It's ridiculous to depend on drafting in the lottery again next year to get the center.
If the Oilers are in that position again then everybody should be and probably will be fired.
I get the feeling that Tambo is only here until things start turning around. He will be the scapegoat for all of this ****. As soon as we are ready to battle for the playoffs and have a long run of playoff appearances, Tambo will be the guy that is told what to do. Doesn't feel at all like he has the power to do what he wants...which is probably a good thing.
Why change him now, new guy is going to get **** on while they suck for a year or two...perhaps three. Tambo is going to be around for at least 2 more years.
I don't think any rational Oiler fan thinks that Gagner can snag a dman with top end potential - and, yes, I know that leaves a lot of fans of the irrational variety.
Gagner couldn't grab a young NHL D-man who is a top pairing player like EJ, Kulikov, OEL, or Pietrangelo but he could return a prospect with top pairing potential+ like Schultz, Murphy or maybe even Ellis if Nashville gets bumped early. Turris got Rundblad+ and Gagner has been a much better player than Turris.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oats
How the **** could Turris have had or still have more value than Gagner? He has proven to be worse that Gags. Honestly hf is bizarre, its as if toiling away somehow upped Turris' value and actually playing 4 years in the NHL hurt Gagners
On HF, not reaching expectations quickly is about the worst thing a player can do. Turris was a top 3 pick and hadn't worked out so far on a team few on HF watched and therefore he could still trade on potential in discussions. Gagner is seen as plateaued, so the fact that he's younger than Turris, also a high pick, and has accomplished so much more is irrelevant. To HF, Gagner is what he is, and Turris is the mystery box.
"Grigorenko is clearly the 2nd best player in the draft"
That is your opinion...but in reality Galchenyuk, Dumba, Murray are all in the mix to be the 2nd best player in this draft.
It's not my opinion. He's the consensus #2 pick. The lowest I've seen him ranked is #5 and that was last summer before most people in N.A. got to see him play http://www.coppernblue.com/2012/2/14...ebruary-update
On HF, not reaching expectations quickly is about the worst thing a player can do. Turris was a top 3 pick and hadn't worked out so far on a team few on HF watched and therefore he could still trade on potential in discussions. Gagner is seen as plateaued, so the fact that he's younger than Turris, also a high pick, and has accomplished so much more is irrelevant. To HF, Gagner is what he is, and Turris is the mystery box.
Turris has potential, due to being underutilized or stuck on the third/fourth line or pb duties under Tippet.
Gagner has been showered with first line TOI, first unit pp time, playing with the best players Edmonton has to offer, yet his story never changes and he never realizes his rookie season totals. In a word, Gagner's potential has been exposed.
I think it is a complete joke when people say "always take BPA".
First, best player available is a completely subjective thing. Every team will have a different list. To assume that the Oilers don't have Murray and/or Dumba ranked higher that Grigorenko or Galchenyuk or Forsberg, you must have a crystal ball. No one, likely including the Oilers themselves, is certain at this stage who the BPA is and I'm certain the Oilers' pre-draft ranking is constantly changing and will continue to change right up to the time they make the pick. Inside their very organization I'm positive they are constantly trying to decide who is better between the top 5 picks, outside of arguably Yakupov (though I even question that, quite frankly).
It also bugs me when people say "just trade Gagner for a top young stud dman". What makes anyone think that Gagner, who hasn't done much of anything in 5 years so far, would land a top defensive prospect? Sure, he might land a dman, but not one the Oilers need (comparable talent-wise to the kids available in this draft, like Murray, Dumba, etc.).
How is that a joke? When I say that the Oilers have to take the BPA, I'm saying that the Oilers have to take THEIR BPA, which should be independent of position. That's why I never say "the Oilers should take the BPA, Grigorenko" or "the Oilers should take the BPA, Murray" - I have no idea what their BPA is. As long as the Oilers take their BPA, I have no problems with whoever they pick.
Also I think people want to package Gagner with something else to get a potential top pairing dman.
The competitive nature surrounding the franchise goes to show why you guys are year after year the **** of the league. Maybe start setting higher expectations fro yourself (starting from the front office) and you'll win a playoff spot in the next 5 years. Pretty pathetic...
oilers 7-7-2 versus the East 16 games 16 points. 1PPG
Eastern teams equal to or Below 1PPG.
Buffalo 1PPG
Carolina .962PPG
Toronto .925PPG
Montreal .925PPG
NYI .925PPG
Tampa .925PPG
Can we come to the east and finish 10th in the Conference.
Turris has potential, due to being underutilized or stuck on the third/fourth line or pb duties under Tippet.
Gagner has been showered with first line TOI, first unit pp time, playing with the best players Edmonton has to offer, yet his story never changes and he never realizes his rookie season totals. In a word, Gagner's potential has been exposed.
He got his best totals playing with Nilsson and cogliano
Nilsson playing in the KHL, Cogliano a 2nd/3rd liner in Anaheim.
What you fail to mention is his numbers when he played with penner and hemsky. 1st line. almost 1PPG.
he has played with alot of 2nd to 4ths who cannot score. Not Ideal for a highassist set-up center.
It's not my opinion. He's the consensus #2 pick. The lowest I've seen him ranked is #5 and that was last summer before most people in N.A. got to see him play http://www.coppernblue.com/2012/2/14...ebruary-update
Hate to nitpick but there is significant difference between "clearly" the 2nd best player vs "consensu #2 pick.
Grigorenko does not have the #2 slot on lockdown, Dumba, Murray, Galchenyuk are all in the mix.
For me the last two years the choice was clear: Hall, RNH. And despite all the Segin>Hall claims I'd still want it exactly the same way.
This year is different. I am far less sure what I hope the team does, and even less sure of what they will do. BUt while I love Dumba's game and would be thrilled to have him as an Oiler, at this point I am definitely on side with a center and am now probably more interested in Galchenyuk than Grigorenko.
My guess is that with all the injuries and with many of the top guys probably having fairly short playoff runs that the combine and the interviews will have a real impact on how this plays out for the Oilers. It is really no more than a hunch, but I have a sense that both Galchenyuk and Dumba will shine through that process.
How the **** could Turris have had or still have more value than Gagner? He has proven to be worse that Gags. Honestly hf is bizarre, its as if toiling away somehow upped Turris' value and actually playing 4 years in the NHL hurt Gagners
We have all seen what Gagner can do. I don't believe there is an unknown factor with him. With Turris, it is about potential. Many think he was rushed into the NHL by Phoenix and not given a proper opportunity and that he still had/has untapped potential. Maybe I'm wrong. But this is OT.
oilers 7-7-2 versus the East 16 games 16 points. 1PPG
Eastern teams equal to or Below 1PPG.
Buffalo 1PPG
Carolina .962PPG
Toronto .925PPG
Montreal .925PPG
NYI .925PPG
Tampa .925PPG
Can we come to the east and finish 10th in the Conference.
Its funny I always think this playing eastern teams. There is so much open ice, no physicality at all and its high scoring. I wish oilers played in the east compared to the boring girnding only play d hockey of the west
Obviously you support not taking the best player available. Last time your team got Parise my team traded down got Marc Pouliot
How does that have anything to do with BPA and need? If anything that proves my point. Both were listed as centers and Edmonton traded their pick.
My point is BPA isn't as simple as everyone loves to make it sound. It is the weakest argument on these boards. Someone says that they want a player or that some team should take someone and they follow it up with "because he is BPA". What is it that makes him BPA?
Teams make lists of who they like and how they would fit on their team. They tell their scouts before the season starts to look for certain types of players that fit into what they want.
They don't look at lists and go "oh ISS and CSS said this guy is #2 so lets take him".
In the NHL with the salary cap, you rarely find key pieces to your team through free agency and if you do you usually have to overpay. Also, it has made trading a lot more difficult because you constantly have to be worrying about the cap hit.
That is interesting. Time to tinker with the age-old axiom that has always been:
This used to apply when the trade market was active and free agency had plenty of good pickings but times have changed. Free agency is a shadow of what it used to be and the trade market is almost dead outside of the trade deadline. You can control your own destiny player-personnel wise with the draft rather than rely on an outside party to agree to a deal that you can live with.
In another thread someone suggested that the Oilers would trade Gagner to fill a need on the blue-line, but I don’t think that Gagner can fetch the type of quality compared to the potential of the d-men that will go in the top ten this year.
Unless there is a considerable gap in the perceived talent of two players, I see nothing wrong with drafting for position at the draft.
Really? Just a few names of FA's and traded d-men off the top of my head who have moved at the deadline, draft and during free agency over the last few years:
Thats just off the top of my head. As posted several times before, Oilers fans don't think Gagner is going to get them a #1 dman, but he could land a good NHL ready dman or a legit top 4 dman. If Murray is the guy the Oilers have as BPA, great, pick him, if not, it is pretty obvious that they have the trade chips and cap room to go after someone. Not to mention they have a deep stable of prospects on defense coming up.
Really? Just a few names of FA's and traded d-men off the top of my head who have moved at the deadline, draft and during free agency over the last few years:
Liles, Regehr, Burns, Whitney, Gilbert, Visnovsky, E Johnson & J Johnson, Shattenkirk, Ehrhoff.
Out of the 10 guys you listed, the five I bolded were either traded for one another or for another defenceman. The Oilers account for two of the trades, (Whitney-for-Visnovsky & Schultz-for-Gilbert) while Erik Johnson and Shattenkirk were dealt for each other in a larger trade. I would think that the objective of the Oilers is to upgrade their blueline rather than re-shuffle bodies where the end result is more or less the same.
Ehrhoff was a good UFA signing, but if the Oilers can’t sign Suter, what does the UFA pool have left to offer ?
Burns and Jack Johnson were involved in trades of a magnitude that would require the Oilers to part with one of RNH/Hall/Eberle, and this discussion about possibly drafting a d-man wouldn’t be necessary if the Oilers were contemplating trading one of the Big 3 to land a high-end defenceman.
Regehr wasn’t going to be traded to Edmonton.
That leaves JM Liles as the one d-man that the Oilers could’ve traded for, as the Leafs only paid a 2nd-round pick to get him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PKSpecialist
As posted several times before, Oilers fans don't think Gagner is going to get them a #1 dman, but he could land a good NHL ready dman or a legit top 4 dman. If Murray is the guy the Oilers have as BPA, great, pick him, if not, it is pretty obvious that they have the trade chips and cap room to go after someone. Not to mention they have a deep stable of prospects on defense coming up.
I think the Oilers have to aim higher. Tambellini has obviously scoured the trade market for a solution and has not found one. There’s a lack of quality after Suter in the UFA market. The Oilers have a chance to address the position in-house with the draft pick. As long as the gap in talent between #2 and #3 isn’t substantial. People cite Malkin versus Barker, but historically the gap between #2 and #3 hasn’t been that great, and it has favoured the defenceman as much as it has favoured the forward.
]How does that have anything to do with BPA and need?[/B] If anything that proves my point. Both were listed as centers and Edmonton traded their pick.
My point is BPA isn't as simple as everyone loves to make it sound. It is the weakest argument on these boards. Someone says that they want a player or that some team should take someone and they follow it up with "because he is BPA". What is it that makes him BPA?
Teams make lists of who they like and how they would fit on their team. They tell their scouts before the season starts to look for certain types of players that fit into what they want.
They don't look at lists and go "oh ISS and CSS said this guy is #2 so lets take him".
In the NHL with the salary cap, you rarely find key pieces to your team through free agency and if you do you usually have to overpay. Also, it has made trading a lot more difficult because you constantly have to be worrying about the cap hit.
People are saying dont take the guy every scout has rated 2nd because your team needs dmen.
In 2003 it was we have small centers so dont need that Parise guy lets trade down for that player who fits a NEED. Well a few years later Todd Marchand and Mike Comrie were gone so drafting for need was stupid because the team didnt have small centers by the time the drafted player was available to play. Parise ended up being way better.
So had the oilers drafted BPA instead of by need they wouldnt trade down and would have taken Parise instead of Pouliot
People are saying dont take the guy every scout has rated 2nd because your team needs dmen.
In 2003 it was we have small centers so dont need that Parise guy lets trade down for that player who fits a NEED. Well a few years later Todd Marchand and Mike Comrie were gone so drafting for need was stupid because the team didnt have small centers by the time the drafted player was available to play. Parise ended up being way better.
So had the oilers drafted BPA instead of by need they wouldnt trade down and would have taken Parise instead of Pouliot
To me this who Parise argument to validate why you need to continue to select forwards at 1st/2nd overall is just grasping for straws. Edmonton wasn't the only team that passed on Parise.
Everyone is talking about how even if you take a d-man in the draft it won't matter because he isn't going to just step in next year and suddenly change everything. The point is to build your team for the future. There currently isn't a top defenseman in your system. This is something that you don't seriously reap the rewards for at least 4-5 years, which is probably around the time guys like Hall, RNH, Eberle, MPS, and so on will be hitting their primes and be some of the top players in the NHL.
It isn't like the difference from Grigorenko and Murray/Trouba/Dumba is that big either.
I just feel Dumba is going to be better or at least equal to Murray. One thing he does bring that the Oilers lack is toughness and that big open ice hitter.
