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03-14-2012, 12:42 PM
  #1
jmg27
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Secondary Scoring

Just was looking as some stats and this just blew my mind. I mean I of course knew that there was a lack of production but I just didnt realize that (outside of the first line of JT, MM, and PAP) how insanely low the point totals actually are. And this coming with absolutely NO production at all from the 4th line. I know stats are not everything but these stats are just mind boggling for 4 guys that are being relied upon for secondary scoring on 2nd and 3rd line:


Kyle Okposo – 15 goals / 20 assists for 35 points in 67 games ( -19 )
Frans Nielsen – 13 goals / 21 assists for 34 points in 70 games ( - 9)
Michael Grabner – 15 goals / 10 assists for 25 points in 66 games (-17)
Josh Bailey – 10 goals / 9 assists for 19 points ( - 14)

I know this has been discussed at length but what is the #1 main reason. Is this lack of correct development, coaching, management, talent? I mean I guess its all of the above but loved to hear your comments.

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03-14-2012, 12:48 PM
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seafoam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg27 View Post
Just was looking as some stats and this just blew my mind. I mean I of course knew that there was a lack of production but I just didnt realize that (outside of the first line of JT, MM, and PAP) how insanely low the point totals actually are. And this coming with absolutely NO production at all from the 4th line. I know stats are not everything but these stats are just mind boggling for 4 guys that are being relied upon for secondary scoring on 2nd and 3rd line:


Kyle Okposo 15 goals / 20 assists for 35 points in 67 games ( -19 )
Frans Nielsen 13 goals / 21 assists for 34 points in 70 games ( - 9)
Michael Grabner 15 goals / 10 assists for 25 points in 66 games (-17)
Josh Bailey 10 goals / 9 assists for 19 points ( - 14)

I know this has been discussed at length but what is the #1 main reason. Is this lack of correct development, coaching, management, talent? I mean I guess its all of the above but loved to hear your comments.
1.) Lack of coaching, Thompson should be the next coach, he get's his team prepared to play and they play hard and disciplined. He would whip KO and Grabs into shape. Bailey is actually my favorite foward out of the Frans, Grabs, KO, Bails foursome. He hasn't been playing with competent line mates. Frans is just a third line center, that is all.

2.) Lack of offensive defensmen. I cringe every time I see Staios, Jurcina, or Eaton dump the puck and attempt to chip it up to the fowards or some other ********.

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03-14-2012, 01:24 PM
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Biggest reason Isles arent in a playoff spot IMO. Those 4 guys were no shows this year offensively.

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03-14-2012, 01:35 PM
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I was going to start a thread on something similar, who has disappointed you and who has done a good/great job for 2011/12. I would have listed those above as disappointments.

I would have listed Tavares/Moulson/Parenteau as those who did a good/great job.

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03-14-2012, 01:42 PM
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To answer the OP's question about "why" secondary scoring was so bad, I'd put it down to two main things that go hand in hand with one another:

1-Snow's inability to bring in veteran talent that can actually help in the scoring department. Rolston, Reasoner, and Pandolfo were never going to give the Isles veteran scoring options.

The guys Snow brought in were fringe players, guys who at best, would have bolstered the Isles bottom six, and at worst (as has been the case), didn't even really accomplish even that much.

2-Because of #1, players who aren't offensive weapons, or who aren't ready to be relied on as offensive weapons, were placed in positions where they were counted on to produce at a level they are able to.

Guys like Bailey and Okposo needed to be 20+ goal, 50 point guys because Snow didn't bring in any veterans who could produce those numbers, but neither were ready or capable of doing so.

Also, relying on Nielsen, who is the ideal 3rd line center with limited offensive upside, to be your team's regular 2nd line scoring center was a big mistake.

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03-14-2012, 01:50 PM
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I wouldn't say anyone's underachieved, based on history. Isles fans would have LIKED to see better seasons out of Bailey, Okposo, Grabner and Nielsen - but based on history, they are pretty much in-line with what they've historically produced, give or take.

Moulson's had a nice season, on par with the past two. Parenteau's been much better than anyone could have expected. Tavares is a top ten NHL player (probably higher) and that's something I didn't expect this year - and I've been very bullish on Tavares since he played his first game as an Islander.

The incredible lack of production from Comeau, Reasoner, Rolston, Niederreiter, Pandolfo has been a huge disappointment - but these would not have been game-changers this season.

The defense has been much healthier than last year but equally horrid. Gervais, Hillen, Katic, Wishart, Reese, Staios, Mottau, Eaton, Jurcina....pretty much players who make you hold your breath when they're out there, with or without the puck. Hardly players you want on the ice against any opponent's better players. Isles are filled with such players.

The goaltending has been MUCH better than expected. Nabby, especially. And many of Isles fans are ecstatic that DiPietro wasn't around (though some of us believe that he was never the problem, despite what many suggest)

This is simply a really bad team, they lack depth, talent, experience, speed and size.

They are filled with has-beens and never-beens.

It shows on the ice, in close games, in third period leads and in the standings.

I hope they win the lottery this year. They need it arguably as much as Columbus.

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03-14-2012, 02:05 PM
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Spend too much time in their own end. Is there a stat for zone time? I would love to see it. I would be surprised if it wasnt 60/15/25 5-on-5 zone time percentage for Defensive/Neutral/Offensive respectively. No decent puck movers and backchecking dmen to gain possesion and move the puck out of the defensive zone. Secondary scorers, especially young ones that are heavily relied on, would need a little momentum I would think and to have some energy left in the tank once they gain the zone. JT is the exception because you just can't stop that kid. He drives his entire line. So therefore, improve the d and you will see the o. That is my theory anyways.

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03-14-2012, 02:07 PM
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we are also one of two or 3 teams with two 30 goal Scorers

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03-14-2012, 03:12 PM
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Secondary Scoring, Whats that?

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03-14-2012, 03:53 PM
  #10
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This has been a HUGE problem all year, and IMO the biggest reason we are sitting in the bottom of the league.

Bailey should absolutely be on the wing, preferably next to Tavares. Bailey has shown he can produce on the wings, and he struggles offensively as a center.

Okposo needs a coach that will rip him apart, when that happens Okposo will flourish.

I would trade Grabner for a defenseman that can move the puck.

We need to trade/sign a good #2 center that can produce ~55 points, and contribute offensively.

A real coach would change our defensive system up, we have 3 guys that have the ability to move the puck from the back end, yet we haven't seen it this year. Our transition game is an absolute disaster.


Bailey and Nielsen would be good players in their proper roles. Grabner and Okposo need a coach to kick them in the ***

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03-14-2012, 04:26 PM
  #11
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To stress your point even more, half of Okposo's points came when he was playing on the top line with Tavares... Without that limited time of playing with Tavares, Okposo's stats would be even more pathetic.

It's Tavares, and everyone else.

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03-14-2012, 04:33 PM
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Imagine if we had 1 goal a game more from ANY of those players listed the position we would be in.

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03-14-2012, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by PaStromey View Post
1.) Lack of coaching, Thompson should be the next coach, he get's his team prepared to play and they play hard and disciplined. He would whip KO and Grabs into shape. Bailey is actually my favorite foward out of the Frans, Grabs, KO, Bails foursome. He hasn't been playing with competent line mates. Frans is just a third line center, that is all.

2.) Lack of offensive defensmen. I cringe every time I see Staios, Jurcina, or Eaton dump the puck and attempt to chip it up to the fowards or some other ********.
I agree with the sentiment of 1, but don't want another AHL guy. We need a guy that has done it before at this level, but does the same things.

Additionally, while I don't necessarily expect the goal scoring out of KO, I do expect the incredibly "sticky stick" he had prior to his shoulder injury. The guy was a takeaway machine and was really good at protecting the puck. Haven't seen nearly as much of that this year.

I think Bailey will flourish. Playing with better linemates and building up some confidence would help.

Frans is what he is. Good defensively but asking him to the the 2C is too much.

Grabs needs to focus more. But I wouldn't want to give up on that speed just yet. The league adjusted to him and he didn't adjust.

Personally, I put all these things mostly on the coach. It's his job to help these guys get to the next level and figure out how to adjust their games.

That's why it ****ing called "coaching" and not "saying who goes over the boards when". Although he's not really good at that either.


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03-15-2012, 05:53 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg27 View Post
Just was looking as some stats and this just blew my mind. I mean I of course knew that there was a lack of production but I just didnt realize that (outside of the first line of JT, MM, and PAP) how insanely low the point totals actually are. And this coming with absolutely NO production at all from the 4th line. I know stats are not everything but these stats are just mind boggling for 4 guys that are being relied upon for secondary scoring on 2nd and 3rd line:


Kyle Okposo 15 goals / 20 assists for 35 points in 67 games ( -19 )
Frans Nielsen 13 goals / 21 assists for 34 points in 70 games ( - 9)
Michael Grabner 15 goals / 10 assists for 25 points in 66 games (-17)
Josh Bailey 10 goals / 9 assists for 19 points ( - 14)

I know this has been discussed at length but what is the #1 main reason. Is this lack of correct development, coaching, management, talent? I mean I guess its all of the above but loved to hear your comments.
Which proves why we will again draft a forward this year with the first pick. If we are picking around 5 I expect to hear one name only:

"With the 5th pick of the first round the NY Islanders are proud to select, from the Sarnia Sting, Alex Galchenyuk"

As for the reason the secondary scoring is so weak its because the players you cited above ALL have flaws in their game that keep them from being bigger scorers. Nielsen has maxed out on his offensive potential and was never a big offensive threat. Bailey was drafted as a center who looked pass first, shot second. WHICH IS HOW HE PLAYS. Okposo was a high pick because his DRAFT YEAR SUCKED. Grabner didn't break into either Vancouver's or Florida's lineup because he was inconsistent, WHICH HE IS WITH US.

Any questions?

Our true second line of the future, of Strome, Nelson and Galchenyuk if picked, is still not in the NHL yet. When they arrive you will see the difference in the team's record.

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03-15-2012, 08:19 AM
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Just so that people know what the Okposo draft was, after he was drafted at 7 the following picks were made:

8 Peter Mueller (Center)
9 James Sheppard (C/LW)
10 Michael Frolik (Right Wing)
11 Jonathan Bernier (Goaltender)
12 Bryan Little (Center)
13 Jiri Tlusty (Left Wing)
14 Michael Grabner (Right Wing)
15 Riku Helenius (Goaltender)
16 Ty Wishart (Defense)
17 Trevor Lewis (Center)
18 Chris Stewart (Right Wing)
19 Mark Mitera (Defense)
20 David Fischer (Defense)
21 Bob Sanguinetti (Defense)

Pretty brutal! At least Claude Giroux went at 22.

Another interesting note about that draft. After we picked Robin Figren at 70 the next two players picked were Brad Marchand and Cal Clutterbuck! Nice to have on our third line huh? And those were the impact players in the third round. At least we got A-Mac in the 6th round. When you read through that entire draft it might have had less impact players come out of it than ANY other draft. The Top 5 was great, and a few gems in round two (Lucic, Anisimov and Kulemin).

After Round 3 you can count the number of NHL players drafted on ONE HAND! That is unheard of.

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Old
03-15-2012, 08:58 AM
  #16
OlTimeHockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg27 View Post
Just was looking as some stats and this just blew my mind. I mean I of course knew that there was a lack of production but I just didnt realize that (outside of the first line of JT, MM, and PAP) how insanely low the point totals actually are. And this coming with absolutely NO production at all from the 4th line. I know stats are not everything but these stats are just mind boggling for 4 guys that are being relied upon for secondary scoring on 2nd and 3rd line:


Kyle Okposo 15 goals / 20 assists for 35 points in 67 games ( -19 )
Frans Nielsen 13 goals / 21 assists for 34 points in 70 games ( - 9)
Michael Grabner 15 goals / 10 assists for 25 points in 66 games (-17)
Josh Bailey 10 goals / 9 assists for 19 points ( - 14)

I know this has been discussed at length but what is the #1 main reason. Is this lack of correct development, coaching, management, talent? I mean I guess its all of the above but loved to hear your comments.
-19
-9 (our defensive ace)
-17
-14

Two words: DEE FENCE

If we had KJ, Aucoin, Hamrlik and Hamonic, AMac and Streit, we have far more scoring and are in the playoffs.

This would be ludicrous, but just one more solid top two and no Mottau and we're in the hunt IMHO.

But then we'd better coaching, not this chowder brigade.

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Old
03-15-2012, 12:06 PM
  #17
Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by leeroggy View Post
"With the 5th pick of the first round the NY Islanders are proud to select, from the Sarnia Sting, Alex Galchenyuk"
I would have no problem with that.

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Old
03-15-2012, 12:22 PM
  #18
JJmcD
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There are so many possible answers to your question it's not even funny (seriously, it makes me want to cry).

The Islanders are a team full of question marks, and the entire team is run on the "if...then" basis. For example, "if Grabner finished half his break-aways, then he would have 30+ goals". Seems logical, right? But, what if the example was "if we had a different owner, then we would have a play-off caliber team". Again, this is a logical, true statement - but is it happening? No.

At some point, the excuses need to stop. Islanders management needs to make something happen. When a team signs a Pandolfo, a Mottau, a reasoner, a rolston, and so on, then the team is not being pro-active and trying to turn a losing team into a playoff team. The pickups the Islanders signed in the off-season shows that their mindset was "well, if the Islanders core played like they played in the second half of last season, then we have enough to make the playoffs".

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