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The Official Ex-Habs Thread Part IV (All Former Habs Players Discussed Here!)

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Old
03-13-2012, 02:50 PM
  #351
Lafleurs Guy
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Yes, I said we needed to change our team. I did also want Markov to be the next Captain, and repeatedly said we should be patient to see where these changes lead us.
I was quite clear that I had no idea how things would unfold. Some decisions were good, others I had my doubts on. I also was aware that you keep adapting as seasons go by, and I assumed we were going to make the proper adjustments as the years went by. Well, I was definitely wrong about that.
But, to be fair, I don't think we ever truly got to see the potential of this assembled group. We missed our best player for the most part, and had numerous injuries over the years.

The mistake I made was trust management more than I should have. But Gainey left, and Gauthier took over. He had his hands tied up so I felt I should give him a pass as he would get a lot more free space the following year. The decisions he opted to take last summer as well as some of the trades made this year are simply inexcusable.
Okay that's fair.
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The thing with these two guys is that they weren't traded for the right reasons. They were still producing adequately. Ribs was a top 2 center and producing like one, and Lats was one of our most productive guy at ES with bottom 6 minutes. They were let go because of ''attitude'' problems. Now, we just got jacked over the Ribs deal, that can happen, but for Lats, we went after another ''attitude problem'' guy, and one that had proven a lot less than Lats. Just made no sense. Same thing with bringing Bourque here.

But yes, as you said, I would still be able to let it go if we were only talking about these couple of times. Unfortunately, it happened a scary number of times.
Ribs, I really am happy we left by the side of the road. He was dumped like roadkill and he's the only Hab I ever hated. Absolute garbage and the little show he put on last week showed that he hasn't changed.

As for Lats, you might have a point. He obviously produced for Minny while he was healthy and Pouliott didn't do a whole lot here. Whitesnake has pointed to us giving up on players far too easily and it's tough to argue this point looking at it now. As much as I felt that trade could work out for us it's hard to justify it now. We don't know what happened behind closed doors. Maybe Lats' attitude was terrible but WS is right, we've got to start being more patient with some of these guys. It may seem like the right move at the time but down the road it kills you.

Streit I thought was asking for too much cash after one great season. We gave him up and he turned out to be a really strong blueliner. SK I had heard was involved in some bad stuff so we gave him up...

We really do have a bad record of just letting guys go. Sooner or later it catches up to you and it's caught up to us now. AK was just... sad. I just don't get what we were doing with him. Last year AK and Pleks were on fire together so... Martin breaks them up. This year AK gets little to no icetime and when he does seem to show some chemistry with Eller, we break them up.

When I look at the team through his eyes we must be the most disfunctional team in the league. Why did we screw around with that guy the way we did? I know he wasn't consistent and I know he never lived up to the hype but for Pete's sake man, he's still a good player and we flushed him for nothing. I haven't seen a player that badly managed since Perezhogin.

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03-13-2012, 03:34 PM
  #352
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Ribs, I really am happy we left by the side of the road. He was dumped like roadkill and he's the only Hab I ever hated. Absolute garbage and the little show he put on last week showed that he hasn't changed.

As for Lats, you might have a point. He obviously produced for Minny while he was healthy and Pouliott didn't do a whole lot here. Whitesnake has pointed to us giving up on players far too easily and it's tough to argue this point looking at it now. As much as I felt that trade could work out for us it's hard to justify it now. We don't know what happened behind closed doors. Maybe Lats' attitude was terrible but WS is right, we've got to start being more patient with some of these guys. It may seem like the right move at the time but down the road it kills you.

Streit I thought was asking for too much cash after one great season. We gave him up and he turned out to be a really strong blueliner. SK I had heard was involved in some bad stuff so we gave him up...

We really do have a bad record of just letting guys go. Sooner or later it catches up to you and it's caught up to us now. AK was just... sad. I just don't get what we were doing with him. Last year AK and Pleks were on fire together so... Martin breaks them up. This year AK gets little to no icetime and when he does seem to show some chemistry with Eller, we break them up.

When I look at the team through his eyes we must be the most disfunctional team in the league. Why did we screw around with that guy the way we did? I know he wasn't consistent and I know he never lived up to the hype but for Pete's sake man, he's still a good player and we flushed him for nothing. I haven't seen a player that badly managed since Perezhogin.
I think it's true that management lacks patience with certain players. I think this is true when we look at guys like Lappy, D'Agostini and O'Byrne. But at least we got some return for them, Bournival is interesting, but we can all agree that O'Byrne on our back end would have been very appreciated this year. As for Palushaj, I think he needs to be in Hamilton perfecting his game rather than being useless next to Gomez here.
This is the biggest flaw with our management imo. I really hate it when we call up top6 potential guys for long period of times, and make them play on the bottom lines with very little ice time. I don't know in what world this actually helps their development. I can somewhat understand it if it's just for a couple games, so the kid can see what the NHL is, but we do it all the time. It's retarded imo, and MaxPac confirmed it last year when he publicly came out to say it.

But to get back on the subject, I think PG is a man without any patience at all. O'Byrne went to see him to ask what his role would be because we were carrying 8 Dmen, and the next day he gets traded. Same thing with Lappy. Possibly Cammy as well. He seems far too reactionary which is probably the worst attitude a GM can have.

Outside the lack of patience however, there's also a very clear indication that we simply do not know how to handle ''attitude'' problem players. We just ship them out.
As I said in a previous post, Bill Clinton said it best when speaking of Nolan Richardson, the coach that lead the Arkansas Razorbacks to their 94 NCAA Championship, ''you need to be able to look at every one of your guys and know exactly what to tell them individually in order to get the best out of them''. I'm paraphrasing because I heard it on TV, but it's pretty much the basis of his thought.
I don't think we have this kind of leadership. Not behind the bench, nor upstairs.
Gainey seemed to have some interest for it, a good proof of it was when he tried to talk with SK and settle things down. But he should have settled Martin down more so than SK because the latter one shouldn't even have been sent down in the first place. In any event, we really have nothing to make us believe we can handle our own ''trouble'' players. So what's the point in getting some from other teams, like Pouliot or Bourque? Chances are we won't be able to do much with them either, so we'll lower their value even more, and end up either losing them for nothing or trading them for a crap return.

Jesus, we really need to change things. This vicious cycle has been going around for too long now. I don't see how anybody can think this will change under the same management. We need a house cleaning ASAP, I really hope Molson isn't a dumb owner.

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03-13-2012, 03:45 PM
  #353
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[QUOTE=Kriss E;46003205]I think it's true that management lacks patience with certain players. I think this is true when we look at guys like Lappy, D'Agostini and O'Byrne. But at least we got some return for them, Bournival is interesting, but we can all agree that O'Byrne on our back end would have been very appreciated this year. As for Palushaj, I think he needs to be in Hamilton perfecting his game rather than being useless next to Gomez here.
This is the biggest flaw with our management imo. I really hate it when we call up top6 potential guys for long period of times, and make them play on the bottom lines with very little ice time. I don't know in what world this actually helps their development. I can somewhat understand it if it's just for a couple games, so the kid can see what the NHL is, but we do it all the time. It's retarded imo, and MaxPac confirmed it last year when he publicly came out to say it.

But to get back on the subject, I think PG is a man without any patience at all. O'Byrne went to see him to ask what his role would be because we were carrying 8 Dmen, and the next day he gets traded. Same thing with Lappy. Possibly Cammy as well. He seems far too reactionary which is probably the worst attitude a GM can have.

Outside the lack of patience however, there's also a very clear indication that we simply do not know how to handle ''attitude'' problem players. We just ship them out.
As I said in a previous post, Bill Clinton said it best when speaking of Nolan Richardson, the coach that lead the Arkansas Razorbacks to their 94 NCAA Championship, ''you need to be able to look at every one of your guys and know exactly what to tell them individually in order to get the best out of them''. I'm paraphrasing because I heard it on TV, but it's pretty much the basis of his thought.
I don't think we have this kind of leadership. Not behind the bench, nor upstairs.
Gainey seemed to have some interest for it, a good proof of it was when he tried to talk with SK and settle things down. But he should have settled Martin down more so than SK because the latter one shouldn't even have been sent down in the first place. In any event, we really have nothing to make us believe we can handle our own ''trouble'' players. So what's the point in getting some from other teams, like Pouliot or Bourque? Chances are we won't be able to do much with them either, so we'll lower their value even more, and end up either losing them for nothing or trading them for a crap return.

Jesus, we really need to change things. This vicious cycle has been going around for too long now. I don't see how anybody can think this will change under the same management. We need a house cleaning ASAP, I really hope Molson isn't a dumb owner.[/QUOTE]

$$$ talks. And soon enough, Mr Molson will have a rude wake up call.

If he really wants to keep Gainey , Gauthier and Gomez, he can put them on beer delivery trucks for the rest of their contracts.....

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Old
03-14-2012, 10:40 PM
  #354
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halak

Im a rangers fan and was jusr looking at the standings and seen how blues are number one. i understand brian elliot is playing great too but why did you guys get rid of him and also didnt halak lead montreal far in the playoffs

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03-14-2012, 10:42 PM
  #355
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^ we got rid of him because Price is better. End of discussion really.

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03-14-2012, 10:45 PM
  #356
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Im a rangers fan and was jusr looking at the standings and seen how blues are number one. i understand brian elliot is playing great too but why did you guys get rid of him and also didnt halak lead montreal far in the playoffs
Management felt Price was better. The town wasn't big enough for the two of them so we made a choice. Personally, I think we chose wisely.

I don't think we got enough return for Halak but it's early to call that one a loss.

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03-14-2012, 11:26 PM
  #357
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Management felt Price was better. The town wasn't big enough for the two of them so we made a choice. Personally, I think we chose wisely.

I don't think we got enough return for Halak but it's early to call that one a loss.
Really?

Aren't you always suggesting building through talented youth?

They got a 13th overall draft pick two years after the draft who was progressing well (i.e. better value than a 13th overall). That is as good as any goalie has obtained in a trade in a long time. Simeon Varlamov looks to be worth slightly less value, for example, though admittedly Washington rolled the dice hoping for a top-5.

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03-14-2012, 11:34 PM
  #358
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Management felt Price was better. The town wasn't big enough for the two of them so we made a choice. Personally, I think we chose wisely.

I don't think we got enough return for Halak but it's early to call that one a loss.
I really don't think we could have gotten more for him. We got the exact retribution we would have had had the Blues signed him to an offer sheet.
The market for goalies wasn't and still isn't very good. At the very least, I think it was a fair deal.

All that being said, I think Eller would have been playing much better had he stayed in St-Louis or moved somewhere else. I think the kid is just too good in order not to develop into a strong player, but we aren't doing a great job with him.
That being said, I still believe he will become a very strong player for us.

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03-14-2012, 11:46 PM
  #359
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Really?

Aren't you always suggesting building through talented youth?

They got a 13th overall draft pick two years after the draft who was progressing well (i.e. better value than a 13th overall). That is as good as any goalie has obtained in a trade in a long time. Simeon Varlamov looks to be worth slightly less value, for example, though admittedly Washington rolled the dice hoping for a top-5.
I do believe in building via youth and I haven't been overly critical of PG's move here. I think he picked the right goalie to trade and he dealt for a pick he believed in. To me, that's cool. I just thought we could've gotten a better prospect than a guy projected to be at best a 2nd line center.
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I really don't think we could have gotten more for him. We got the exact retribution we would have had had the Blues signed him to an offer sheet.
The market for goalies wasn't and still isn't very good. At the very least, I think it was a fair deal.

All that being said, I think Eller would have been playing much better had he stayed in St-Louis or moved somewhere else. I think the kid is just too good in order not to develop into a strong player, but we aren't doing a great job with him.
That being said, I still believe he will become a very strong player for us.
And you could very well be right. I just get the feeling like we didn't shop Halak around very much. We dealt him at his absolute peak value and I felt like we could've gotten more for him.

On the flipside though PG did what I've advocated and traded for a prospect. As far as I'm concerned he deserves double credit for this move. First, he dealt away Halak in spite of the pressure against him to do this. Secondly, he dealt for a prospect he believed in.

That's not something I'm going to criticize him for. As I've posted here many times, it was one of the reasons I had some faith in him as our GM coming into this season. It took real courage to trade Halak for a prospect and that deserves recognition. Even if the trade doesn't work out, I support the fact that it was a long term deal on a prospect he believed in.

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03-15-2012, 03:31 AM
  #360
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Im a rangers fan and was jusr looking at the standings and seen how blues are number one. i understand brian elliot is playing great too but why did you guys get rid of him and also didnt halak lead montreal far in the playoffs
I highly doubt Halak or any goalie in the league for that matter, could have helped this team how they are playing this season. You can't win with just 1 scoring line.

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03-15-2012, 11:58 PM
  #361
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^ we got rid of him because Price is better. End of discussion really.
If both mens career ended tonight.Halak would be the guy who had the better career between them.

Unfortunately,I disagree with your comment.maybe one day he MIGHT be better but right now Halak has proven more then Price.

Stick around for the playoff's,I have a feeling Halak is going to prove his worth once again this off season.

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03-16-2012, 09:41 AM
  #362
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Look at the numbers Elliot is putting up. That alone should say that both goalies are benefitting from the system the Blues are playing. Price is a better goalie, and I'm thrilled to have Eller.

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03-16-2012, 10:07 AM
  #363
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If both mens career ended tonight.Halak would be the guy who had the better career between them.

Unfortunately,I disagree with your comment.maybe one day he MIGHT be better but right now Halak has proven more then Price.

Stick around for the playoff's,I have a feeling Halak is going to prove his worth once again this off season.

If I have to choose a goalie that will play 70 games+ in a season for the next 10 years, it will be Price. Yes Halak is dominant with the Blues this season but so is Elliot. They are both benefiting from the Hitchcock's system and splitting the workload.

Before Hitchcock took over the team, Halak had a 0,850 of save % in 7 games. The next 34 games with Hitchcock, his SV% is 0,930.

I'm not saying Halak is not good or anything, he's just in the better situation than Price right now. Halak is in his 6th season in the NHL but has yet played more than 60 games a season like a real 1st goalie should. I see him as a really good goalie in the league but I will give even more credits when he will play 65-70 games in a season and stay as sharp in the playoffs.

As for this year, with the way Hitchcock is using his goalies, I can see Halak pull a similar performance to 09-10 playoffs with the Habs since he only have about 55-60 games played.

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03-16-2012, 03:00 PM
  #364
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Look at the numbers Elliot is putting up. That alone should say that both goalies are benefitting from the system the Blues are playing. Price is a better goalie, and I'm thrilled to have Eller.
You didn't even watch the Blues play more then 5 games this season and your making a bold statement like that.Do yourself a favor and watch the actual game.Just this week Jaroslav robbed 3 points for them.I guess he shouldn't have received the NHL third star of the week...they should have given it to Hitchcock's system

The system is helping him a bit but even whitout it he would be putting similar numbers.he's on fire right now.Elliot is going great too and it's not because of Hitchcock,I find this insulting for him,this guys career was done,he worked hard in training camp and deserve his spot on the team.He created his own chance and he deserves credit for the great job he has done.


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03-16-2012, 03:04 PM
  #365
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Halak is the best backup in the league.

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03-16-2012, 03:13 PM
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You didn't even watch the Blues play more then 5 games this season and your making a bold statement like that.Do yourself a favor and watch the actual game.Just this week Jaroslav robbed 3 points for them.I guess he shouldn't have received the NHL third star of the week...they should have given it to Hitchcock's system

The system is helping him a bit but even whitout it he would be putting similar numbers.he's on fire right now.Elliot is going great too and it's not because of Hitchcock,I find this insulting for him,this guys career was done,he worked hard in training camp and deserve his spot on the team.He created his own chance and he deserves credit for the great job he has done.
Hitchcock is not a new coach in the league. If you've been watching hockey for a while, then you know exactly what he's about.
And nobody said Halak wasn't good. He plays his part. You don't have to be a genius to figure out goalies benefit from defensive systems.

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03-16-2012, 03:29 PM
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Hitchcock is not a new coach in the league. If you've been watching hockey for a while, then you know exactly what he's about.
And nobody said Halak wasn't good. He plays his part. You don't have to be a genius to figure out goalies benefit from defensive systems.
Yes Hitch has a great history of making his goalies look good and like I said it's helping Jaro but to put it as the main reason for his success is plain crazy.

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03-16-2012, 03:41 PM
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Yes Hitch has a great history of making his goalies look good and like I said it's helping Jaro but to put it as the main reason for his success is plain crazy.
It really isn't all that crazy.

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03-16-2012, 04:03 PM
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You didn't even watch the Blues play more then 5 games this season and your making a bold statement like that.Do yourself a favor and watch the actual game.Just this week Jaroslav robbed 3 points for them.I guess he shouldn't have received the NHL third star of the week...they should have given it to Hitchcock's system

The system is helping him a bit but even whitout it he would be putting similar numbers.he's on fire right now.Elliot is going great too and it's not because of Hitchcock,I find this insulting for him,this guys career was done,he worked hard in training camp and deserve his spot on the team.He created his own chance and he deserves credit for the great job he has done.
A quick look at Halak's stats show otherwise though. His stats in his first 7 games of the season+last season is quite different with his stats with Hitchcock and the new system.

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03-16-2012, 04:18 PM
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It really isn't all that crazy.
Saying the main reason for his success is because of Hitchcock is crazy,like if the guy didn't prove anything in the past.

Hitchcock is helping but like I said he would still have some good stats afterall Davis Payne was also a defensive oriented coach.

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A quick look at Halak's stats show otherwise though. His stats in his first 7 games of the season+last season is quite different with his stats with Hitchcock and the new system.
The guy was burning the league the first 2 months last year.The Blues was a dominant team during that period.Then half the team got injured.Halak also played injured during the month of January before being put in IR for a hand injury,during that time the team had lost all it's momentum.When he came back he finished the year strong just like he started.If Halak wasn't injured and had either Oshie or Perron still playing,the Blues would have probably made the post-season.

I admit he wasn't at his peak during the first 6 games of the season but Halak was already starting to play some solid hockey when Davis Payne was still around.People think that it's Hitchcock that saved his season,it's BS...he was already starting to show some signs before the firing.

When Halak was on fire during the 09-10 season,I don't think I remember people screaming Ahhh it's because of Jacques Martin's system!! New Jersey played the trap for years but nobody ever said that Martin Brodeur wouldn't be that good whitout it.

Halak is burning the league right now,the system is helping him but even whitout it,he would be having a great year.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 03-16-2012 at 05:18 PM. Reason: merge
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03-16-2012, 05:04 PM
  #371
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The guy was burning the league the first 2 months last year.The Blues was a dominant team during that period.Then half the team got injured.Halak also played injured during the month of January before being put in IR for a hand injury,during that time the team had lost all it's momentum.When he came back he finished the year strong just like he started.If Halak wasn't injured and had either Oshie or Perron still playing,the Blues would have probably made the post-season.

I admit he wasn't at his peak during the first 6 games of the season but Halak was already starting to play some solid hockey when Davis Payne was still around.People think that it's Hitchcock that saved his season,it's BS...he was already starting to show some signs before the firing.

When Halak was on fire during the 09-10 season,I don't think I remember people screaming Ahhh it's because of Jacques Martin's system!! New Jersey played the trap for years but nobody ever said that Martin Brodeur wouldn't be that good whitout it.

Halak is burning the league right now,the system is helping him but even whitout it,he would be having a great year.
are you under a rock. There are a lot of people who believe Brodeur benefited substantially under that system.

The thing that will always be a detriment to what Halak brings is that he hasnt shown capable of playing 60-70 games a year. Its a fact. He will get a lot more recognition if he shows he is a number one instead of splitting the duties. Its harder to maintain the level of 30 great games a year to someone who needs to be great for 60+ games a year.

Also, Halak has been great but he has also put up the numbers versus worse teams than even his teammate.

Based on todays standings, you would have Elliot playing 21 games against playoff teams in just 33 games while you have Halak playing only 17 games against playoff teams in 41 games.

Like I said Halak has played very well this year, but it nice to see him to actually play a full season where he is the main man facing all the playoff calibre teams


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03-16-2012, 05:10 PM
  #372
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Hitchcock is not a new coach in the league. If you've been watching hockey for a while, then you know exactly what he's about.
And nobody said Halak wasn't good. He plays his part. You don't have to be a genius to figure out goalies benefit from defensive systems.
"his part" is being one of the most exciting and effective #1 goaltenders in the NHL

Like he was in Montreal, when he was playing behind one of the worst defensive systems in the league.

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03-16-2012, 05:48 PM
  #373
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
"his part" is being one of the most exciting and effective #1 goaltenders in the NHL

Like he was in Montreal, when he was playing behind one of the worst defensive systems in the league.
I'd rather have Elliot.

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03-16-2012, 05:55 PM
  #374
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
"his part" is being one of the most exciting and effective #1 goaltenders in the NHL

Like he was in Montreal, when he was playing behind one of the worst defensive systems in the league.
What's that? Agnostic high on Halak?

Damn, what else is new?

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03-16-2012, 05:58 PM
  #375
Andy
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Price plays behind a good Montreal team last season and his numbers were excellent and much better than Halak's who played behind a lesser St.Louis squad.

Halak plays behind a great St.Louis team and his numbers are excellent and much better than Price who is playing behind a lesser Montreal team.

Wow, what a controversy!

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