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Old
11-12-2003, 06:31 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkBlue
No, Markov's value was significant enough to land what was perceived to be a good #2 Center at the time and a good roleplayer in Travis Green. Markov did blossom under Quinn. Quinn has also only been a coach of this team for 5 years. He arrived here and had nothing much in the system - you can't develop what you don't have. In the years he's been GM, he's drafted the likes of Boyes, Tellan, Stajan, Steen, Colaiacovo. All those players are just now getting ready to start their NHL careers. Once again, your agenda against Quinn is clouding your judgement.

And yes, Antropov broke out last year. 45-50 points show signs of a 2nd liner in the league. Whether he will take the next step is based moreso on his health than the role Quinn gives him. But let me guess, Quinn is at fault for Nik's health issues too.



McCauley had plenty of chance to repeat what he did in the playoffs in 2002. He was given the 2nd line C job at the start of last season and failed. Only you can forget that. Im glad that he started producing in SJ, but he, much like Sullivan and Modin, were players not pulling their weight here.
I agree Blue.
Quinn has brought this team out of another possible dark age since taking over. Players like Sullivan, Smith, Modin, McCauley were all given chances.

Sullivan - Was given a chance in Toronto he looked good on some shifts as he had huge heart though his size saw him get thrown around more times then enough. *if you remember the series aginst the devils* and he would go in huge slumps with out scoring a point. I still disagree with the fact of giving a player away for nothing but unless someone has a time machine I think the issue is dead.

Smith - Jason did not look like he had what it took to be a capable NHL defenseman or at least like the player he has turnt out to be for Edmonton. Jason was put into the right situation and given maybe more of a chance then most other teams would have gave him at that time and he proved all his critics wrong kinda like Cory Cross has done.

McCauley - Alyn has been given more chances then enough with Toronto a more then capable defensive player McCauley just couldn't put it all together to be the player he should have been hopefully in his new home he will find all his tools and become that player.

Modin - God knows what happened to this guy he was given every chance playing with Sundin to produce and he was just a wash.

The questions I would like to ask those who don't think Quinn has done a good job here in Toronto is... Sit back and write some things positive that Quinn has done here for Toronto and then we will weigh them against the negative things he has done.. *This is more so for those bashing Quinn* but anyone feel free to jump in.

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11-12-2003, 09:28 AM
  #77
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"When sullivan does anything of significance on a team that matters in a game that matters, then come back and tell me he was a great loss"

Sullivan has had two 60 and a 70 pt season since he left (considering he would be a second liner in Toronto, I'll call that significant) and had 20 GWG's in 4 seasons. Again, I would call that significant. Plus hes a young, fast winger. What are the Leafs missing? Young, fast wingers. MMMMMMMM, I won't if the leafs could use Sullivan on the team.

"What did Modin do besides putting up 30 points playing with Mats Sundin? Maybe his 0 points in 8 playoff games helped"

Yet in Tampa Bay he scores. Quinn doesn't know how to get young players playing. Right now he'd look really good on Nieuwendyks left wing, knocking in shots the Nieuwendyk can set up.

"Smith was a Mike Smith trade"

Which Quinn wanted to happen, if you think Quinn had nothing to do with this trade and didn't know what they Leafs were getting in return when he didn't object then you're really naive. Maybe Quinn didn't know Ferguson was going after Nieuwendyk until he readin the papers that Nieuwendyk was signed.

"McCauley, as I've explained, was not going to be much more than a role player here. Quinn gave him a chance but he didn't do much with it. Perhaps he should have stuck wtih him"

Quinn never stuck with him in an offensive role for very long. Unless you score in your first game or two (as a young player) Quinn sticks you in a checking role, with linemates who won't help you then claims "your not good enough". Just look at what hes doing with the Sharks, thats all you need to know he could have been a scoring foward for the leafs. Quinn stuck with the China doll rather then McCauley (6 goals and 8 pts in 16 games, not bad for a second liner) good choice. It was just one player, fine its not Quinns fault but its a patern. The leafs had a good group of young players and Quinn destoried that and brough in a bunch of 30+ year old checkers.

"*if you remember the series aginst the devils*"

Whenever I bring up Kaberles poor preformance in the playoffs against the Flyers all I hear is "don't judge him by one playoff run" yet everyone says Sullivan was useless because of ONE PLAYOFF RUN. No Leaf fan who knows anything about hockey wouldn't want this guy back on the team.

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11-12-2003, 10:30 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
"What did Modin do besides putting up 30 points playing with Mats Sundin? Maybe his 0 points in 8 playoff games helped"

Yet in Tampa Bay he scores.
1 50+pt season. 2pts in 19 playoff games. and he's 29yrs old. and you're lamenting the fact that this guy's gone??
Quote:
"Smith was a Mike Smith trade"

Which Quinn wanted to happen, if you think Quinn had nothing to do with this trade and didn't know what they Leafs were getting in return when he didn't object then you're really naive.
And if you think that you know what went on in private conversations between Quinn and Smith before that trade happened then you're just assuming things that you have no way of knowing.
Quote:
"McCauley, as I've explained, was not going to be much more than a role player here. Quinn gave him a chance but he didn't do much with it. Perhaps he should have stuck wtih him"

Quinn never stuck with him in an offensive role for very long. Unless you score in your first game or two (as a young player) Quinn sticks you in a checking role, with linemates who won't help you then claims "your not good enough". Just look at what hes doing with the Sharks, thats all you need to know he could have been a scoring foward for the leafs. Quinn stuck with the China doll rather then McCauley (6 goals and 8 pts in 16 games, not bad for a second liner) good choice.
Yes, 8pts in 16 games is absolutely dominant. I mean that's on pace for what......41pts!! Wow. If only we had someone on this team that could score 40pts in a single season we'd be set. What a huge mistake by Quinn. Oh wait, look at that Robert Reichel put up 42pts playing a checking role all last year. Well what do you know, I guess you can't blame McCauley's lack of production on that after all. Did you also happen to notice that Alyn currently has the worst +/- of any Shark?

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11-12-2003, 11:34 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
"When sullivan does anything of significance on a team that matters in a game that matters, then come back and tell me he was a great loss"

Sullivan has had two 60 and a 70 pt season since he left (considering he would be a second liner in Toronto, I'll call that significant) and had 20 GWG's in 4 seasons. Again, I would call that significant. Plus hes a young, fast winger. What are the Leafs missing? Young, fast wingers. MMMMMMMM, I won't if the leafs could use Sullivan on the team.

"What did Modin do besides putting up 30 points playing with Mats Sundin? Maybe his 0 points in 8 playoff games helped"

Yet in Tampa Bay he scores. Quinn doesn't know how to get young players playing. Right now he'd look really good on Nieuwendyks left wing, knocking in shots the Nieuwendyk can set up.

"Smith was a Mike Smith trade"

Which Quinn wanted to happen, if you think Quinn had nothing to do with this trade and didn't know what they Leafs were getting in return when he didn't object then you're really naive. Maybe Quinn didn't know Ferguson was going after Nieuwendyk until he readin the papers that Nieuwendyk was signed.

"McCauley, as I've explained, was not going to be much more than a role player here. Quinn gave him a chance but he didn't do much with it. Perhaps he should have stuck wtih him"

Quinn never stuck with him in an offensive role for very long. Unless you score in your first game or two (as a young player) Quinn sticks you in a checking role, with linemates who won't help you then claims "your not good enough". Just look at what hes doing with the Sharks, thats all you need to know he could have been a scoring foward for the leafs. Quinn stuck with the China doll rather then McCauley (6 goals and 8 pts in 16 games, not bad for a second liner) good choice. It was just one player, fine its not Quinns fault but its a patern. The leafs had a good group of young players and Quinn destoried that and brough in a bunch of 30+ year old checkers.

"*if you remember the series aginst the devils*"

Whenever I bring up Kaberles poor preformance in the playoffs against the Flyers all I hear is "don't judge him by one playoff run" yet everyone says Sullivan was useless because of ONE PLAYOFF RUN. No Leaf fan who knows anything about hockey wouldn't want this guy back on the team.
Sluggo What happened with Sullivan was at the time the leafs were to small I agree however it was a dumb move to give him up for nothing at all. And sure Sullivan would look great on one of the leafs top 2 lines but who's to say he would be the player he is today simply because he gets loads of ice time with Chicago..

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11-12-2003, 11:55 AM
  #80
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"1 50+pt season. 2pts in 19 playoff games. and he's 29yrs old. and you're lamenting the fact that this guy's gone?? "

A 22 and 32 goal seaons. And given the choice I'd rather have him then the NOTHING we've got to show for him.

"And if you think that you know what went on in private conversations between Quinn and Smith before that trade happened then you're just assuming things that you have no way of knowing"

Use your damn head. Quinn didn't play him and didn't want him, if he did then Smith wouldn't have traded him. Quinn has as much to do with that trade as Smith did.

"Yes, 8pts in 16 games is absolutely dominant. I mean that's on pace for what......41pts!! Wow. If only we had someone on this team that could score 40pts in a single season we'd be set"

Considing your talking a second liner whos also a solid 2-way player (the Sharks whole team is crap on defense, he was a career +7 with the leafs. Hes also has the same +/- as Marleau, I guess you wouldn't want him either) thats not bad production. Plus the guy they got for him is making like 6 million more a year, didn't show up in the playoffs at all, is an injury waiting to happen and has 7 points (and has only scored in one game). So ya, I'd take the young, healthier, cheaper, more productive player, but hey thats just me (of course then we'd still have Boyes and that draft pick as well).

"Sluggo What happened with Sullivan was at the time the leafs were to small I agree however it was a dumb move to give him up for nothing at all. And sure Sullivan would look great on one of the leafs top 2 lines but who's to say he would be the player he is today simply because he gets loads of ice time with Chicago"

Give him loads of ice time with the Leafs, with better talent. Its just Quinn's inability to deal with young players.

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11-12-2003, 12:17 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
A 22 and 32 goal seaons. And given the choice I'd rather have him then the NOTHING we've got to show for him.
two 20+ goal seasons in 8 NHL tours of duty and he hasnt broken the 40pt barrier in 3yrs. I hope you're as disappointed about losing Hoglund then because his stats are even more impressive.
Quote:
Use your damn head. Quinn didn't play him and didn't want him, if he did then Smith wouldn't have traded him. Quinn has as much to do with that trade as Smith did.
Yeah because GM's never do anything without the coach's say-so. You only need to look at the original title of this thread to know that coaches and GM's arent always on the same page. Sorry can't blame that one on Quinn.
Quote:
Considing your talking a second liner whos also a solid 2-way player (the Sharks whole team is crap on defense, he was a career +7 with the leafs. Hes also has the same +/- as Marleau, I guess you wouldn't want him either) thats not bad production. Plus the guy they got for him is making like 6 million more a year, didn't show up in the playoffs at all, is an injury waiting to happen and has 7 points (and has only scored in one game). So ya, I'd take the young, healthier, cheaper, more productive player, but hey thats just me (of course then we'd still have Boyes and that draft pick as well).
Wow conveniently ignoring history are we? To say that McCauley is more productive than Nolan is a complete joke. And I dont know what stats you're looking at but McCauley and Marleau don't have the same +/-. I do like though how you can completely ignore the fact that Nolan was injured to explain his lack of production yet at the same time have no problem justifying McCauley's lack of past production with other excuses. You seem to have no problem twisting any stats you can get your hands on to suit what you want them to say and are completely ignorant to any opposing points of view.

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11-13-2003, 07:53 AM
  #82
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"two 20+ goal seasons in 8 NHL tours of duty and he hasnt broken the 40pt barrier in 3yrs. I hope you're as disappointed about losing Hoglund then because his stats are even more impressive"

And so far this year he has 7 points in 13 games. For a second liner those aren't bad stats. And Modin was a Leafs draft pick, what do we have to show for that pick now? NOTHING, I'd rather have the two 20+ seasons (which we never got).

"Yeah because GM's never do anything without the coach's say-so. You only need to look at the original title of this thread to know that coaches and GM's arent always on the same page. Sorry can't blame that one on Quinn."

Smith and Quinn weren't at each others throats. It was Quinns choice to dump Smith, and he had no problem with the return.

"To say that McCauley is more productive than Nolan is a complete joke."

Hes got more points this year, which is all that matters this year.

"And I dont know what stats you're looking at but McCauley and Marleau don't have the same +/-"

NHL.com - http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/stats

"I do like though how you can completely ignore the fact that Nolan was injured to explain his lack of production yet at the same time have no problem justifying McCauley's lack of past production with other excuses"

Once again, McCauley is more productive NOW (which is all that matters) and hes healthier. Ya, good trade off

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11-13-2003, 09:36 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
Hes got more points this year, which is all that matters this year.

Once again, McCauley is more productive NOW (which is all that matters) and hes healthier. Ya, good trade off
Excellent. Ill trade you Rico Fata for Mats Sundin any day. After all, how many points you have NOW is all that matters right? Or howbout Mike Knuble for Brad Richards? Done deal.

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11-14-2003, 07:40 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
Excellent. Ill trade you Rico Fata for Mats Sundin any day. After all, how many points you have NOW is all that matters right? Or howbout Mike Knuble for Brad Richards? Done deal.

lol

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11-15-2003, 10:40 AM
  #85
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"Excellent. Ill trade you Rico Fata for Mats Sundin any day. After all, how many points you have NOW is all that matters right? Or howbout Mike Knuble for Brad Richards? Done deal."

Nolan hasn't scored more then 25 goals since 2000, and he hasn't played a full season (80+ games) EVER (78 is his highest, in 1999-2000). And this year hes not producing at all. If he plays 75 games (he has the last two years) hes on track for 13 goals (and two of his goals this year were in one game, hes only scored in 2 games). McCauley is on track to play more games and score more goals. Hes producing more, hes healthier, hes younger, hes cheaper. On one hand you have an old, injury prone vet player who is at the end of his prime (at least judging by his production not only this year, but hte last 3 as well) and on the other you have a younger player whos not injury prone and is now becoming a good offensive producer. Who would have guess if you gave McCauley some more offensive linemates, more ice time (hes getting 5-6 minutes more witht he Sharks) and a little instruction he'd start scoring. But instead we have a walking back injury whos dispeared in the playoffs (and if I remember right we got him FOR the playoffs - and the yearbefore McCauley was GREAT in the playoffs) and has played terribly so far this year.

See Sundin hasn't be going down hill the last couple years like Nolan has, nor has Fata shown an offensive prior to this season, McCauley has. Quinn just doesn'tk now how to handle young players.

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11-15-2003, 01:57 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
[B]Nolan hasn't scored more then 25 goals since 2000,
Ehm sluggo, he scored 29 last year...

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11-15-2003, 02:02 PM
  #87
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Your right, I was looking at it as too stats and didn't make the connection, sorry. However he did score 7 of those (I think, I'm too lazy to look it up now) while he was having that good 10 game run with the Leafs, before that he wasn't producing that well either. I'd rather have McCauly, Boyes and have gone after someone like Carter or Whitny etc... as the last top 6 foward for the leafs.

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11-15-2003, 02:18 PM
  #88
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Your all dreaming

Quinn will never be fired

he will retire before he is ever fired

Trust me

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