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Are goalies overglorified in Montreal?

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Old
03-13-2012, 08:32 PM
  #26
Lafleurs Guy
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We've had great goaltending for a long time from a whole string of goalies. That goaltending has masked some of the problems that our teams have had over the years. We've become spoiled by this and don't know how good we've had it.

Teams like the Flyers, Bolts, Leafs have all suffered from bad netminding. Great goaltending is easy to find... until you don't have it.

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03-13-2012, 08:41 PM
  #27
Slew Foots
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We've had great goaltending for a long time from a whole string of goalies. That goaltending has masked some of the problems that our teams have had over the years. We've become spoiled by this and don't know how good we've had it.

Teams like the Flyers, Bolts, Leafs have all suffered from bad netminding. Great goaltending is easy to find... until you don't have it.
Are teams like the Flyers, Bolts and Leafs the exception, or the norm in this league?

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03-13-2012, 08:54 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
I actually think people here underrate goaltending. Montreal has had amazingly consistent success between the pipes compared to just about every organization in the NHL that hasn't had a single starter in recent history.

People think every goalie stops every puck he sees, he never loses sight of the puck around him, deflections are all easily stoppable, etc. If the goalie doesn't do that, well he sucks and get someone else in there.
Detroit and NY Rangers say hi.

I'd say, some fans hate a team A because his/her favorite team failed to draft/trade for a player playing for team A (and that player is an upgrade over what his/her favorite team has in a given position), and that would be how some Flyers fans feel about the Habs, having failed to trade for Carey Price when it was the time to do it.

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03-13-2012, 09:01 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
Since I feel bad that every single poster (and moderator) misunderstood Palindrom's point in his "Carbonneau: ''Without Budaj, we lose 8-2 tonight'' (Mon-Buf) thread", I'm going to reformulate on his behalf.

Do you think that we tend to overglorify goalies in Montreal?

I do think, in general, that goalies get a little too much credit in Montreal. If Montreal wins, it's because of the goalie. And if they lose, it's usually because the team sucks despite the goalie. This is how it's always been here. Goalies are semi-deities here.

Now has Montreal had very good goalies over the years? Of course, we've been pretty fortunate at the goalie position. But I still feel as though there's always been a tendency here to discredit the team a little too much by attributing the lion's share of success to the goaltenders.

Montreal is sorta like the anti-Philly. In Philly, the goalie is usually unfairly vilified no matter what. When they win, it's because the team is good enough despite the goalie. When they lose, it's the goalie's fault. Sure, they haven't had the best goalies, but stories of how horrendous it's been are very exaggerated.

The fact of the matter is that the league has plenty of good goalies. Good goaltending should be more of a base expectation for at least half the teams now, as opposed to something out of the ordinary to be thankful for.
I don't disagree with the concept but there is a simple reason for it though: this team has lacked top end offensive talent for decades now. I mean, when Plekanec, Kovalev have been the team's best offensive talent in recent memory, it's a sad situation. This team has relied on solid goaltending for too long already as if they don't perform, the team has no chance.

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03-13-2012, 09:01 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
Are teams like the Flyers, Bolts and Leafs the exception, or the norm in this league?
Well, we're not the norm.

Theo - Vezina winner/Hart Winner
Huet - Awesome
Halak - Awesome
Price - Awesome

Those guys got us 8th place many times when we had no business being in the playoffs. Price has actually fared very well this year with the team in front of him. We don't know how good we've had it.
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Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Detroit and NY Rangers say hi.

I'd say, some fans hate a team A because his/her favorite team failed to draft/trade for a player playing for team A (and that player is an upgrade over what his/her favorite team has in a given position), and that would be how some Flyers fans feel about the Habs, having failed to trade for Carey Price when it was the time to do it.
Can't think of too many other clubs that have had the goaltending we have. We may not have had the best goaltending in the league but it's been damn good.

As for Price, Washington probably should've got him. They lost big time in the lottery that year and we drafted in the top five when it probably should've been them.

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03-13-2012, 09:06 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Detroit and NY Rangers say hi.

I'd say, some fans hate a team A because his/her favorite team failed to draft/trade for a player playing for team A (and that player is an upgrade over what his/her favorite team has in a given position), and that would be how some Flyers fans feel about the Habs, having failed to trade for Carey Price when it was the time to do it.
Considering the Rangers have had Lundqvist as their only starter (which eliminates them from my criteria).

And Osgood has some good seasons and relatively bad seasons for the Wings. I wouldn't say they had 'consistent success', more of a case where their overall team and structure could get them wins with a guy that whiffs on easy shots. Since they've had Howard, they're golden though.

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03-13-2012, 09:08 PM
  #32
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Only goalies i've seen in the past 40yrs that i would consider glorified based on preformance would be Ken Dryden and Patrick Roy.
Roy and Dryden weren't great every game they played, but they were unbeatable when the game was on the line. Rock solid when needed.

A steady dependable goalie will take you a long way in the game of hockey. Philly and Ottawa has had some real good hockey teams over the past 10-15 yrs but failed to go out and get even an average steady goalie to put them over the hump. They must have used up 20 different goalies with no luck.

Goalies have to be in the zone 99.9% of the time to take a team all the way to the cup.
Playoffs are very tough and you have to be mentally ready every night out, even when
your up 2, 3 goals in a game, you can't let your guard down one little bit, if you do and you let in a couple of soft goals , the next game out is even tougher to win.

You can have all the goalie skills you need, if you don't have it going on in your head, you'd better have a hell of a team in front of you to get that cup ring

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03-13-2012, 09:10 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Well, we're not the norm.

Theo - Vezina winner/Hart Winner
Huet - Awesome
Halak - Awesome
Price - Awesome

Those guys got us 8th place many times when we had no business being in the playoffs. Price has actually fared very well this year with the team in front of him. We don't know how good we've had it.

Can't think of too many other clubs that have had the goaltending we have. We may not have had the best goaltending in the league but it's been damn good.

As for Price, Washington probably should've got him. They lost big time in the lottery that year and we drafted in the top five when it probably should've been them.
I don't think Caps fans hate on the Habs or the Bruins only because of their 2005 draft failure with respect to goaltending.

The Flyers didn't want Halak to start with so it's unlikely that they started hating the Blues once the Blues landed Halak.

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03-13-2012, 09:13 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Well, we're not the norm.

Theo - Vezina winner/Hart Winner
Huet - Awesome
Halak - Awesome
Price - Awesome

Those guys got us 8th place many times when we had no business being in the playoffs. Price has actually fared very well this year with the team in front of him. We don't know how good we've had it.
Your extreme position perfectly epitomizes my point.

The usage of the word "awesome" is interesting. I'll agree that Halak's ridiculous performance in the 2010 playoffs was "awesome". Besides that, you could argue that we have had above average goaltending - awesome is a stretch, but I don't want to spend too much time on semantics. Saying "we had no business being in the playoffs" is exactly what I mean when I say that some tend to overglorify our goalies and discredit the rest of the team's work. You can say that our goaltending has been good, but to say our team had no business being in the playoffs is simply false. The Habs have had good teams on paper, and almost always spend up to the cap. Also, most teams need good goaltending to make the playoffs. Most teams who make the playoffs do get good goaltending. Do the Rangers have any business making the playoffs if it wasn't for their goalie? The Predators? The Bruins? The Blues? You get my point.

Hockey is a team game. A goalie is only as good as the players in front of him. Even Carey will tell you that .

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03-13-2012, 09:27 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by NRG87 View Post
Your extreme position perfectly epitomizes my point.

The usage of the word "awesome" is interesting. I'll agree that Halak's ridiculous performance in the 2010 playoffs was "awesome". Besides that, you could argue that we have had above average goaltending - awesome is a stretch, but I don't want to spend too much time on semantics. Saying "we had no business being in the playoffs" is exactly what I mean when I say that some tend to overglorify our goalies and discredit the rest of the team's work. You can say that our goaltending has been good, but to say our team had no business being in the playoffs is simply false. The Habs have had good teams on paper, and almost always spend up to the cap. Also, most teams need good goaltending to make the playoffs. Most teams who make the playoffs do get good goaltending. Do the Rangers have any business making the playoffs if it wasn't for their goalie? The Predators? The Bruins? The Blues? You get my point.

Hockey is a team game. A goalie is only as good as the players in front of him. Even Carey will tell you that .
Why would you characterize what I said as 'extreme?' Look at the standings and where we finished. Almost every year we barely scraped in. One year we got in on a tiebreaker.

Theo was a Vezina winner... that's not awesome?
Huet's numbers sv pctg: .929, 916,920... that's not awesome?
Price takes over with .920 and Huet has .916 as his backup.
2009 was about the only season where we didn't get 'great' goaltending from Price and Halak.
2010 Halak is amazing
2011 Price is amazing
2012 Price is good but not great.

Almost every year we barely make the playoffs even with that kind of goaltending going for us. My post is based on the facts man and I don't see how you can call what I said as 'extreme.'

Here's where we finished btw:

In 2002 we get 87 points in JT Vezina season
In 2003 we get 77 points when JT doesn't play well
In 2004 JT has a sv pctg of .919 and we get 93 points Garon plays even better with .921 btw
In 2006 Huet drags us into the playoffs with a .929 pctg. We get 93 points
In 2007 Huet has a .916 save pctg and gets hurt. We miss the playoffs.
In 2008 Team is suddenly incredible. Goaltending doesn't matter we take 1st in the East.
In 2009 Goalies aren't great but we manage to squeak in with 93 points... again.
In 2010 Halak is heroic and team is horrific. We still manage to get in with 88 points.
In 2011 Price is heroic... we play okay in front of him but he's spectacular for us. We still only get 96 points.

Dude, you take away the goaltending we've had and we'd have missed the playoffs on numerous occassions. Look at '07, goaltending is not bad and we miss. This season goaltending is... not bad and we miss. Too often our goaltending has to be great just to get in. So no, our goaltending is not overhyped. We've been really fortunate with the goalies we've had. Our goalies HAVE had awesome years and we still only get in with 93 points. Right at the cutoff line. Vezina season and we only get 87 points? C'mon man.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 03-13-2012 at 09:42 PM.
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Old
03-13-2012, 09:53 PM
  #36
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I think we have been spoiled with good goalies and/or good goalie performances so we tend to forget what a terrible goalie is like. In Philly's case, for instance, had you looked at some of the goals their goalies have let in this year (even though they've done much better lately), you'd understand that goalies can really make a big difference in a game.

In the same breath, I'd say that if you've seen and remember Aebischer, you would understand that there really are bad goalies out there, and that they can really screw your team over. It doesn't mean that every game will end 8-0, but players will play on their toes in fear of making a mistake and leaving the goalie alone against an opponent.

Budaj's play yesterday, while not exceptional, was definitely good. Price, I feel, is also underrated by some of our fan base. The way he positions himself and plays the rebounds is top notch. We haven't had this level of technicality in a goalie in a long time in Montreal.

We have good reasons to value the position, in my opinion.

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03-13-2012, 09:58 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Gabe84 View Post
IPrice, I feel, is also underrated by some of our fan base. The way he positions himself and plays the rebounds is top notch. We haven't had this level of technicality in a goalie in a long time in Montreal.
Funny you say that because you're absolutely right. I was talking to several Canucks fans the last couple of days and they would all take Price on their team. They all said that had the Habs had Luongo and the Canucks had Price, the score of the last game would have been reversed and I agree.

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03-13-2012, 10:12 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Funny you say that because you're absolutely right. I was talking to several Canucks fans the last couple of days and they would all take Price on their team. They all said that had the Habs had Luongo and the Canucks had Price, the score of the last game would have been reversed and I agree.
I believe you, but after reading their GDT from our last matchup, the Vancouver fans can be really merciless, as if they had a love child of Racicot and Raycroft in nets. Perhaps your friends are more objective.

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03-13-2012, 10:41 PM
  #39
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I tend to value consistency above all when it comes to a Goalie. Like MathMan said, goalies have a certain minimum level of play that's acceptable in the NHL and most of them HAVE to be able to make game-saving saves (like I mean, being physically capable) once in a while.

Price is just consistent, phenomenally consistent. Halak just isn't, and that's why I'd take Price over him 10 times out of 10.

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03-13-2012, 10:53 PM
  #40
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I think it's the opposite. I think it's undervalued, and for one specific reason, and keep in mind, this is how I see it.
When you're a player ( forward or D ) and you screw up, you've got the rest of the team to rely on so they can fix your mistake. When a goalie screws up, he only has his posts to rely on.
A goalie is either a hero or a zero. He can have a phenomenal game and then have one bad moment and concede a bad goal, he will be remembered for that goal. A forward can be invisible for the whole game and then score the winner with 2 seconds left on a deflected shot, he will be the hero.
People have no idea how hard it is to be in that spot, especially in Montréal, and i doubt they ever will.

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03-13-2012, 11:14 PM
  #41
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Price is just consistent, phenomenally consistent. Halak just isn't, and that's why I'd take Price over him 10 times out of 10.
Just how is Price more consistent than Halak?

The only reason I'd take Price before Halak is because I believe his ceiling is higher but so far, Halak has had the better NHL career

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03-13-2012, 11:20 PM
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Just how is Price more consistent than Halak?

The only reason I'd take Price before Halak is because I believe his ceiling is higher but so far, Halak has had the better NHL career
I do think that Price is more consistent, but we don't really have the stats to back-up that statement, since both play different number of games, in defferent situations, etc..

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03-13-2012, 11:43 PM
  #43
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I think we have been spoiled with good goalies and/or good goalie performances so we tend to forget what a terrible goalie is like. In Philly's case, for instance, had you looked at some of the goals their goalies have let in this year (even though they've done much better lately), you'd understand that goalies can really make a big difference in a game.
Philadelphia is (hopefully!) the last of the great goalie graveyards. It's the only place other than St. Louis that I was ready to ship Halak off when Halak was traded away, because the Flyers would have eaten Halak alive and make Halak suck for the rest of his NHL career. He could have been had for Hartnell+JVR or so.

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03-14-2012, 02:14 AM
  #44
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Winning a Cup in Montreal doesn't feel right without a stellar goalie.


Good thing we have one.

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03-14-2012, 08:08 AM
  #45
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Philadelphia is (hopefully!) the last of the great goalie graveyards. It's the only place other than St. Louis that I was ready to ship Halak off when Halak was traded away, because the Flyers would have eaten Halak alive and make Halak suck for the rest of his NHL career. He could have been had for Hartnell+JVR or so.
There is no **** way the Flyers would have given up Hartnell or JVR for Halak, let alone both. Philly somewhat famously turned down Halak for a 2nd rounder before the playoffs, and after going to the final they were convinced that Michael Leighton was the real deal (with Bobrovsky in the pipeline). There's no way they give away big pieces for Halak. No chance whatsoever.

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03-14-2012, 08:18 AM
  #46
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There is no **** way the Flyers would have given up Hartnell or JVR for Halak, let alone both. Philly somewhat famously turned down Halak for a 2nd rounder before the playoffs, and after going to the final they were convinced that Michael Leighton was the real deal (with Bobrovsky in the pipeline). There's no way they give away big pieces for Halak. No chance whatsoever.
I could be wrong but I don't think they even had Bobrovsky in the pipeline. They signed him the next summer after he put up great numbers in the KHL, but he went undrafted and Philly basically signed him and immediately brought him in the NHL (they were that desperate for a goalie).

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03-14-2012, 08:23 AM
  #47
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I think this season, his point stands.

How many times have we seen the defencemen and forwards leave our goalie out to dry this season? We're putting him in positions that he shouldn't be in, so if we manage to win games despite leaving our goalie all on his own to make the big plays, then it's normal that we praise the goalie.

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03-14-2012, 10:03 AM
  #48
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How many times have we seen the defencemen and forwards leave our goalie out to dry this season?
Much fewer than the narrative would have you believe, which is sort of the point.

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03-14-2012, 11:17 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
There is no **** way the Flyers would have given up Hartnell or JVR for Halak, let alone both. Philly somewhat famously turned down Halak for a 2nd rounder before the playoffs, and after going to the final they were convinced that Michael Leighton was the real deal (with Bobrovsky in the pipeline). There's no way they give away big pieces for Halak. No chance whatsoever.
Halak for a 2nd to Philadelphia was before he had this monster playoff stretch. JVR wasn't worth that much after that one SCF so Hartnell would have been the main piece back then.

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I could be wrong but I don't think they even had Bobrovsky in the pipeline. They signed him the next summer after he put up great numbers in the KHL, but he went undrafted and Philly basically signed him and immediately brought him in the NHL (they were that desperate for a goalie).
They just didn't want to pony up what the Habs were asking for Halak... and I believe that the Habs asked for more from a team in the East than they would from a team in the West.

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03-14-2012, 11:22 AM
  #50
Lafleurs Guy
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Much fewer than the narrative would have you believe, which is sort of the point.
Sorry but this just isn't true. Our D is pretty weak. We fail at clearing the net and we don't offer the help that we should on rebounds. We've played sound positional defense but that only goes so far. Price has been good for us this year.

It's not a coincidence that guys like Rinne, Howard and Thomas get top stats. They are behind Norris cabliber blueliners. Price does not have this and our goalies are almost always sitting behind lower tier offense.

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