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Is Henrik Lundqvist An HOFer?

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Old
03-09-2012, 03:41 PM
  #76
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
58 voting points, not 58 votes. Sorry, but it is a terrible argument to hang your hat on when just over 10% of voters put him on their ballots. If stamkos was on 12 ballots, do you really think that means people saw fleury as a bigger difference maker? The VAST MAJORITY of the voters named NEITHER player; therefore, we don't really know what the vast majority thought. We know that 15 likely preferred fleury and 12 likely preferred stamkos. The other 100? No clue.
So why bother even having the Hart voting then? The eyeball test told me Fleury played well last year and was the most valuable asset to his injury riddled team. Others believed this as well. Enough that several thought he was top 5 in the Hart voting. If it was meaningless then they wouldn't have rated him as high as he was.

But I don't even think that is what defines his career. Backstopping a team to back to back final appearances and being a central figure in doing so is his bread and butter so far.

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03-09-2012, 04:14 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
So why bother even having the Hart voting then? The eyeball test told me Fleury played well last year and was the most valuable asset to his injury riddled team. Others believed this as well. Enough that several thought he was top 5 in the Hart voting. If it was meaningless then they wouldn't have rated him as high as he was.

But I don't even think that is what defines his career. Backstopping a team to back to back final appearances and being a central figure in doing so is his bread and butter so far.
You're not understanding the concept. You're pushing something that is statistically insignificant.

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03-09-2012, 04:16 PM
  #78
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I think Awards voting should be public. I want to know what homer put Fleury #1 for the Hart last year.

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03-09-2012, 04:34 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
I think Awards voting should be public. I want to know what homer put Fleury #1 for the Hart last year.
I'm thinking less a homer than a smartass who wanted to make a point about the term "valuable."
I'm sure there are a few guys who approach the Hart like all of them approach the Jack Adams — always asking the "what if his team had to make do without him" question.

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03-09-2012, 05:18 PM
  #80
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None of the forwards really dominated last year, and it was a pretty weak class of Dmen. MAF was a very worthy Hart candidate. Without him and Bylsma, a team that challenged for top spot in the conference would have been a 30th place team.

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03-09-2012, 05:42 PM
  #81
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right now? no

but he's on the right path,and his probable Vezina this year will certainly help

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03-09-2012, 06:09 PM
  #82
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Lundqist is the best goaltender post lockout (probably cleary with Vokoun down this year and him having a Vezina season).

Would a forward being the best forward of a clear aera this long would not be a HHOF ?

Maybe because I should have said regular season goaltender and he was more regular than other (always goaltender as good or better than him each season).

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03-09-2012, 06:14 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by MadLuke View Post
Lundqist is the best goaltender post lockout (probably cleary with Vokoun down this year and him having a Vezina season).

Would a forward being the best forward of a clear aera this long would not be a HHOF ?

Maybe because I should have said regular season goaltender and he was more regular than other (always goaltender as good or better than him each season).
I'm not sure what Vokoun has to do with it. I know he's easy to crap on now, but Luongo is probably Lundqvist's biggest competition for best goalie since the lockout. Brodeur is there for the first half of the time frame, Thomas for the second half.

I do agree with you that over the whole time frame, Lundqvist has probably been the best.

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03-09-2012, 06:22 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm not sure what Vokoun has to do with it. I know he's easy to crap on now, but Luongo is probably Lundqvist's biggest competition for best goalie since the lockout. Brodeur is there for the first half of the time frame, Thomas for the second half.

I do agree with you that over the whole time frame, Lundqvist has probably been the best.
Before that year Vokoun would have probably been a good competitor for second of that period.

Yeah Luongo is probably best and only competition to Lundqvist over the timeframe, Brodeur last 2-3 seasons make him hard to consider as number one, Thomas missed a lot of time at the start, MAF, Cam Ward, etc... did not have Lundqvist consistency and excellence imo.

Only thing against Henrik is playoff.

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03-09-2012, 08:21 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
That's not how this works. Winning a championship is listed on an individual player's resume despite it being a team accomplishment.

People say "Luongo's never won anything, that means he's not clutch!"

The response is, of course "He won the championship in the most pretigious and difficult international tournament." (.927 tournament save percentage, .944 in the gold-medal game, 1.000 in overtime)

The retort comes back "Yeah, but they would have won it without him!" (Generally translates to: championships are important, unless they're won by a player I don't like.)

That's simply not valid. If you want to consider team accomplishment when evaluating players, you have to accept them for everyone. And if you're going to go through and analyze each player's performance, why then use the shorthand of championships? And then, what about players who dominated in playoffs but played for mediocre teams, and therefore never actually won a championship? The "Championships" crowd will still say "Yeah, what did he ever win?"

In my experience, trotting out championships is an effort to support a predetermined conclusion, not as a data point to make a determination.


Agreed, and moreover the focus on team accomplishments when evaluating individual players is pretty short-sighted sometimes.
While I agree with alot of what you are saying here, we also can and do draw distinctions between different players performances.

Luogno wasn't the go to guy for Canada, he was placed in after a poor performance by Broduer, Lunqvist was the number 1 goalie for Sweden and played a larger role in that teams success IMO.

As for Luongo "not being clutch" or those that assert this label, it's not the stuff he hasn't won but how he has imploded on more than 1 occasion in the spotlight that matters more in making these comparisons IMO.

Goalies are the most difficult of positions to evaluate and compare as we should not lose sight of that truth as well as this is why alot of subjective opinions abound with the position compared to others.

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03-10-2012, 01:01 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You're not understanding the concept. You're pushing something that is statistically insignificant.
He had a great year last year. You are saying you didn't see that? As it stands, I think his voting record fits right around where he should have finished anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
I'm thinking less a homer than a smartass who wanted to make a point about the term "valuable."
I'm sure there are a few guys who approach the Hart like all of them approach the Jack Adams — always asking the "what if his team had to make do without him" question.
Pretty much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadLuke View Post
Lundqist is the best goaltender post lockout (probably cleary with Vokoun down this year and him having a Vezina season).

Would a forward being the best forward of a clear aera this long would not be a HHOF ?

Maybe because I should have said regular season goaltender and he was more regular than other (always goaltender as good or better than him each season).
Thomas and Luongo first and foremost. Brodeur possibly too. Each of those goalies have had peaks and valleys and while Lundqvist has been more consistent I don't think he has reached the level of either one of them at his best

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03-14-2012, 07:43 AM
  #87
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Most goalies are not hall of famers. Henrik has a while to go

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03-14-2012, 09:17 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Wow.........Tony O? High praise, but Lundqvist has never even been a 1st or 2nd all-star and Esposito did it 5 times.



Well he did play Detroit twice. Both series were tight series. He wasn't playing against some patsies. And in 2009 it is easy to forget how clutch Fleury was that postseason. He had a couple vapour lock moments, but he rebounded every time with a spectacular performance. He made incredible saves in each playoff round. Each time it could have altered the series. Against Jeff Carter in the Philly series, Ovechkin in Game 7, Staal against Carolina and then brilliant stops against Cleary late in Game 6 on a breakaway that would have tied the game and then who can forget the highway robbery on Lidstrom? The guy got the monkey off his back in dramatic fashion. Yeah, I'd say he stepped it up big time.



Why is it that a 27 year old with two trips to the final, an Olympic Gold as a back up, plenty of wins in his young career a "joke" to be mentioned just on projection? He was 9th in Hart voting in 2011. Look at him this year too and while Malkin deservingly is getting the press it also helps that Fleury has played very strong this year.
Seriously? I could bring my great grandmother from the grave and she'd have an olympic gold as a backup. You seem to be really reaching here.

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03-14-2012, 09:24 PM
  #89
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To the guy above me, the medal isn't the important thing, just being named to the Canadian Olympic team as a goalie is a huge honor. How many Canadian Olympic goalies since 1998 aren't future Hall of Famers? Just Turco, I think.

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03-14-2012, 10:14 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by SidGenoMario View Post
To the guy above me, the medal isn't the important thing, just being named to the Canadian Olympic team as a goalie is a huge honor. How many Canadian Olympic goalies since 1998 aren't future Hall of Famers? Just Turco, I think.
You took the words out of my mouth. I was going to respond to him and suggest just how much of a honour it is to be the 3rd stringer on Canada. Come 2014 I'll bet you dollars to donuts Fleury is on that team as well.

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03-14-2012, 11:28 PM
  #91
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If he retired today, I'd say no. Will he be? I'd say there's a very good chance.
I'd say the same.

He's 29 yrs old. If he were to maintain 30 wins per season over the next 5 he'd be close to 400. If he were to also maintain a relative save percentage and GAA it would be very close to a lock.

If he averaged 6 SOs over the same time span, he'd be 3rd all-time among GK's not in the HoF, (and I imagine the guy on top, Brodeur, is a first year slam dunk, as is the Hasek, the 2nd on the list), ending up in the top ten all-time, if Luongo tapers down.

Given the coach, the system and the young core of d-man in front of him, this is within the realm of possibility.

Some hardware would be a big plus obviously.

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03-15-2012, 03:07 AM
  #92
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I think he would have to win something in his career to be considered for the HOF.
Guldhjälmen Award winner (Swedish version of Ted Lindsay / Lester B Pearson Trophy)
Guldpucken Award winner (Swedish version of Hart Trophy)
Olympic Gold Medal
World Championship Gold Medal
World Championship Silver Medal (Twice)

It's the HOCKEY HOF, Not the NHL HOF

Plus, he's probably gonna win the Vezina this year. I'd say he's well on his way to becoming a HOFer.

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03-15-2012, 03:10 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Kevin8se7en View Post
Guldhjälmen Award winner (Swedish version of Ted Lindsay / Lester B Pearson Trophy)
Guldpucken Award winner (Swedish version of Hart Trophy)
Olympic Gold Medal
World Championship Gold Medal
World Championship Silver Medal (Twice)

It's the HOCKEY HOF, Not the NHL HOF

Plus, he's probably gonna win the Vezina this year. I'd say he's well on his way to becoming a HOFer.
That's all well and good, but I think it's pretty obvious the HHOF doesn't care about any of that. They probably should, though.

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03-15-2012, 04:39 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Kevin8se7en View Post
Guldhjälmen Award winner (Swedish version of Ted Lindsay / Lester B Pearson Trophy)
Guldpucken Award winner (Swedish version of Hart Trophy)

Olympic Gold Medal
World Championship Gold Medal
World Championship Medal (Twice)

It's the HOCKEY HOF, Not the NHL HOF

Plus, he's probably gonna win the Vezina this year. I'd say he's well on his way to becoming a HOFer.
He won those trophies in SEL during the lockout, which make it a bit more impressive. Competing with players like

Forsberg, Naslund, Chara, Hossa, Gaborik, Turco, Zetterberg, Kiprusoff, Sedins, Alfredsson, Holmstrom, O Jokinen, to name a few.

He was outstanding in the playoffs and was a good reason Frölunda HC won that year. SV 96,16%, 1,05 GA and 6 SO in 14 games.

Btw, What is the playoff SV% record for a goalie playing the SCF?


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03-15-2012, 05:13 AM
  #95
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Barasso, Vernon, Richter and Moog all very good goalies in their day have all been waiting around for a while to get into the Hall.

If they don't get in at this point I would gurantee King Henry ever makes it.

He has yet to win a Vezina, a Stanley Cup or Olympic Gold. Lets see what he can do with the rest of his career before rushing to a decision.

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03-15-2012, 05:15 PM
  #96
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That's all well and good, but I think it's pretty obvious the HHOF doesn't care about any of that. They probably should, though.
The World Championships shouldn't be much, if anything, to add to your resume. If that's the case then Ryan Smyth has a shot. Its a nice tournament and don't get me wrong I always cheer for Canada, but it isn't a top level tournament. This is where I think the HHOF gets it right. They could show a little more credit to Olympic tournaments though

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03-16-2012, 09:05 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Why is it that a 27 year old with two trips to the final, an Olympic Gold as a back up, plenty of wins in his young career a "joke" to be mentioned just on projection? He was 9th in Hart voting in 2011. Look at him this year too and while Malkin deservingly is getting the press it also helps that Fleury has played very strong this year.
Imo, MAF isn't currently projected to be HOF material because the HOF is the highest standard there is. Don't take that as an insult. It in no way, shape or form means that MAF isn't a great goalie, or heck, even elite. You can be an elite goalie for some time and not be HOF material. And 9th in Hart voting, really?...imo that argument goes against you rather then for you.

MAF still has a lot of time to build a much better resume though. Only time will tell.

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03-16-2012, 09:40 AM
  #98
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You know how MAF will get in the hall? By getting ridiculous amounts of wins, kind of like he's been doing recently.

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03-16-2012, 10:05 AM
  #99
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Depending on how Osgood and Vernon get evaluated, lots of wins might not be enough for a goalie to get into the Hall.

There's been a general shift away from assessing goalies based on their W totals. If Fleury is never seen as one of the best goalies in the league (and he most assuredly isn't), then any chances at getting into the HoF will be kaput.

Furthermore, I don't think Fleury is a good enough goalie to stave off age-related decline. I don't think we'll see him compile into his late 30s like Brodeur, or Roy, or Hasek, or Belfour, etc.

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03-16-2012, 10:37 AM
  #100
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Depending on how Osgood and Vernon get evaluated, lots of wins might not be enough for a goalie to get into the Hall.

There's been a general shift away from assessing goalies based on their W totals. If Fleury is never seen as one of the best goalies in the league (and he most assuredly isn't), then any chances at getting into the HoF will be kaput.

Furthermore, I don't think Fleury is a good enough goalie to stave off age-related decline. I don't think we'll see him compile into his late 30s like Brodeur, or Roy, or Hasek, or Belfour, etc.
-MAF will have more than just wins, he'll have great stats and at least one Cup.
-MAF most assuredly isn't seen as one of the best goalies in the league? Not sure how much truth there is to that right now. Anyways, next year I guarantee you he'll be considered one of the best.
-MAF will retire in the top 10 in wins, ahead of guys like Osgood and Vernon. He could be in the top 10 by his early to mid 30's. He won't even need to be have Brodeur-esque to have good win totals. Because of the shootout, win totals will mean less, and we'll have a few guys with 400+ wins, but still, I'd bet that MAF will end up with a lot of wins, good stats, and at least 2 Cups.

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