Finally I have the chance to watch KHL on tv and Im very impressed.
I watched SKA Petersburg 2 - 1 Omsk some days ago and I got very impressed. The pace of the game and the overall skill level is better than avarage NHL match/player.
I suppose that SKA and Omsk are the better teams in the KHL and that may give the wrong impression of KHL, I dont know since I havent seen much from KHL yet.
But what do you think who watch alot of NHL and KHL? The playing style is mostly very different NHL vs KHL but that doesnt make it impossible to notice the skill level of players and the pace of the game.
If SKA played in NHL im sure they would go far in the playoff and be one of the favourites to win stanley cup.
I have to agree with you and how you argued your points.
Imo, there are two teams that could do pretty well in NHL on regular basis - SKA and Dinamo Moscow, because both teams produces the most intense (NA styled) hockey with active fore-checking and good work ethic, but I can't imagine them currently being good enough to go far in the playoffs (especially on the small ice). Though there are many teams that could be more than a match for NHL teams in a single game.
Styles of course are different, average Russian hockey player is far more better puck-handler, passer of the puck than
NHL counterparts. Though it's evened out by better conditioning and greater physicality of NHL players. Lower table games in both leagues are equally boring, NHL games could be described as un-imaginative grinds, but KHL games as passive "soccer games". When the best teams meet in both leagues, I find them equally enjoyable.
SKA and Dynamo Moscow wouldn't be the worst teams in the NHL, once they adapted to the small ice. I know the KHL uses more finesse in its playing style than the NHL does, and sometimes, NHL games dominated by near-endless grinding can be described as bowling on ice.
He's a Goalie so he would have absolutely not the first clue on how it is to play on the 3rd and 4th lines. Ask a guy like Dallman or Sopel how good the league is.
You want to talk talent and skill level between the leagues?
In the NHL these are just SOME of the young players who haven't even reached their peak
Stamkos Giroux Johansson Voracek Anismov Berglund Ekman-Larsson Karlsson Tavares Eberle Pacioretty Toews Seguin Kane Burmistov Kulikov Kruger Sbiza Couture Benn Hall Lucic Kane Orlov Larsson Hedman O'Reilly Landeskog Stephan Nugent Hopkins.
Then there's some of the players who'll be here in the next little while
Tarasenko (seems like he's coming next year so he's here)
YaKupov Grigorenko Galchenyuk Forsberg Teravainen Mackinnon Barkov Ristolainen
etc etc etc I can go on and on and on on
There is one player in that league who can play and CONTRIBUTE in the NHL (and i'm not counting RAdulov because he's an NHLer now by all accounts. ) and that's POTENTIALLY Kuznetsov.
Last edited by Majik1987: 03-16-2012 at 09:58 PM.
Reason: trolling
There is one player in that league who can play and CONTRIBUTE in the NHL (and i'm not counting RAdulov because he's an NHLer now by all accounts. ) and that's POTENTIALLY Kuznetsov.
There are at least, at least 50 players who walked away from NHL contracts in the KHL. Take a look through some of the rosters. Anyhow, keep in mind when your making your little lists of young talent, we have a list for you. past 2 seasons, and going on 3rd Russia has owned Canada at the WJC. Majority of these guys are from the various Russian leagues. Example, Sergei Kalinin, probably a guy who your mastermind has never heard of or will hear of, was one of these players. He could be in the NHL right now if he was drafted and wanted to come over. Total package of grit, skill, and poise. The reality is that as the MHL continues to strengthen, more and more young talents like this will be pumped into the KHL whilst being ignored by North Americans because of draft status.
Last edited by Majik1987: 03-16-2012 at 10:00 PM.
Reason: flaming
Fun fact *Last time KHL played NHL, SKA crushed Carolina. Riga lost to Phoenix, guess who scored the winning goal for Phoenix.... Petr Prucha - guess where he plays now . Then this season NHL pulls out of rematch? Why? Duh- doesn't want to damage the reputation of the NHL losing to KHL teams. I'm not insinuating that KHL is better than NHL, I'm saying that teams like SKA and Traktor could beat just about any NHL team in a one game tilt and I think that Mr. Bettman knows this. He knows that KHL would send their best and chances are that only an average team would be sent from the NHL and it might not end well for them, leaving a bad impression on fans.
Still a guy like Tony Mårtensson finished second place in scoring in KHL, I don't think he could secure a spot on a NHL-team. My point is even if theres plenty of skilled KHL-players, lots of the most prominent play a style of hockey that wouldn't fit in NA, or are not really good enough for a top-six role in NHL but not suitable for a bottom-six.
However there is probably quite a few KHL-players that would do reasonably well in NHL, and the fact that KHL exist weakens the depth of NHL and even more so AHL.
KHL-teams can scout the market for players that have problems getting a spot in NHL at a young age (or are impatient) or players that do well in the top-euro leagues (but not well enough to be offered a NHL-contract). When theese kinds of players enter their prime, they will be playing in KHL, even if they would be good enough for NHL.
There are at least, at least 50 players who walked away from NHL contracts in the KHL. Take a look through some of the rosters. Anyhow, keep in mind when your making your little lists of young talent, we have a list for you. past 2 seasons, and going on 3rd Russia has owned Canada at the WJC. Majority of these guys are from the various Russian leagues. Example, Sergei Kalinin, probably a guy who your mastermind has never heard of or will hear of, was one of these players. He could be in the NHL right now if he was drafted and wanted to come over. Total package of grit, skill, and poise. The reality is that as the MHL continues to strengthen, more and more young talents like this will be pumped into the KHL whilst being ignored by North Americans because of draft status.
I agree with some of your arguments, but to say Russia as owned Canada at the WJC is a little overboard! Please don't forget that every years, Canada does not have 6 or 7 of its best Juniors eligible players. Last WJC, these guys were playing in the NHL:
Nugent Hopkins, Seguin, Gundbranson, Skinner, Couturier and Johansen. That makes a hell of a difference. Take away Kuznetsov, Yakupov, Grigorenko, Gusev and ??? not sure Russia will do as good.
We are not talking about 1 or 2 players... These are 6 guys and some having IMPACT in the NHL level.
Last edited by Majik1987: 03-16-2012 at 10:00 PM.
Reason: qe
Still a guy like Tony Mårtensson finished second place in scoring in KHL, I don't think he could secure a spot on a NHL-team. My point is even if theres plenty of skilled KHL-players, lots of the most prominent play a style of hockey that wouldn't fit in NA, or are not really good enough for a top-six role in NHL but not suitable for a bottom-six.
I remember the last KHL-NHL (including one KHL-AHL and one VHL-AHL) polls I made on the main boards and most North American hockey fans discredited the Russian leagues only because some KHL star players were NHL failures (or VHL star players being AHL failures) while some of these... AHL/NHL failures improved as players in Russia and/or had games better suited for the Russian game.
Here's my opinion: I'd say that the top of the KHL can actually contend for playoff spots in the NHL as well.
A lot of NHLs ''middle class'', so to say, Europeans have moved to KHL and that's why NHL doesn't develop and KHL is developing. It won't be the best league in 5 years but it will certainly be closer to NHL than it is now. NHL is not going to develop anywhere as it has no room where develop, they already have all the best players, while KHL still has plenty of potential...
Last edited by Majik1987: 03-16-2012 at 10:01 PM.
Reason: qdp
I remember the last KHL-NHL (including one KHL-AHL and one VHL-AHL) polls I made on the main boards and most North American hockey fans discredited the Russian leagues only because some KHL star players were NHL failures (or VHL star players being AHL failures) while some of these... AHL/NHL failures improved as players in Russia and/or had games better suited for the Russian game.
Here's my opinion: I'd say that the top of the KHL can actually contend for playoff spots in the NHL as well.
As I said somewhere before, KHL is a league of guys who couldn't make it in the NHL not because of their skills but because they lacked physicality or some other qualities. There's plenty of skill in KHL and I don't think that there's less skill or speed as in the NHL. It's also a league of late bloomers as a lot of guys who've reached their prime only at 25 or later are recruited in the league from other European leagues. If we look at the top scorers...
Petruzalek had a chance to prove himself in NHL in 2 games... He had 0+1 and was sent back down to the AHL.... And his stats have only improved since he left, saying that he might as well be a late bloomer... And didn't have much of a chance to prove himself in NHL anyway.
Martensson had 6 games to prove himself in NHL. He had 1+1... Not a stellar show but didn't Ovechkin start similarly this year??? His stats have also gone up during the years, so he might as well be a late bloomer too.
Bochenski had 13 points in 28 games in NHL before moving to the KHL. Few years back he had 22 points in 33 games with Bruins. His stats have also gone up in KHL...
Dallman has, of course, been stellar as a d-man in the KHL and had a good number of games in the NHL but wasn't nowhere near as good so maybe this is an exception. Though KHL lacks good attacking defensmen who would be good in power play so maybe that's just one league's weakness he can exploit.
We all know about Radulov (his stats also went up at least until this season), Shipachyov has never played outside Russia and is still young, so who knows how he'd do there.
Morozov- we know, Tarasenko- will be a star (if isn't already)
Vrana has really exploded in the last few years, he had 16 games and 1+0 in NHL, after that 13 pts in 39 games in Czech League (!!) and look how he's doing now. Again a late bloomer...
Zaripov has played all his life in Russia.
Shirokov also had 2 games and 1+0 in NHL last year before moving back to the KHL...
People say that these people ''didn't make it'' in the NHL. I'd say most of them never really had an opportunity to ''make it'' in the NHL, they were given less than 10 games at some point in the season when someone was injured and then sent away saying that they were bad in defense etc. (and I agree that they could've been bad in NHL type of defence, not as physically strong etc.) but that doesn't mean they didn't have the skills necessary to play very high level hockey.
Zaripov could never play in the NHL because he just fears physical game like raging fire. But that doesn't mean he's a bad player who is worse offensively than 90% of NHLers Sushinsky is the same case + he's small, that didn't stop him from being on team Russia at 2006 Olympics and beat Canada 2-0 and get 5 points in 8 games.... Maybe the same can be said about Shipachyov or other players. Our Miķelis Rēdlihs also can be called late bloomer, one can see how well he's developed from a player whose only strenth was his speed to a player who know posseses not only speed but a good head and skills too. Like Radulov he's mostly turned into a great playmaker giving stellar passes to whoever can realize them into goals. Few years ago he was just a dumb kid with some serious speed...
Anisin (1.64 cm) wouldn't even be considered a hockey player in North America, he could play in CHL (or NCAA) and then he could be lucky if he got a place on ECHL roster in North America and then would have to go to play abroad, to Europe. He'd never have any chance at NHL cause of his height... but he's scoring goals in KHL play-off. if there was KHL in 1999-2000, Martin St. Loius could've moved to KHL and could be called an ''NHL reject"... In 1999 he was 24 with 2 points in 13 NHL games... Guys like Anisin is what makes KHL, in some ways, greater than KHL cause let's be honest... he's really a midget but when you see he can do what he loves and get a good paycheck and love from fans all over the league you start to appreciate KHL a lot more...
Last edited by Latgale_fan: 03-16-2012 at 02:54 PM.
I agree with some of your arguments, but to say Russia as owned Canada at the WJC is a little overboard! Please don't forget that every years, Canada does not have 6 or 7 of its best Juniors eligible players. Last WJC, these guys were playing in the NHL:
Nugent Hopkins, Seguin, Gundbranson, Skinner, Couturier and Johansen. That makes a hell of a difference. Take away Kuznetsov, Yakupov, Grigorenko, Gusev and ??? not sure Russia will do as good.
We are not talking about 1 or 2 players... These are 6 guys and some having IMPACT in the NHL level.
I see what you say. Russia was without 4 big names themselves, Namestnikov, Kabanov, Galiev, all of who are under NHL contracts, and Marchenko, arguably their best defenceman. Coutourier was non effective last year against the Russians as well. My point is this, every year for the past 7 or so years Canada has been owning Russia at the WJ's. The past 2 years all of a sudden Russia turns it around. There has also been noticeable improvement in the Subway Super series for the Russians, and they even beat Canada at the past U-18's and U-17's which they historically been bad at. All of these trends point to positive change in Russia's youth development program. Canada has always been guys to the NHL so that argument has no causation to the trend.
There is a number of guys (most recent example being Shirokov) who are top-6 players, but for a number of reasons weren't given that role in the NHL.
Then there are some who never ventured to NA. Not counting the young fellows, I think that Cervenka is a very intriguing case.
Good list, however the list can be extended massively.
Afinogenov left the NHL on a career year with 30g 70pts. Artyukhin said he walked away from NHL offers. Svitov I believe was signed with Columbus then changed his mind and the contract was terminated. Saprykin was resigned by Ottawa then when the new GM came in they mutually reversed the contract. Viktor Kozlov left after a great playoff run with the Caps, as did Fedorov. Sopel says on his twitter page that He has rejected 3 one way NHL deals. Dallman also rejected one way NHL deals and resigned with Astana. The devils traded for rights to Korolyuk and tried aggressively to sign him for playoff run a few years back. Flyers wanted to sign Evgeny Bodrov, who is a very under rated player. Zherdev obviously has talents that could have an effect in NHL if he finds right team (Laviolette and him clashed, Lav is a hot head coach). Colorado tried to sign Parshin two season ago. list can go on for miles
Still a guy like Tony Mårtensson finished second place in scoring in KHL, I don't think he could secure a spot on a NHL-team. My point is even if theres plenty of skilled KHL-players, lots of the most prominent play a style of hockey that wouldn't fit in NA, or are not really good enough for a top-six role in NHL but not suitable for a bottom-six.
Exactly, and Vice Versa for NHL players. 3rd and 4th line NHL muckers would flop in the KHL. Let me ask you what had happened to Wellwood when he tried his hand at Atlant, and he was supposed to be a skilled guy?
Players success and statistics cannot be compared in KHL and NHL because of the different styles. This will just lead to endless arguments and confusion.
I see what you say. Russia was without 4 big names themselves, Namestnikov, Kabanov, Galiev, all of who are under NHL contracts, and Marchenko, arguably their best defenceman. Coutourier was non effective last year against the Russians as well. My point is this, every year for the past 7 or so years Canada has been owning Russia at the WJ's. The past 2 years all of a sudden Russia turns it around. There has also been noticeable improvement in the Subway Super series for the Russians, and they even beat Canada at the past U-18's and U-17's which they historically been bad at. All of these trends point to positive change in Russia's youth development program. Canada has always been guys to the NHL so that argument has no causation to the trend.
Are you comparing Namestikov, Khabanov, Galiev and Machenko (sorry never saw him play so I'll pass on him) to the guys I name? Come on... I've seen the 3 that plays in NA 4-5 times each and while good young player, not on the same level as Nuge, Skinner etc..I would gives you those 4 players any day for the 7 I just named! Also, you argument of the U-18 is flawed, many of the best canadian u-18 are still in their Junior playoffs. The best U-18 tournament is Ivan Hlinka, Canada has won the last 4 years, past 7 of 8 and so on....An U-17, don't know how it work in Russia, but Canada fields 5 teams.
By the way, Couturier was just back from a mononucleosis at the WJC last years.
Frolov also isn't anywhere near retirement. His last season in the NHL was tampered by injuries, but he's far from being finished.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuker1980
Are you comparing Namestikov, Khabanov, Galiev and Machenko (sorry never saw him play so I'll pass on him) to the guys I name? Come on... I've seen the 3 that plays in NA 4-5 times each and while good young player, not on the same level as Nuge, Skinner etc..I would gives you those 4 players any day for the 7 I just named! Also, you argument of the U-18 is flawed, many of the best canadian u-18 are still in their Junior playoffs. The best U-18 tournament is Ivan Hlinka, Canada has won the last 4 years, past 7 of 8 and so on....An U-17, don't know how it work in Russia, but Canada fields 5 teams.
By the way, Couturier was just back from a mononucleosis at the WJC last years.
I think you missed the point. It' not that Russia's youth development program is suddenly superior to Canada's , that's obviously not true. But in the late 00s Canada was dominating Russia in SSS (with almost 6 different teams vs 1.5), U-17 (with 5 teams, just as now), U-20 (with some guys staying in the NHL). The most latest results showed that B & B+ teams (not even speaking about C ones) are no longer enough to do that, while A teams aren't available to Hockey Canada. The fact that an OHL squad, Sudbury Wolves, will participate in WC for Junior Clubs says a lot about the current mood in HC's HQ.
Funny you brought up Anisin: their NHL comparables are Gerbe and Desharnais...
Ok, you have Gerbe and Desharnais but it proves my point, to an extent, again... They got their first chance at NHL when they were already 24-25... and now Desharnais has 55 pts in 71 games... Just because some guy couldn't make NHL at 22-23 and left for KHL doesn't mean that his progress just stopped and he would never be able to put up 50 pts or more in NHL season. It maybe diminishes my point about players like Anisin not being able to make it in the NHL but it again stresses the fact that many people are just late bloomers and KHL has collected a lot of them. Plus not all of the guys are ready to wait out in the AHL until the age of 24 or so, to wait for that tiniest of possibility that something might change for the best to them. Plus the NHL is also changing and I believe with all the concussions and suspended players it is less physical as it used to be and some smaller guys are able to prove themselves too.
The same example as with St. Louis, if Desharnais decided to go to KHL in 2010 some of our North American friends would look up KHL stats, see that he has maybe 40 pts in 50 games and say that he's a midget AHLer who'd never be able to do anything in the NHL
I don't think any sane person would say that KHL is better or even ''very close'' to the NHL as it can't obviously be true. If NHL only had top Canadian talent, KHL- top Russian talent and other leagues top talent of their own then yeah, maybe one could say that at the moment Malkin is the best player, Datsyuk... Russians are more skilled etc. But the fact is that NHL has the top talent from all over the world and you cannot deny that. Yeah, NHL 3rd-4th line players or even guys who regularly put about 50 pts per season in NHL could do worse in KHL because it's different hockey, but the top guys Stamkos, Malkin, Giroux, Kovalchuk would still be the best anywhere they played even if their position in the standings changed... in KHL there are MAYBE (and just maybe) only few people that could be great in NHL too.... But the average Joe of NHL and KHL is, imho, much more comparable.
And what is the best league anyway- if you took only 6 guys out of NHL- Malkin, Crosby, Stamkos, Giroux, Karlsson and one of the good goalies- and sent them to the KHL..... Would KHL automatically be the best league in the world? Just because the top guys played there... The average level of hockey in NHL would still be higher. I think the average level is what counts and there isn't that big a gap in this regard as some people believe (of course some teams drag down the average level of KHL)
Last edited by Latgale_fan: 03-17-2012 at 09:15 AM.
Frolov also isn't anywhere near retirement. His last season in the NHL was tampered by injuries, but he's far from being finished.
I think you missed the point. It' not that Russia's youth development program is suddenly superior to Canada's , that's obviously not true. But in the late 00s Canada was dominating Russia in SSS (with almost 6 different teams vs 1.5), U-17 (with 5 teams, just as now), U-20 (with some guys staying in the NHL). The most latest results showed that B & B+ teams (not even speaking about C ones) are no longer enough to do that, while A teams aren't available to Hockey Canada. The fact that an OHL squad, Sudbury Wolves, will participate in WC for Junior Clubs says a lot about the current mood in HC's HQ.
If you go back yo why I comment, if was because Malkinfan said that Russin own Canada at the WJC the past 2 seasons. Not to debate who had the superior youth development.
. Then this season NHL pulls out of rematch? Why? Duh- doesn't want to damage the reputation of the NHL losing to KHL teams. I'm not insinuating that KHL is better than NHL, I'm saying that teams like SKA and Traktor could beat just about any NHL team in a one game tilt and I think that Mr. Bettman knows this. He knows that KHL would send their best and chances are that only an average team would be sent from the NHL and it might not end well for them, leaving a bad impression on fans.
Sushinsky is the same case + he's small, that didn't stop him from being on team Russia at 2006 Olympics and beat Canada 2-0 and get 5 points in 8 games.... Maybe the same can be said about Shipachyov or other players. Our Miķelis Rēdlihs also can be called late bloomer, one can see how well he's developed from a player whose only strenth was his speed to a player who know posseses not only speed but a good head and skills too. Like Radulov he's mostly turned into a great playmaker giving stellar passes to whoever can realize them into goals. Few years ago he was just a dumb kid with some serious speed...
