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When Markov's back, what happens to Kaberle?

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Old
03-14-2012, 12:14 AM
  #226
Miller Time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
I looked at the top 50 cap hits for defencemen in the NHL

The following are NOT on the top pairing of their team.

8. Redden, Wade D NYR 34 6 $6,500,000 - AHLer
9. Timonen, Kimmo D PHI 36 6 $6,333,333 - 4th in ice time per game, 3rd without counting Pronger
13. Visnovsky, Lubomir D ANA 35 5 $5,600,000 - 3rd in ice time per game.
15. Gonchar, Sergei D OTT 37 3 $5,500,000 - 3rd in ice time per game
17. Green, Mike D WAS 26 4 $5,250,000 - 4th in ice time per game.
20. Rozsival, Michal D PHO 33 4 $5,000,000 - 5th in ice time per game
24. Hainsey, Ron D WIN 30 5 $4,500,000 - 4th in ice time per game
25. Komisarek, Mike D TOR 30 5 $4,500,000 - 5th in ice time per game, regular healthy scratch
26. Hamhuis, Dan D VAN 29 6 $4,500,000 - 3rd in ice tme per game.
28. Johnson, Jack D CLB 25 7 $4,357,143 - 4th in ice time per game.
29. Volchenkov, Anton D NJD 30 6 $4,250,000 - 7th in ice time per game (6th without injuries/trades).
31. Liles, John-Michael D TOR 31 4 $4,200,000 - 3rd in ice time per game
32. Ballard, Keith D VAN 29 6 $4,200,000 - 8th in ice time per game, regular healthy scratch.
33. Jovanovski, Ed D FLA 35 4 $4,125,000 - plays third pairing minutes
35. Regehr, Robyn D BUF 31 5 $4,020,000 - 6th in ice time per game.
38. Whitney, Ryan D EDM 29 6 $4,000,000 - 3rd in ice time per game
39. Meszaros, Andrej D PHI 26 6 $4,000,000 - 5th in ice time per game.
40. Zidlicky, Marek D NJD 35 3 $4,000,000 - 3rd in ice time per game.
41. Michalek, Zbynek D PIT 29 5 $4,000,000 - 4th in ice time per game
43. Staal, Marc D NYR 25 5 $3,975,000 - 4th in ice time per game.
45. Kubina, Pavel D PHI 34 2 $3,850,000 - 6th in ice time per game.
47. Spacek, Jaroslav D CAR 38 3 $3,833,333 - 7th in ice time per game.
49. Stuart, Brad D DET 32 4 $3,750,000 - 5th in ice time per game.

So 11 of the top 50 paid defenceman paid defencemen on their third pair or lower. (12 including Kaberle)
And 23 players of the top 50 paid defencemen don't play on their team's top pair.

Wow... at least when some people "cherry pick", their arguments are at least somewhat sound... this is just... well, wow...

Stuart- 20:48min/game
Kubina- 19:48min/game (was over 20min with tampa, on a better team, his minutes have dropped)
Meszaros- 20:39min/game
Rosival- 19:18min/game (was over 20min before serious concussion, minutes limited since return)

of the rest:

Redden is permanently in the AHL b/c of his contract.
Komisarek, Ballard, Volchenkov & Jovocop have all been clear disapointments for their teams since signing their contracts.

Regher signed his deal in 07, 5 years ago when he was a top-pairing shut-down dman.


and this is the way you reason that Kaberle isn't badly overpaid? You can't be serious... can you?


"top-pairing" like any other designation, is a term of reference. What we are (or should) be talking about is impact.

a player who can handle 20+min/game for his team effectively, is what were talking about. Obviously, it depends entirely on what other players are on your team, how deep the defensive group is...

Gorges is clearly a "top-pairing" player for us, but he clearly wouldn't be for Chicago (or I should say, likely wouldn't, though of course they could chose to pair him with Keith and put Seabrook on the "2nd pairing".

How many minutes a dman can reasonably handle is what's important.

Kaberle, on a team with a weak & inexperienced defense, 17:41min/game, and that average has gone up since Gill (the most experienced guy on the team) left town.

Paying a guy 4.25M$ and then not being able to use him ~20min/game (wether on the first or second or even 3rd pairing) is not good cap management.

nothing you've presented deals with that fact.

mistakenly highlighting a bunch of guys who A-play ~20min/game for their team or B- are CLEARLY overpaid/underperforming does nothing but show how wrong your argument is.



i mean, are you for real? or is this just one long "joke", with a big waiting for us at the end?

at least that would make some kind of sense...

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Old
03-14-2012, 12:27 AM
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
The best part about having Kaberle is that our next GM won't be able to use that cap space on an even worst contract.
at first I

then I



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullsmith View Post
Kaberle brings more negatives than positives at this point. One of the reasons he get compared to Gomez so much isn't just that they both have bad contracts, it's that both are lazy soft-as-toilet-paper players who show no heart, don't work, don't practice hard and don't bring **** to the team beyond the ability to make a pretty pass. I wouldn't want him back on the roster next year if his salary hit was zero, frankly.
someone has been watching the game...

Quote:
Originally Posted by windycity View Post
Worse, pylons don't pass to the other team.

I'm actually shocked by some of the basic bonehead moves he pulls in our zone, like that perfect pass he sent out front of our net in the Calgary or Edmonton game, forget which. I mean that's like the 1st or 2nd thing you're taught NOT to do in hockey
someone else clearly watching the games...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProMath View Post
What should be Kaberle Cap hit ?

Of course he is overpaid for a 3rd pairing defenseman.

2 million cap hit, would you say Kaberle is a good asset ?
Chiarelli, after trading a ton of assets for him, actually made an effort to sign him at what he thought his contributions were worth (i initially thought they didn't even bother, turns out, they didn't mind keeping him, just at what their evaluations valued him at).

When Kaberle balked, and rightfully figured some other GM would pay him more after July 1st, Chiarelli went out and found a very suitable replacement for 2.25M$.

@ 2.25M$, I'd still hate having to watch his soft play and complete lack of competitiveness, but at least I could reason that his production had some value & for 2.25M$ you can reasonably fit in a one-trick pony type dman who otherwise needs 3rd pairing minutes (<18min/game) primarily focused on either PP or PK.

Really, Kaberle's value is on par with someone like Gill (even if, emotionally speaking, Gill delivers far more on the "intangible" side, & at least you know the guy is busting his ass for the team).

Gill, like Kaberle, needed limited ES minutes, but gave the team some usefulness on special teams.

@ ~2M$, that's a decent roster spot filled in a cap system

Kaberle's points may be valued more by some, but in real hockey terms, his faults are so large that they very much undermine the "value" of his smooth passing and offensive instincts.

pts are always over-valued by fans, especially those who don't bother, or don't really watch the game aside from when goals are scored (and replayed).... it's why the "highlights" are predominantely of the goals, with saves/hits/fights/injuries added in.

watch a game with someone, or a group of people, who really know the game (and this applies to all sports) and you'll get tons of reactions to beautiful subtle plays that will never make the highlight reel, but that those who "get it" appreciate how much skill/saavy/agility/desire/athleticism those types of plays require.


It's at the heart of why a quality scout, who really knows what he's looking for, will always trump any collection of statistical analysis in evaluating a player... the indepth stats can be an excellent complement (and an excellent deterrent against mediocre/lazy scouts) but can't capture the subtlety and minutiae that ends up separating bad from average, average from good, good from great and great from "generational".

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Old
03-14-2012, 12:35 AM
  #228
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I've been away -- any health updates on sissy Markov ?

Freakin Beliveau has a stronger knee than this putz .. maybe Jean is willing to donate his knee ... probably would be back in action faster with the rate those two are going in

ahh.. dark humor is dark nice to be back


EDIT: just saw the gdt -- he's back ??! great, rally win right when we need to lose ! BAH


EDIT # 2: He played Saturday!

# FAIL


I need sleep....................


Last edited by coolasprICE: 03-14-2012 at 12:40 AM.
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Old
03-14-2012, 01:15 AM
  #229
Et le But
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I've been away -- any health updates on sissy Markov ?

Freakin Beliveau has a stronger knee than this putz .. maybe Jean is willing to donate his knee ... probably would be back in action faster with the rate those two are going in

ahh.. dark humor is dark nice to be back


EDIT: just saw the gdt -- he's back ??! great, rally win right when we need to lose ! BAH


EDIT # 2: He played Saturday!

# FAIL


I need sleep....................
Wow.

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Old
03-14-2012, 01:33 AM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I've been away -- any health updates on sissy Markov ?

Freakin Beliveau has a stronger knee than this putz .. maybe Jean is willing to donate his knee ... probably would be back in action faster with the rate those two are going in

ahh.. dark humor is dark nice to be back


EDIT: just saw the gdt -- he's back ??! great, rally win right when we need to lose ! BAH


EDIT # 2: He played Saturday!

# FAIL


I need sleep....................
well...

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Old
03-14-2012, 01:37 AM
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I've been away -- any health updates on sissy Markov ?

Freakin Beliveau has a stronger knee than this putz .. maybe Jean is willing to donate his knee ... probably would be back in action faster with the rate those two are going in

ahh.. dark humor is dark nice to be back


EDIT: just saw the gdt -- he's back ??! great, rally win right when we need to lose ! BAH


EDIT # 2: He played Saturday!

# FAIL


I need sleep....................
Well that was a fun read this early in the morning!

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Old
03-14-2012, 01:45 AM
  #232
WhiskeySeven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Wow.
It's like Mr.Habs and Habaneros share a third account.

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Old
03-14-2012, 05:57 AM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Wow... at least when some people "cherry pick", their arguments are at least somewhat sound... this is just... well, wow...

Stuart- 20:48min/game
Kubina- 19:48min/game (was over 20min with tampa, on a better team, his minutes have dropped)
Meszaros- 20:39min/game
Rosival- 19:18min/game (was over 20min before serious concussion, minutes limited since return)

of the rest:

Redden is permanently in the AHL b/c of his contract.
Komisarek, Ballard, Volchenkov & Jovocop have all been clear disapointments for their teams since signing their contracts.

Regher signed his deal in 07, 5 years ago when he was a top-pairing shut-down dman.

and this is the way you reason that Kaberle isn't badly overpaid? You can't be serious... can you?

"top-pairing" like any other designation, is a term of reference. What we are (or should) be talking about is impact.

a player who can handle 20+min/game for his team effectively, is what were talking about. Obviously, it depends entirely on what other players are on your team, how deep the defensive group is...

Gorges is clearly a "top-pairing" player for us, but he clearly wouldn't be for Chicago (or I should say, likely wouldn't, though of course they could chose to pair him with Keith and put Seabrook on the "2nd pairing".

How many minutes a dman can reasonably handle is what's important.

Kaberle, on a team with a weak & inexperienced defense, 17:41min/game, and that average has gone up since Gill (the most experienced guy on the team) left town.

Paying a guy 4.25M$ and then not being able to use him ~20min/game (wether on the first or second or even 3rd pairing) is not good cap management.

nothing you've presented deals with that fact.

mistakenly highlighting a bunch of guys who A-play ~20min/game for their team or B- are CLEARLY overpaid/underperforming does nothing but show how wrong your argument is.



i mean, are you for real? or is this just one long "joke", with a big waiting for us at the end?

at least that would make some kind of sense...
all i see are excuses here...

You said most 4million dollar guys are first pairing guys,

I showed thats clearly not the case, but apparently its "cherry picking" to list every guy in the NHL making this money and not on a first pair.

LOL I listed every guy who doesnt fit your criteria and I'm cherry picking

What a joke of an argument that is

How bout you stop pulling **** out of your ass and quit accusing me of cherry picking when i listed EVERY SINGLE GUY who doesnt fit that criteria and get to the real issue?

are you serious that Pavel Kubina at about 19:00 per game and all of 13 pts is a better value for 4 million than Kaberle

He makes more impact because of the extra one or two shifts he plays while still playing against third liners, and doing nothing with it?

Such bias against Kaberle here its not even funny.

2 minutes more per game with 1/3 of the production is not a greater impact, unless these guys are doing something super magical in that time that is the difference between Kabs 17:41 and Kubinas 19:43. The same goes for the rest of those guys

You are acting like Kaberle is some 12-14 minute player, he's not; he's playing ~18 minutes a night. The difference between that and your magical (and completely arbitrary) 20 minute threshold is a measly 2 shifts a night

20 minutes is NOT top pairing for a D. 20 minutes is merely the average time every D on the team would get if the coach rolled three pairings and used his third pair the same as his first pair. There is 60 minutes in a game, 20 minutes is all three pairings being equal

True 1st pairing D play over 23:00-24:00, the extra shifts a true first pairing guy gets do become a significant difference from that 20:00 threshold but these little fluctuations of a shift or two, meh.

But the difference between Kaberle and Kubina (and the rest of the guys within 1 shift of 20 minutes per game, but still 5th or 6th in team ice time) is so small its essentially meaningless. It could come from a million factors (score/situation, coaching preferences, ot/shootout games, injuries to other D, habs dressing 7 D regularly, etc...)

Its white noise here

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Old
03-14-2012, 07:45 AM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Wow... at least when some people "cherry pick", their arguments are at least somewhat sound... this is just... well, wow...

Stuart- 20:48min/game
Kubina- 19:48min/game (was over 20min with tampa, on a better team, his minutes have dropped)
Meszaros- 20:39min/game
Rosival- 19:18min/game (was over 20min before serious concussion, minutes limited since return)

of the rest:

Redden is permanently in the AHL b/c of his contract.
Komisarek, Ballard, Volchenkov & Jovocop have all been clear disapointments for their teams since signing their contracts.

Regher signed his deal in 07, 5 years ago when he was a top-pairing shut-down dman.


and this is the way you reason that Kaberle isn't badly overpaid? You can't be serious... can you?


"top-pairing" like any other designation, is a term of reference. What we are (or should) be talking about is impact.

a player who can handle 20+min/game for his team effectively, is what were talking about. Obviously, it depends entirely on what other players are on your team, how deep the defensive group is...

Gorges is clearly a "top-pairing" player for us, but he clearly wouldn't be for Chicago (or I should say, likely wouldn't, though of course they could chose to pair him with Keith and put Seabrook on the "2nd pairing".

How many minutes a dman can reasonably handle is what's important.

Kaberle, on a team with a weak & inexperienced defense, 17:41min/game, and that average has gone up since Gill (the most experienced guy on the team) left town.

Paying a guy 4.25M$ and then not being able to use him ~20min/game (wether on the first or second or even 3rd pairing) is not good cap management.

nothing you've presented deals with that fact.

mistakenly highlighting a bunch of guys who A-play ~20min/game for their team or B- are CLEARLY overpaid/underperforming does nothing but show how wrong your argument is.



i mean, are you for real? or is this just one long "joke", with a big waiting for us at the end?

at least that would make some kind of sense...
I'm not suggesting that Kaberle is getting a ton of minutes but they have dressed 7 d-men for most games since he's been here. The only guys that have not been affected by that are Subban(because he plays vs top lines plus PP and PK) and Gorges(plays vs top lines and PK). Right now nobody is getting true #3 or 4 minutes, they are being split among Kaberle Campoli Emelin Weber and Markov.

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Old
03-14-2012, 07:50 AM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I'm not suggesting that Kaberle is getting a ton of minutes but they have dressed 7 d-men for most games since he's been here. The only guys that have not been affected by that are Subban(because he plays vs top lines plus PP and PK) and Gorges(plays vs top lines and PK). Right now nobody is getting true #3 or 4 minutes, they are being split among Kaberle Campoli Emelin Weber and Markov.
Kaberle is 4th in minutes/gm on the team which just goes to show this effect

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03-14-2012, 07:59 AM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I've been away -- any health updates on sissy Markov ?

Freakin Beliveau has a stronger knee than this putz .. maybe Jean is willing to donate his knee ... probably would be back in action faster with the rate those two are going in

ahh.. dark humor is dark nice to be back


EDIT: just saw the gdt -- he's back ??! great, rally win right when we need to lose ! BAH


EDIT # 2: He played Saturday!

# FAIL


I need sleep....................
Reading this, I feel like I just went on a long journey, finally made it back, and forgot what I was supposed to do when I got there, lol.

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Old
03-14-2012, 11:01 AM
  #237
Miller Time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I'm not suggesting that Kaberle is getting a ton of minutes but they have dressed 7 d-men for most games since he's been here. The only guys that have not been affected by that are Subban(because he plays vs top lines plus PP and PK) and Gorges(plays vs top lines and PK). Right now nobody is getting true #3 or 4 minutes, they are being split among Kaberle Campoli Emelin Weber and Markov.
very true...

thing is, the club is dressing 7 dmen in large part BECAUSE it makes more sense for them to do that, then to lean on their 4M$ dman to play the kind of minutes expected from that kind of salary.

Campoli & Weber (and I say this despite being "bullish" on Weber's future development), have both struggled mightily this year, and yet campoli is getting MORE ES ice time than our 4M$ dman...

that's a reflection of Kaberle's poor level.

icing 7 dmen isn't a result of having too much quality, it's the result of not enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Kaberle is 4th in minutes/gm on the team which just goes to show this effect
he's 4th in minutes/game b/c the team ices 7 dmen... 2 of which are playing their first year of NHL hockey, 1 a struggling sophomore, and a 4th a struggling vet who has been terrible and yet still gets more ES ice time than the 4M$ player we traded for.

If Kaberle could reasonably handle the ~20min/game that the average 4M$+ dman normally handles, then we wouldn't be forced to dress 7 dmen.

because his ES minutes have to be kept so limited (as a result of his soft, uninspired play), the team is forced into dressing an additional dman.

yet another great example of why he is badly overpaid.

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Old
03-14-2012, 11:58 AM
  #238
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Its still a difference of 2 shifts though what Kabs is playing and what those other D are. The limited ice time effect of 7D is more due to Campoli and Weber at 15:00 each. They are the guys being insulated.

The 18:00 D is fine because Subban-Gorges can play 22:00 and it all works out.

But thats besides the fact Kaberle would be closer to 19-20 minutes if Campoli-Weber were gone and he had a steady defensive partner also capable of 19 minutes

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