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Are goalies overglorified in Montreal?

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03-13-2012, 05:05 PM
  #1
Slew Foots
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Are goalies overglorified in Montreal?

Since I feel bad that every single poster (and moderator) misunderstood Palindrom's point in his "Carbonneau: ''Without Budaj, we lose 8-2 tonight'' (Mon-Buf) thread", I'm going to reformulate on his behalf.

Do you think that we tend to overglorify goalies in Montreal?

I do think, in general, that goalies get a little too much credit in Montreal. If Montreal wins, it's because of the goalie. And if they lose, it's usually because the team sucks despite the goalie. This is how it's always been here. Goalies are semi-deities here.

Now has Montreal had very good goalies over the years? Of course, we've been pretty fortunate at the goalie position. But I still feel as though there's always been a tendency here to discredit the team a little too much by attributing the lion's share of success to the goaltenders.

Montreal is sorta like the anti-Philly. In Philly, the goalie is usually unfairly vilified no matter what. When they win, it's because the team is good enough despite the goalie. When they lose, it's the goalie's fault. Sure, they haven't had the best goalies, but stories of how horrendous it's been are very exaggerated.

The fact of the matter is that the league has plenty of good goalies. Good goaltending should be more of a base expectation for at least half the teams now, as opposed to something out of the ordinary to be thankful for.

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03-13-2012, 05:09 PM
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Kriss E
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I agree on some level.
People like to pretend that relying on a goalie to make saves is actually a rare commodity. But very team relies on the one player that is there to stop pucks.

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Old
03-13-2012, 05:10 PM
  #3
76ftw
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No.... not even close. Remember how we treated Price in 09?

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Old
03-13-2012, 05:13 PM
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We'll the un-trained fans, 80 percent of this board are the untrained. Every goal -every loss is the Goalies fault.

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Old
03-13-2012, 05:14 PM
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Aspirine
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We overglorify anything good and we burn to the ground anything bad here in Montreal. That's how we roll dawg.

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03-13-2012, 05:20 PM
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Protest the Hero
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I don't think goalies get the same respect in any other city than they do in Montreal.

Where else would Tretiak get those standing ovations?

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03-13-2012, 05:23 PM
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We overanalyse sentences like "They'd lose 8-2 without Budaj", that's for sure.

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Old
03-13-2012, 05:28 PM
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Hugo Sham
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A man can no more diminish Price's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the numbers, '8-2' on the walls of his cell

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Old
03-13-2012, 05:30 PM
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ThaDevilGirl
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It's easier to analyze one single player who's on the ice for a whole game than 18 skaters who play 45 seconds shifts.

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Old
03-13-2012, 05:47 PM
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Goalies, 4th line grinders, rookies,forwards, defenceman everyone is over glorified on this team

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Old
03-13-2012, 05:49 PM
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This is the city that literally booed one of the greatest goalies of all time right off the team. Also, don't you recall all the bull**** that Price had to put up with when he was 20 years old?

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Old
03-13-2012, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaDevilGirl View Post
It's easier to analyze one single player who's on the ice for a whole game than 18 skaters who play 45 seconds shifts.
This is a good point.

And yeah, most habs fans will give most credits to Carey Price for the victory, but spare his faults in defeat.

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Old
03-13-2012, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ForeverAlone View Post
This is a good point.

And yeah, most habs fans will give most credits to Carey Price for the victory, but spare his faults in defeat.
Not sure about that. I'd say most of the louder Habs fans seem to blame Price for every single goal against him. But then there are also the fans that will blame the defense/deflections, etc.

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03-13-2012, 06:10 PM
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DekeLikeYouMeanIt
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Originally Posted by Aspirine View Post
We overglorify anything good and we burn to the ground anything bad here in Montreal. That's how we roll dawg.
Exactly this.

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Old
03-13-2012, 06:10 PM
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muzion
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That's also because we haven't had a true superstar forward in ages, so we rely on our goalie.

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03-13-2012, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
I don't think goalies get the same respect in any other city than they do in Montreal.

Where else would Tretiak get those standing ovations?
When your team had Vezina, Plante, Dryden and Roy as goaltenders it`s natural that you respect the position more than fans of other teams. Sadly it also means that the goalies will be compared to those Hall of Famers and found lacking.

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03-13-2012, 06:14 PM
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Carey Chant
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Overglorified? If Halak has a good post season like he had with the Habs shrines may be erected and heads will roll for trading the wrong goalie in Habland. Then Price will win us the cup next year and all will be forgotten.

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Old
03-13-2012, 06:29 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post

The fact of the matter is that the league has plenty of good goalies. Good goaltending should be more of a base expectation for at least half the teams now, as opposed to something out of the ordinary to be thankful for.
I wish more people understood that.

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03-13-2012, 06:32 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by 76ftw View Post
No.... not even close. Remember how we treated Price in 09?
Yeah.. because he wasn't good. He wasn't disciplined. He wasn't mature. And he previously had pulled this whole defiant act by imitating Roy and wearing a Washington cap trying to be obnoxious while also thinking he was much better than he was. That tends to rub people the wrong way when the player isn't performing and acting like a ******.

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Old
03-13-2012, 06:35 PM
  #20
poetryinmotion
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No they are not overglorified, on the contrary. Next question.

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03-13-2012, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
Do you think that we tend to overglorify goalies in Montreal?
Yes, and at the same time, we overstate the badness of goalies when they flounder.

Certainly, when goaltenders get credit they tend to get too much. Yes, goalies make fantastic saves, but I think it's often not recognized that NHL goalies are in the NHL specifically because they can make fantastic saves. They are supposed to bail out their defense a significant percentage of the time. Obviously, better goalies do so more regularly, but even an average NHL starter will have great saves and have hot stretches. Ironically, at the same time, we refuse to believe a goalie in a particularly hot/lucky stretch can save an awful club (this happens to pretty all bad clubs at some point but it's especially striking when it happens to fall in the playoffs).

At the same time, goalie performance tends to be measured by reputation more than actual results, and the fanbase tends not to be aware of the extreme volatility of goaltending performance, and the boundaries thereof. Carey Price's .905 season was viewed as a disaster season at the same time as MA Fleury was seen as an elite goalie... with a career average of .905 (at the time). We've not had genuinely awful goaltending in Montreal in a long, long time.

We're slowly realizing that judging goaltenders on the basis of a godawful criteria like goalie wins is pointless, but that gives us precious little to work with -- save percentage works to an extent, but it's extremely variable and luck-driven even beyond factoring in an hypothetical "defense" factor. It is very, very hard to judge goalies objectively -- so most goalie evaluations are reputation plays, generally predicated on team strength.

Average goaltending is common, not that hard to find, cheap, and it should be enough for most teams. The problem is that even elite goaltending is highly volatile, leading to great difficulty in finding it -- and even elite goaltending does not guarantee stable performance. I suspect work directed at a metric such as "scoring chances saved" would really help a lot.

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Old
03-13-2012, 06:38 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
Since I feel bad that every single poster (and moderator) misunderstood Palindrom's point in his "Carbonneau: ''Without Budaj, we lose 8-2 tonight'' (Mon-Buf) thread", I'm going to reformulate on his behalf.

Do you think that we tend to overglorify goalies in Montreal?

I do think, in general, that goalies get a little too much credit in Montreal. If Montreal wins, it's because of the goalie. And if they lose, it's usually because the team sucks despite the goalie. This is how it's always been here. Goalies are semi-deities here.

Now has Montreal had very good goalies over the years? Of course, we've been pretty fortunate at the goalie position. But I still feel as though there's always been a tendency here to discredit the team a little too much by attributing the lion's share of success to the goaltenders.

Montreal is sorta like the anti-Philly. In Philly, the goalie is usually unfairly vilified no matter what. When they win, it's because the team is good enough despite the goalie. When they lose, it's the goalie's fault. Sure, they haven't had the best goalies, but stories of how horrendous it's been are very exaggerated.

The fact of the matter is that the league has plenty of good goalies. Good goaltending should be more of a base expectation for at least half the teams now, as opposed to something out of the ordinary to be thankful for.
Bring the Habs another Lafleur or Béliveau and the goalie will become #2...

but the last two Cups + the most Confrence Finals were stolen by their goalies.

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Old
03-13-2012, 07:05 PM
  #23
Mathradio
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Everything goalie-related is going to be inflated here.

Who has it worse, Bryzgalov or Price?

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Old
03-13-2012, 07:27 PM
  #24
Em Ancien
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I actually think people here underrate goaltending. Montreal has had amazingly consistent success between the pipes compared to just about every organization in the NHL that hasn't had a single starter in recent history.

People think every goalie stops every puck he sees, he never loses sight of the puck around him, deflections are all easily stoppable, etc. If the goalie doesn't do that, well he sucks and get someone else in there.

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Old
03-13-2012, 07:29 PM
  #25
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Goalies are overvalued because of the defensive system, if Habs were all offense pretty sure we would forget about goalies and focus on our 100 pts 50 goals star forward instead

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