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Maple Leafs GM Brian Burke insists ‘tanking’ a non-starter

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Old
03-14-2012, 07:15 AM
  #51
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Obviously the Leafs don't have to lose on purpose.

Brian Burke sure sounds like a man out of touch with reality. He has Blue and White disease folks! It was only a matter of time hahaha

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03-14-2012, 07:17 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
If you were in Burke's shoes though, and claim that he'd be "dumb" if he wants to win now, how would you go about making sure that you get a top 5 pick?
He's already done everything possible in making sure he gets a top 5 pick, and it's working.

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03-14-2012, 07:19 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
Let's put the breaks on this thread for just a quick minute and consider two quick things:


1 - Would Brian Burke, or any GM in the National Hockey League, admit to "tanking"?


The most surefire example of any such strategy is being employed in Edmonton right now, and has been going on for a number of years now. Has anyone in Edmonton ever uttered the word "tank" that has officially been linked to the organization? Absolutely not.

You just don't advocate that. You just don't admit that in public. There's not a single thing in there that I would not expect Brian Burke to say - it's as simple as that.

2 - So you want to tank, huh? HOW???

Seriously - how?? How do you get a professional sports team, full of professional athletes who have prides and egos and who are built from a very young age to WIN and NOT LOSE, to deliberately lose games?

Again, seriously? How do you do that?

Do you scratch Kessel every night from now until the end of the season? That's just not going to happen.

Do you call up the Marlies? Well, that's not going to happen either - the Leafs are down to one single recall from the farm, having used three of the four maximum recalls post-deadline, on Gardiner, Frattin, and Rosehill (Ashton doesn't count).

That leaves the team with one single recall left. Will that really make that much of a difference?

I'm curious - for those that advocate this team "tanking", how does the team go about it? How do you get a team to lose games?

So many people throw out the suggestion that the Leafs should "tank", without actually ever considering HOW. Example:



I don't disagree at all.

A top pick, like a Galchenyuk, would benefit this team.

If you were in Burke's shoes though, and claim that he'd be "dumb" if he wants to win now, how would you go about making sure that you get a top 5 pick?



ITs more about player development and free agent acquisition for me than drafting in the top 5. Sorry, I know thats an unpopular position, but a team this fragile, man, you throw can't throw a high end rookie in to this fray and expect him to succeed. Not in Toronto. He'd be crucified. Do we really, truly believe a 19 year old is going to be able to turn this franchise around? No chance. Zero. The core group is far too fragile and incomplete. A rookie isn't going to make a lick of difference, and it could stunt his development. I don't see why the concept is so difficult to understand for most Leaf fans.

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03-14-2012, 07:21 AM
  #54
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He'll trade it, a second and next years 1st to his favourite team just like last time. We all know first round picks will never succeed in Toronto. Wendal and Darryl say hello. Phil would too but he got spooked by his shadow.

I love the top picks won't succeed argument but then Burke is loading the team with other team's top picks (it's faster) so wtf?

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03-14-2012, 07:22 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Dalton View Post
He'll trade it, a second and next years 1st to his favourite team just like last time.
...if he can trade it for an Eric Staal or similar, I say have at it

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03-14-2012, 07:23 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Durkin67 View Post
ITs more about player development and free agent acquisition for me than drafting in the top 5. Sorry, I know thats an unpopular position, but a team this fragile, man, you throw can't throw a high end rookie in to this fray and expect him to succeed. Not in Toronto. He'd be crucified. Do we really, truly believe a 19 year old is going to be able to turn this franchise around? No chance. Zero. The core group is far too fragile and incomplete. A rookie isn't going to make a lick of difference, and it could stunt his development. I don't see why the concept is so difficult to understand for most Leaf fans.
You're right. It is too late to rebuild through the draft. Burke had his chance and now he is committed to putting this team into the playoffs next season or he will be fired. Handing over the team to a bunch of kids next years is almost a guaranteed playoff miss and another lottery pick.

Leaf Nation was ready for that four years ago. Now its all about trading our way out of this mess. Kids aren't going to help Burke save his job.

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03-14-2012, 07:32 AM
  #57
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The California Golden Seals. Sammy Pollock is one of the top GMs in the history of the game. He did pretty well for himself trading older players from his team to make room for young talent. He'd trade them to non playoff teams for their first picks. He won a lot of Stanley cups. His biggest coup was the trade that got him the pick that was Guy LaFleur and a dynasty.

No point. Just a memory.

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03-14-2012, 07:44 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
You're right. It is too late to rebuild through the draft. Burke had his chance and now he is committed to putting this team into the playoffs next season or he will be fired. Handing over the team to a bunch of kids next years is almost a guaranteed playoff miss and another lottery pick.

Leaf Nation was ready for that four years ago. Now its all about trading our way out of this mess. Kids aren't going to help Burke save his job.


I actually pondered the same thing yesterday. Previous groups had to move futures for established assets to impact not only the club, but the acting management groups' employability. It may have come to that. Burke is in tough to justify his employment and without the acquisition of a legit franchise player regardless of the cost, he may be shown the door.

question is, who is that franchise player? do you have Nonis go after Luongo? Is VAN ready to thrust Schneider into the limelight? If Lou poops the bed in the playoffs again, it might be the case.

Or do you target a top flight forward? How long can a losing franchise like CAR afford Staal? Sure, they have cap, but they also have an internal budget...


I think the writing is on the wall. without consistent goaltending, this team goes nowhere. If you can't keep the puck from crossing your goal line, no superstar rookie is going to bail you out.

If Burke can land an impact player via trade (JVR is my best guess), move out some dead wood players, and do something about the goaltending, theres a chance he can salvage this thing next year...but the honeymoon is waaay over...time to make something happen...

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03-14-2012, 07:48 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Neas Olc View Post
OK, great Burke. Thanks for telling us. Fact is the team you built is garbage and will tank whether or purpose or not.
Exactly. Somehow, most Leaf fans couldn't see it or anticipate it. Where were they? Take off the freakin' blinders!

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Originally Posted by pooleboy View Post
Burke would be dumb if he wants to win. Getting a top 5 pick and drafting a blue chip Center (galchenyuck, grig, forsberg) would benefit this team more than drafting an average player in the 8-12 range
Obviously..... except maybe not apparent to Leaf fans?

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Originally Posted by Dalton View Post
We could have been sellers at the deadline. Trading for all those first round picks Burke talked about. Maybe some prospects. Bring up some kids to fill the holes and get some valuable NHL playing time with the new coach.

Is that throwing games? No. Has anyone been fined for doing that? No. Accused of throwing games? No. Is it contrary to doing one's best to win games. No. It's a perfectly legitimate way of doing business. The Flyers and Ottawa did it recently.

What Edmonton is doing, I don't know. At some point they have to start building a team around their picks. Their apparent refusal to use methods other than the draft is just as poor a strategy as Burke's refusal to use the draft.

I agree Burke could not say anything other than what he did in answer to a lame question. More appropriate questions are "is it time for a rebuild?", "are the Leafs sellers?".
Why weren't they sellers? Bad contracts? Bad ego from Burke? When will Leaf fans FINALLY admit that Burke's been a failure? It's not just missing the playoffs 4 or 5 straight years!!!! It's that they have little to show for it. The Leafs' prospects aren't that good. They have a few but it should be worrisome that Burke's scouting staff that he apparently invested heavily in, is not getting the job done. They probably need to lower in the standings to improve their chances (with better draft position) which is why some fans want a full tank and blow the team up. Get some high draft picks and prospects. Make some trades.... that is, if they can do it despite the contracts of some of those players.

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Originally Posted by Pyromaniac3 View Post
Can someone explain what Burke has to do with this explosion? He did build this team but they were 6th in league after Jan after 4months of regular season. If anyone told me, that the Leafs would lose 14 games out of the next 16 games I would have punched you in the face.

I just want to know, after Jan before the slide started what could he have done? How the hell could he have seen this coming?
Maybe you should put the dukes at your side and cool off.

Fans who aren't wearing rosy colored glasses picked the Leafs to finish last or near last in the conference, myself included. I'm not shocked like some people.

They were overachieving at the start of the season like they usually do. They come back to earth near the end of the season. I guess there was one season they went on a good run of games but that's probably because other playoff teams they faced were resting players.

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03-14-2012, 07:52 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Durkin67 View Post
I actually pondered the same thing yesterday. Previous groups had to move futures for established assets to impact not only the club, but the acting management groups' employability. It may have come to that. Burke is in tough to justify his employment and without the acquisition of a legit franchise player regardless of the cost, he may be shown the door.

question is, who is that franchise player? do you have Nonis go after Luongo? Is VAN ready to thrust Schneider into the limelight? If Lou poops the bed in the playoffs again, it might be the case.

Or do you target a top flight forward? How long can a losing franchise like CAR afford Staal? Sure, they have cap, but they also have an internal budget...


I think the writing is on the wall. without consistent goaltending, this team goes nowhere. If you can't keep the puck from crossing your goal line, no superstar rookie is going to bail you out.

If Burke can land an impact player via trade (JVR is my best guess), move out some dead wood players, and do something about the goaltending, theres a chance he can salvage this thing next year...but the honeymoon is waaay over...time to make something happen...
Burke hung his hat on Phil Kessel as the franchise up front and Phaneuf as the franchise on the back. He then signed Reimer as the "real deal" between the pipes.

Maybe he will go and try to trade for another franchise like player. Somehow I doubt he will be able to pull it off. He is running out of assets to trade without completely destroying the team for another 7 years.

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03-14-2012, 07:57 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
Burke hung his hat on Phil Kessel as the franchise up front and Phaneuf as the franchise on the back. He then signed Reimer as the "real deal" between the pipes.

Maybe he will go and try to trade for another franchise like player. Somehow I doubt he will be able to pull it off. He is running out of assets to trade without completely destroying the team for another 7 years.
Actually I think he signed Komi to be the back end star first. I believe he expected them to be the backbone of Team USA with Wilson as coach.

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03-14-2012, 07:59 AM
  #62
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THe whole premise of this argument seems to be that draft picks equate to a better hockey club, because that has worked on occasion in small markets. It has also failed. And it doesn't work in big markets where the media rips you regardless of what you do during the process of repairing your franchise.


We use nifty catch words all the time like retool and rebuild. What this club has needed is REPAIR, from the bottom up. BB has managed to load up on some nice pieces, and to protect them from the media and fans. That bodes well for his successor should he be ousted before he needs to borrow from the future to salvage his gig and move the needle on this club.

He now needs to solidify the G position and add key pieces to that core group. Had he believed a Kadri or a Colborne was ready, he'd have graduated them at the deadline and shipped out Macarthur or similar and cashed in on a decent pick. Thats been his M.O. to date...that he hasn't, is telling. The kids aren't quite ready, and rather than whining on Twitter, they should be focused on winning a championship with the Marlies and building off of that for next season. Less yapping, Nazem, more squats, lunges and protein shakes. And give Roberts a call in the off season...

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03-14-2012, 08:03 AM
  #63
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Where is Galchenyuk in that ranking????
I'm guessing his injury meant he wasn't ranked.

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03-14-2012, 08:03 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
Burke hung his hat on Phil Kessel as the franchise up front and Phaneuf as the franchise on the back. He then signed Reimer as the "real deal" between the pipes.

Maybe he will go and try to trade for another franchise like player. Somehow I doubt he will be able to pull it off. He is running out of assets to trade without completely destroying the team for another 7 years.
I dunno...Schenn, a high first rounder,Franson (former first rounder) Kadri, Kulemin, Grabo...all pieces he can parlay into something valuable... and again, when Colborne graduates (I think he usurps Connolly next season personally), the outgoing player he replaces should yield a decent pick. Kaba, Versteeg, Beauchemin are all examples of this process.

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03-14-2012, 08:06 AM
  #65
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I dont think theres any GM in the league who would admit that he plans to tank.
Lots of GM's say they "rebuild"which is just a fancy way of saying tanking

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03-14-2012, 08:10 AM
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I dunno...Schenn, a high first rounder,Franson (former first rounder) Kadri, Kulemin, Grabo...all pieces he can parlay into something valuable... and again, when Colborne graduates (I think he usurps Connolly next season personally), the outgoing player he replaces should yield a decent pick. Kaba, Versteeg, Beauchemin are all examples of this process.
That's just chasing his tail though.

Burke needs to bottom out for several years. He missed the boat on that and now he is exposed and on the cusp of losing his job. Panic moves are the next step.

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03-14-2012, 08:16 AM
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...not letting Burke and Co. off the hook here as I believe they need to be better, but for a team that was apparently playoff bound to completely implode like this is ludicrous. The team needs to look inward. They are wildly inconsistent from game to game, and the compete level wanes far too easily and often. Last night was the first embarrassing game since Carlyle started. The goaltending was atrocious, and the turnovers and bobbles were unbearable to watch. The collective here wants to pin that on the guy that assembled what looked like a winning group. Burke showed his faith in them by keeping them intact, and by ousting the coach in order to give them a chance to dig in and get a job done. They let him, and us down. where is the accountability? Its easy to single out one entity and make him the scapegoat. And thats what is happening here. Is Burke immune to criticism? Hell no. But you can bet dollars to Burkie dogs that when he gives them a chance to get it done and gives them a vote of confidence at the deadline and they squander their opportunity, he will be ruthless in the off season. He did it before when the Stajan-Hagman clan and the Antropovs and the Ponikarovskis couldn't man up and deliver. He want let these guys off the hook either...

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03-14-2012, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
That's just chasing his tail though.

Burke needs to bottom out for several years. He missed the boat on that and now he is exposed and on the cusp of losing his job. Panic moves are the next step.
Again, bottoming out in Toronto and replacing a core group with kids isn't the model. You need established guys to do the heavy lifting and you graduate the kids when they are ready. Established young players are worth more to this franchise than high picks.

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03-14-2012, 08:19 AM
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...not letting Burke and Co. off the hook here as I believe they need to be better, but for a team that was apparently playoff bound to completely implode like this is ludicrous. The team needs to look inward. They are wildly inconsistent from game to game, and the compete level wanes far too easily and often. Last night was the first embarrassing game since Carlyle started. The goaltending was atrocious, and the turnovers and bobbles were unbearable to watch. The collective here wants to pin that on the guy that assembled what looked like a winning group. Burke showed his faith in them by keeping them intact, and by ousting the coach in order to give them a chance to dig in and get a job done. They let him, and us down. where is the accountability? Its easy to single out one entity and make him the scapegoat. And thats what is happening here. Is Burke immune to criticism? Hell no. But you can bet dollars to Burkie dogs that when he gives them a chance to get it done and gives them a vote of confidence at the deadline and they squander their opportunity, he will be ruthless in the off season. He did it before when the Stajan-Hagman clan and the Antropovs and the Ponikarovskis couldn't man up and deliver. He want let these guys off the hook either...
Okay so he will make a bunch of moves. Not proof that he can make the ones that create a winner. He is a massive failure.

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03-14-2012, 08:21 AM
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Okay so he will make a bunch of moves. Not proof that he can make the ones that create a winner. He is a massive failure.
pure conjecture. Hîs professional record also indicates otherwise. This team is a failure. And I doubt theres a GM in the game that could succeed where he 'failed'.

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03-14-2012, 08:21 AM
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Again, bottoming out in Toronto and replacing a core group with kids isn't the model. You need established guys to do the heavy lifting and you graduate the kids when they are ready. Established young players are worth more to this franchise than high picks.
The vast majority of established young players were high picks. I suppose they can keep trying the same thing year after year but why now do something different?

The Leafs are on the cusp of another major down period and they never even got off the ground in the rebuild. Change is required.

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03-14-2012, 08:23 AM
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pure conjecture. Hîs professional record also indicates otherwise. This team is a failure. And I doubt theres a GM in the game that could succeed where he 'failed'.
Conjecture? Look at the standings and results over the last four years. Not conjecture there sir. I suppose they could win the next 12 games and change that.

I doubt there is a GM that could have done worse.

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03-14-2012, 08:24 AM
  #73
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Burke and Co. have already written the season off and WANT a top 5 pick, knowing full well that the trade market simply cannot accommodate their desire for a top center. Burke brought in Carlyle to help facilitate this process all the while taking the pressure off the coach and placing it directly on himself (which is, in his opinion, bearable). Don't be surprised if the (internal) motto for the team right now is go out there and try, but lose all the games you can.

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03-14-2012, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by The Don Draper View Post
Burke and Co. have already written the season off and WANT a top 5 pick, knowing full well that the trade market simply cannot accommodate their desire for a top center. Burke brought in Carlyle to help facilitate this process all the while taking the pressure off the coach and placing it directly on himself (which is, in his opinion, bearable). Don't be surprised if the (internal) motto for the team right now is go out there and try, but lose all the games you can.
Burke has stated otherwise. I think this is letting him off the hook and giving him credit for the results of a failure.

All the positives that come from a lottery pick are purely accidental luck and Brian Burke deserves zero credit for that.

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03-14-2012, 08:31 AM
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Conjecture? Look at the standings and results over the last four years. Not conjecture there sir. I suppose they could win the next 12 games and change that.

I doubt there is a GM that could have done worse.

Calling Burke a failure is pure conjecture. An unsubstantiated remark used to bolder a personal position. YES, the GROUP has failed. BUt Burke is also the guy that landed cornerstone pieces like Gardiner and potentially Colbourne for non producers like Kaba and Beauchemin. He brought in Ashton and Frattin, who show a ton of jam and some serious skill. Bozak has been solid and redeemed himself after a lacklustre year. And without Gus, there was never any talk about playoffs this year.

That a proven success like Burke has found Toronto to be the toughest challenge of his pro career truly indicates what a mess of a club we really have here.

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