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Old
03-15-2012, 11:12 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by steve1873 View Post
Calling a Leaf fan an eternal pessimist is like blaming Charlie Brown for not kicking the ball one more time.
It's actually nothing like that. But at least Charlie Brown doesn't whine and complain and give up.

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03-15-2012, 11:19 AM
  #77
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24th. place team.


Doesn't take a lot of work to see all the problems on the Leafs.


Hopefully Burke turns it around to shut these guys up, but right now easy pickings.

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03-15-2012, 11:20 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Jerkini View Post
High priced free agents aren't the problem. It's the high priced, second rate free agents that are killing us. We consistently pass on some of the best players in the game. Gaborik and Kovalchuk specifically come to mind. We could have signed Marian Gaborik for nothing, instead we trade a future #1 center for an inferior player in Phil Kessel. It's decisions like this that will continue to bite us in the ass.
Kessel is a better player, and had and still has room to improve.

Gaborik came at a price of 7.5 million, and had the injury history of Connolly. A huge gamble.

Kovalchuk is signed for another 13 years. Toronto should want nothing to do with that contract, regardless of caliber of player at this point in time.

Last I checked, 2 players isn't "consistently". And you know, something that people REALLY have to get through their heads, just because we want a player doesn't mean we get them, no matter what we offer.

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03-15-2012, 11:21 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
It's actually nothing like that. But at least Charlie Brown doesn't whine and complain and give up.
Oh, I think it's just like it.

This year we will win, this year we will win, this year we will win, and so on.

You carry on believing though.

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03-15-2012, 11:22 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
There is no reason to keep Burke. None. He said what he was going to do and he failed. Accountability is most important.

Brian Burke

"As I said to you guys a year ago, I wasn't interested, and I'm still not, in a five-year ... I know it doesn't have to be five years, because it wasn't in Anaheim"
Times change and his plan has changed as well. The trait of a good manager is too adapt and overcome. Give him another few years now to see what he does. Leafs may be last in the standing but the marlies and their young talent are doing exceptionally well.

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03-15-2012, 11:28 AM
  #81
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leafs columnists are feasting now

it's like entering a time portal with harold ballard and yolanda back in action

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Old
03-15-2012, 11:33 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by steve1873 View Post
Oh, I think it's just like it.

This year we will win, this year we will win, this year we will win, and so on.

You carry on believing though.
Being a team on the lower end of the standings for 5 years is not the same as missing a ball hundreds of times. Nobody should have expected us to win these past 5 years. You don't lose your franchise player, all of your veterans and completely overhaul your roster and expect the worst prospect group in the league to lead you to the Stanley Cup within 4 years. These past 5 years have been correcting mistakes made by previous GMs, improving our overall asset worth, obtaining pieces to the puzzle, and letting the team grow, with hopes of making the playoffs to give them experience in that situation.

Just because the growth doesn't reflect a definite linear path does not mean that we haven't grown and improved, and everybody on our team sucks and should be traded so that we can start all over and suck for another 5 years. It's that shortsightedness that put us in this situation which Burke has been working to correct.

You carry on hating though. If you think it's pointless and there is no hope, stop cheering for this team. I'm sure you'll be bandwagoning back on to our team in due time.

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03-15-2012, 12:59 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Budsfan View Post
Best minds....The money spent on upper management, would only be distributed throughout the league as profit-sharing, Burke has pulled off some great trades and they were not of his own making entirely, a lot of the credit has to go to that group as a whole.
credit for what? getting the team to 12th place? "great trades"? what have these "great trades" brought us? isn't the purpose of making trades supposed to be team improvement?

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Stop gap center....Top centers are not a dime a dozen as some here think, getting one is extremely difficult and the costs in prospects and draft choices are prohibitive, check out which one you would get in this years F/A crop.
http://www.sportscity.com/nhl/2012-n...ition/#Centers
so when can we expect one?

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Over paid....The going rate of most free agent players is very high and so if you want to get any you have to pay the rate that other teams will pay, to be in the game and in my opinion, they are all over paid.
if they're not going to perform and help us all the way to 12th place, why does burke want any of them? yes, they're highly overpaid for what they've brought.

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How do you know if they will fit in a team system.... Until you hire them, they are all professional hockey players and have played many systems coming up through the ranks OHL, AHL and NHL and even before and were successful or they wouldn't be here but certain systems favour different players, like the old saying "horses for courses".
if you cannot reasonably predict how a player will fit into your team's system, you are unfit to be an nhl gm. the job is too difficult for you.

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Note.... Carlyle has only been here a short time and it takes time to implement a new system and too some of these players will be elsewhere, in trades and free agency.
how much time? when will we see the benefits of carlyle's system.

the silence surrounding our new coach has been deafening. the coaching change hasn't made one bit of difference so far. i remember when maurice was hired, and when wilson was hired, the talk surrounding the new coach went on and on for months. people sang the praises of both. but its not the same with carlyle. its almost as if fans are bored with him already.

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03-15-2012, 01:04 PM
  #84
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Well I say disaster it up all the way to the lottery bank.

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03-15-2012, 01:06 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Connolly was a short term stop-gap, the second best center in the FA market last season, and at that point Grabovski, Bozak and Dupuis were the only centers on our team. His work ethic can sometimes be questioned, but his production isn't as bad as people make it out to be, considering that he has spent the majority of the season on the third line. It was a good signing, regardless of how it turned out.
i find this to be an amazing statement. it doesn't matter how a transaction turns out? how else does anyone judge a signing or trade, if not by the results?

i always thought the only thing that mattered was how it turned out.

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Mike Komisarek wasn't the best signing in retrospect, but he was coming off of a great season, and multiple teams offered him similar dollars. He has picked his game up considerably since the coaching change, and his signing hasn't hindered us in any way.
again, this is amazing to me. because he was coming off a good season, and other gms might have been prepared to make the same mistake, this somehow lets burke off the hook for this bad signing?

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We got these players for free, were some of the best options of their time in FA, and they haven't prevented us from doing anything.
they've prevented us from winning. i'm not sure what else matters.

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03-15-2012, 01:07 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by SenorDingDong View Post
Times change and his plan has changed as well. The trait of a good manager is too adapt and overcome. Give him another few years now to see what he does. Leafs may be last in the standing but the marlies and their young talent are doing exceptionally well.
Ill give him one more year till I fire him, and Im a burke fan.

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03-15-2012, 01:08 PM
  #87
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I wouldn't call the Leafs a 'disaster'. What I mean to say, is well, they still get paid -- and a lot too, I might add.

If you disagree; well, name some other professions where this kind of failure is rewarded with larges sums of money.

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03-15-2012, 01:11 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
How do these guys continue getting paid to write this crap? it's not informative at all, brings nothing new to the fans.
what would you expect from a columnist at this time of year, when the team is in this position? you'd expect new information?

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03-15-2012, 01:13 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
I wouldn't call the Leafs a 'disaster'. What I mean to say, is well, they still get paid -- and a lot too, I might add.

If you disagree; well, name some other professions where this kind of failure is rewarded with larges sums of money.
exactly. the idea of "give him another few years" is an excuse that would never fly in the real world.

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03-15-2012, 01:22 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by SenorDingDong View Post
Times change and his plan has changed as well. The trait of a good manager is too adapt and overcome. Give him another few years now to see what he does. Leafs may be last in the standing but the marlies and their young talent are doing exceptionally well.
This is something people tend to ignore. It has to be taken into consideration with the criticism he (Burke) certainly deserves.

I do think Burkes plan originally changed and so have his beliefs over certain things.

When Wilson was fired there was talk about how he didn't agree with Burkes philosophy on how he builds teams (in terms of tough skilled, top six/bottom six, yadda yadda), I thought that was very, very strange.

I don't know what goes on behind closed doors with GMs and their coaches, but if your a GM don't you want to bring in players that fit the coaches style? That's strange - really strange. And I think Burke was either too bold/cocky or just naive in his original moves for the club where he felt he could bring in 'his' players and they would work under Wilson - regardless of Wilson's style of coaching. They didn't.

Somewhere along the lines Burke figured out it wasn't working and tried to bring in more skilled types to compliment the system Wilson wanted (run and gun). But then that created a disconnect between the slot footed defenders and the lack of defensive awareness from the forwards.

Now we are hearing rumours of players buying in or not to the current system w/Carlyle. I think a lot of that has to do with a mix mash of player styles on this team and lack of distinctive roles with the players.

It's certainly a disaster right now. Hopefully something that can be changed during the summer. The good news about the way the league is set up right now is that you can bottom out one year, and rebound to a playoff team the next. Obviously this hasn't happened with the Leafs, but a few moves working out can dramatically change this teams fortunes IMO.

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03-15-2012, 04:17 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
i find this to be an amazing statement. it doesn't matter how a transaction turns out? how else does anyone judge a signing or trade, if not by the results?

i always thought the only thing that mattered was how it turned out.
That's the problem with HF. Everybody thinks they're the best GM ever by looking in hindsight. You have to look at the result AND look at it when the signing/trade was made. Not every transaction is going to work out. It doesn't matter if you're the best GM in the world.

We needed a center. We got the second best center in the market, and the best one that was willing to sign in Toronto. He was a proven top-6 forward.

It's risk vs. reward. The potential reward of getting a center for Kessel, with a complimentary play style, was worth the risk of it not working out as planned and having that player underachieve for at worst 2 years. We filled a need, and the risk vs. reward assessment was in our favor. It was a good signing.

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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
again, this is amazing to me. because he was coming off a good season, and other gms might have been prepared to make the same mistake, this somehow lets burke off the hook for this bad signing?
No, but it proves that it was market value for that player. There is a difference between a bad signing and a bad result.

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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
They've prevented us from winning. I'm not sure what else matters.
No, they have not prevented us from winning.

You people act as if we turned down a free line of Stamkos-Crosby-Malkin to go with a line of Armstrong-Connolly-Lombardi. No. It was those players or nothing. Our prospects weren't ready. There were no reasonable trades available. There were holes in our lineup. We obtained some of the best players available to us at that time, and it cost us nothing.

Signing these players did not hurt or take anything away from this organization. It merely gave us more options on who to play.

Think about it. You have two options.

Option one: You can sign 2 players in FA for 10 million to short term contracts that may end up being slightly overpaid. They both fill needs. One will become a contributing member of your team, and one will struggle and perform below expectations, though you may still be able to move it for assets down the road.

Option two: You go the whole season with 10 million in unused cap space.

If you chose option 2, you would be a terrible GM. Option one lets your prospects develop and adds assets to your franchise. Option two adds nothing.

If we didn't have Connolly, Lombardi, etc., we wouldn't have a Crosby or Malkin. We would have empty, unused cap space and prospects being destroyed.


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03-15-2012, 04:59 PM
  #92
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It's pretty hard to disagree with what Simmons wrote.

The laundry list of Burke fumbles & follies is getting pretty substantial. It's a scathing critique and the article doesn't even mention Kessel.

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03-15-2012, 05:01 PM
  #93
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Simmons vs Burke. Continue.

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03-15-2012, 05:16 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by andrewmn View Post
It's pretty hard to disagree with what Simmons wrote.

The laundry list of Burke fumbles & follies is getting pretty substantial. It's a scathing critique and the article doesn't even mention Kessel.
It's always hard to take these guys seriously when they say things like this:

"Liles played well in the first half, signed a new deal, and hasn’t matched it since: He has three years and $12.7 million to go".

What's the problem you ask? Well let's start with what he's insinuating: Liles signed a new contract and is now floating. Now let's move on to some facts. Why was Liles out of the lineup? Why that would be because of a concussion, you know, the thing that has kept the best player in the game off the ice for about 2 years now. How about another fact: Liles signed for LESS than he currently makes and most assuredly less than market value.

This is the kind of stuff these guys write and many around here eat up. Pure speculation with not very subtle under tones and little fact.


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03-15-2012, 05:26 PM
  #95
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Steve Simmons has cornered the market on pettiness. He's the poison ivy of journalism - best avoided and very irritating if experienced.

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03-15-2012, 05:30 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by L Corncrick View Post
Steve Simmons has cornered the market on pettiness. He's the poison ivy of journalism - best avoided and very irritating if experienced.
Part of it is the smug satisfaction that coaches and GM's will come and go and guys like Simmons can do anything short of libel and still be around to tear the next guy down.

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03-15-2012, 05:36 PM
  #97
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Poetic Justice will be an obituary write-up by Simmons the day after Burke is fired.

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03-15-2012, 05:38 PM
  #98
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A few days ago on OTR, Simmons and some other nerd reporter were on Up Front, and when Landsberg was asking him a legitimate question about the Leafs struggles, Simmons just had this stupid **** eating grin on his face, Landsberg immediately called him out on it and he immediately deflects the question and conjures up some BS answer.

The guy is really a smug and pompous SOB. I hope I catch him slipping on a sheet of ice or something else as equally embarassing so I can post the photos on-line and it goes viral afterwards. Just so he knows it's usually not wise to kick a man when he's down, because he might get up.


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03-15-2012, 05:41 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by L Corncrick View Post
Steve Simmons has cornered the market on pettiness. He's the poison ivy of journalism - best avoided and very irritating if experienced.
burke has has it easy .......check out sportswriters in major US or EUROPEAN cities on their sports franchises
the team is garbage and its his players ......im not sure simmons or cox or any of us can disagree ...if we were sportwriters wed have to tell the truth ..and quite frankly im not sure burke even has tannebaum's ear now ..i think burkie may be in tough to find a way to blame anyone else .....but cmon 6 million on a front office staff?i dont want any of these other guys in on decisions if this is the best they can come up with
not sure i want burkie running the draft ........ABSOLUTLEY DONT WANT THAT DEFENCEMAN FROM THE US DEVELEPMENTAL TEAM .....we got schenn
im afraid burke is gonna fuk things up if they let him
sorry but he should be fired

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03-15-2012, 05:44 PM
  #100
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Every single team gets the chance to spend up to the cap ceiling. Burke doesnt have any monetary advantage over any team. Some teams just choose not to spend that high. Burke chose this too.
What an asinine thing to say.

Burke has the green light from ownership to spend to the cap. There's a ridiculous amount of poor teams GM's that don't have that privilege.

It's an utterly absurd advantage he has over a substantial amount of other teams in the nhl.

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