaching staff for doing what it takes to win games. The danger or concern is that once you get to the playoffs, everybody plays that way so what was a competitive advnatage for the Rangers vanishes. Although the system seems to be conducive to injury, we have to be one of the "least" injured teams this year. The only major injury (Sauer) was result of an open ice hit

Obtaining a Sniper - I agree that people seem to be overrating what we have. Saying that stepan, MDZ, Hagelin, or Kreider are untouchable is lunacy IMO. You don't look to trade guys like that, but if you are adding something you badly need (sniper) and it costs you an asset like that you have to do it.
Hall was obviously never mentioned in rumors. I agree that logically it makes sense from Edmonton standpoint, but I don't think you can trade away a 100 pt player who is 22 yrs old no matter what the return is.

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03-15-2012, 09:52 AM
  #68
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Quote:
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Hitting general topics on this thread:

Depth - We have it in spades. what we lack is the top shelf elite talent in the system . That is part a function of drafting in the middle of 1st year after year and also whifffing on some 1st rounders.
That's not depth then. If a team is stacked with 3rd liners, that's not depth.

Other teams have found elite talent drafting in the middle of the first round.

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03-15-2012, 10:17 AM
  #69
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Truth is much of what you said is a valid concern. But it's about setting expectations. Nobody expected this team to compete for a cup this year, the only reason it's even a thought right now is because we're in 1st.

We've overachieved this year considering how pathetic our offense is. I'd be disappointed if we don't at least make the semi-finals. Making the Finals and losing I would still be happy with this team.

Next season, most likely adding Kreider. And I can see us making a run at another proven goal scorer like Nash or Parise.

Granted if our 3rd line woke up in the playoffs and can pot a few timely goals like DET and Pitts's 3rd lines always seem to do in the playoffs then you really never know what can happen this season with Hank in net.

The playoffs have never really been about the best team winning the cup. It's about a team being hot at the right time. It's the reason why so few President Trophy winners have ever won the cup.

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03-15-2012, 10:32 AM
  #70
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That's not depth then. If a team is stacked with 3rd liners, that's not depth.

Other teams have found elite talent drafting in the middle of the first round.
Agreed. Thats not depth, its a logjam.

The "depth" on this team is just what the title of the thread indicates - a myth. I dont consider prospects who either aren't NHL ready, or arent currently eligible to be playing in the NHL as depth, either.

Take the defense, for example. People love to say how much depth we have, and how one of the top 4 can be traded in the near future for a top-level forward. Who knows how McIlrath and Erixon will work out? Who knows when/if Sauer is coming back?

Extraordinarily wishful thinking says he have depth on defense. Reality shows we have Bickel, Stralman, and Eminger being counted on for important minutes.

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03-15-2012, 10:32 AM
  #71
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Goals and scoring are nice statistics, but the Rangers depth isn't built on scoring depth. Nearly everyone in the lineup has been defensively responsible, which has let the team play low-scoring shutdown games effectively (up until recently). Skill from guys like JAM can put up impressive offensive numbers, but Fedotenko or Mitchell is going to give the team more consistent defensive play, even when they're not playing well. Boyle+Prust and Dubinsky have always been able to match up against teams top lines and play good defense. Boyle plays 15 minutes per game, puts up ~20 points this year, and he's a plus player - that's the best statistic you have to show that while he's not putting up the big stats that are easy to celebrate, he has been an effective hockey player.

The team is strong on defensive depth (both F+D) but perhaps 1-2 guys short on offensive depth. Sather will restock the machine this offseason and make the necessary adjustments to keep it going. There's a trade cooking with Columbus, which is a fire directly under Brandon Dubinsky's ass.

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03-15-2012, 03:15 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Mrpuck View Post
Granted if our 3rd line woke up in the playoffs and can pot a few timely goals like DET and Pitts's 3rd lines always seem to do in the playoffs then you really never know what can happen this season with Hank in net.
You are not goign to find many 3rd lines that have Jordan Staal as it's center.

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03-15-2012, 03:30 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Agreed. Thats not depth, its a logjam.

The "depth" on this team is just what the title of the thread indicates - a myth. I dont consider prospects who either aren't NHL ready, or arent currently eligible to be playing in the NHL as depth, either.

Take the defense, for example. People love to say how much depth we have, and how one of the top 4 can be traded in the near future for a top-level forward. Who knows how McIlrath and Erixon will work out? Who knows when/if Sauer is coming back?

Extraordinarily wishful thinking says he have depth on defense. Reality shows we have Bickel, Stralman, and Eminger being counted on for important minutes.
The fact that this team has relied on Bickel, Eminger, Woywitka and Scott on defense shows the lack of depth.

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03-15-2012, 04:21 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The fact that this team has relied on Bickel, Eminger, Woywitka and Scott on defense shows the lack of depth.
Not true... If Staal and Sauer didn't miss a combined 96 games so far this season, you wouldn't see all 3 of those aforementioned players in the line-up as much as they have been. Probably just one of them...

Staal
Girardi
McDonagh
Del Zotto
Sauer

That's very good defensive depth when the players are healthy.

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03-15-2012, 04:36 PM
  #75
Jabroni
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Not true... If Staal and Sauer didn't miss a combined 96 games so far this season, you wouldn't see all 3 of those aforementioned players in the line-up as much as they have been. Probably just one of them...

Staal
Girardi
McDonagh
Del Zotto
Sauer

That's very good defensive depth when the players are healthy.
But that's precisely what he's saying.

If the Rangers had great depth, then we would have better defensive options than Woywitka, Bickel and Eminger.

The same point applies to the forwards.

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