Not sure why you're saying that Jovanovski had a better start than Redden.
Jovanovski didn't become a regular top-pairing defenseman untill his first full season in Vancouver, which was is 5th season. In fact, based on ice time and goals for/against, he was more of a 4/5 guy than a solid top-4 guy in Florida.
Redden was a top pairing guy by his 4th season, and he stepped right in as a top-4 guy.
Redden had some bad seasons at the end of his career, but Jovanovski had some pretty bad ones sprinkled through the middle of his, and he's hardly been holding his prime pace over the last few years.
Redden was able to put all of his good seasons in a row, and then decline after his peak.
Care to elaborate on these "bad seasons" Jovo had? It's pretty easy to throw out claims like that without any substance to back it up.
Plus did you completely ignore Overpass' post on Redden? He was only a top pairing defenseman for 3-4 years.
I've been trying to think of ways Orr revolutionized defense. Everyone who saw him says he did, so I am assuming they are correct.
I think it might have to do with the fact that he became the first defenseman to really become a primary playmaker for his team, rather than the first one to become involved in the rush. I'm not really wording it well though..
I think Ken Dryden put it best in The Game.
Hard to paraphrase, but he said that Orr was thinking both offence and defence all the time. When his team had the puck he would attack and still think defensively. When the other team had the puck he would defend and still think offensively. So he was the best ever at the transition game in both directions, because for him there was actually no transition. It was all the same, all over the ice.
Dryden said other defencemen have tried to imitate Orr's "total hockey", but none have had the skills to play as fast or the head to think as fast, so they all had to be something less and play within the game to some degree. Written in the early 80s, so he would be thinking of Park, Potvin, Lapointe, Robinson, Salming, etc.
I can take it. I love your new avatar btw. Edit: lmao, you forwarded it to me at the same time I was answering
I sent you my pick 728 list. I have made every pick on time so it would be nice to have someone post 1 for me.
Regarding Charlie and the Chocolate Factory: The book and the Gene Wilder film Raptor's avatar is based on are brilliant. The Tim Burton/Johnny Depp version was just plain bad.
Care to elaborate on these "bad seasons" Jovo had? It's pretty easy to throw out claims like that without any substance to back it up.
He missed significant time in 2004, 2006, and 2007. He played pretty well during the games, but he only played like half of each season.
Been on the decline from 2010-present. If he had Redden's contract, he'd be in the minors too.
Quote:
Plus did you completely ignore Overpass' post on Redden? He was only a top pairing defenseman for 3-4 years.
His post was about match-ups, not top pairings.
From 2000 to 2007, Redden led his team in ice time 6 times. He was 2nd to Chara in 2006, but otherwise, he was always first. That's not "top pairing" either, that's "#1 Guy". It wasn't just PP time either - with the exception on 2006, Redden was within a couple seconds of Chara in PK time every season they played together.
Overall, Redden was a top-pairing guy 7 times in Ottawa and once more in New York.
From 2000 to 2007, Redden led his team in ice time 6 times. He was 2nd to Chara in 2006, but otherwise, he was always first. That's not "top pairing" either, that's "#1 Guy". It wasn't just PP time either - with the exception on 2006, Redden was within a couple seconds of Chara in PK time every season they played together.
Overall, Redden was a top-pairing guy 7 times in Ottawa and once more in New York.
Right. Redden was, IMO, a clear #1 from 99-00 to 01-02, and a co-#1 with Chara from 02-03 to 05-06, all on strong teams.
Just because Chara's pairing faced top lines doesn't mean Redden didn't play important minutes. He led the second pairing at ES while playing with Karel Rachunek or a young Andrei Meszaros - not a lot of help there. He was the #1 D on the power play, ahead of Chara. He was on Ottawa's strong top PK unit with Chara before the lockout.
After he left, the Sens really missed his passing on the breakout. He was among the very best in the league at that for years, and Ottawa didn't have anyone who could match that until this season.
Hard to paraphrase, but he said that Orr was thinking both offence and defence all the time. When his team had the puck he would attack and still think defensively. When the other team had the puck he would defend and still think offensively. So he was the best ever at the transition game in both directions, because for him there was actually no transition. It was all the same, all over the ice.
Dryden said other defencemen have tried to imitate Orr's "total hockey", but none have had the skills to play as fast or the head to think as fast, so they all had to be something less and play within the game to some degree. Written in the early 80s, so he would be thinking of Park, Potvin, Lapointe, Robinson, Salming, etc.
Right. Basically Orr played the role of superstar defenseman and superstar center at the exact same time, so it was almost like having an extra player on the ice. Nobody else was able to do that (though I guess you could say Gretzky was so good at what he did, he was as good as having two superstar centers or something).
Hawkey Town picked at 4:04 PM EST
DoMakc skipped at 8:04 PM EST (his clock was almost up when he asked to be skipped apparently so maybe he was really skipped at 7:17 when he asked)
chaos skipped at 12:04 AM EST (or 11:17, it doesn't really matter)
Dwight selects Mickey Redmond, RW
Bugg has already been notified.
Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 03-16-2012 at 12:36 AM.
I don't think there are enough hours in the day to watch every player that often and even if there were, I know a lot of writers don't bother - look at all the times writers can't figure out if a player is a C, LW, or RW in all star voting or how every discussion about the Norris is stats-based. In the Original 6, beat writers traveled with the team, and watched every game (14 games against every opponent) and were buddy-buddy with the hockey establishment, so I think they had a much more accurate picture of the competition based off viewing.
I can't wait to see how many votes Claude Giroux gets for RW during all star balloting. NHL.com still lists him as a RW as does hockey-reference.com Has he even played a shift at RW this year?
They used me as a swing man because I could play all three forward positions, though I spent most of the time on right wing. For a while I was with Ted Lindsay and Gordie Howe, then on a checking line with Marty Pavelich and Tony Leswick, then with Alex Delvecchio and Johnny Wilson
that is strange, it sure doesn't look like he played much RW. Obviously with Lindsay & Howe, he was the Center. Same with Pavelich (LW) and Leswick (W). With Delvecchio (C/LW) and Wilson (LW) he must have been a RW, but that's only one of the three lines he mentioned.
that is strange, it sure doesn't look like he played much RW. Obviously with Lindsay & Howe, he was the Center. Same with Pavelich (LW) and Leswick (W). With Delvecchio (C/LW) and Wilson (LW) he must have been a RW, but that's only one of the three lines he mentioned.
Well this got me interested enough to go look at the game summaries at HSP. I just did one season, but will do the rest tomorrow. Here's what 1952-53 looked like...
Even strength points on the same goal
Howe: 21
Lindsay: 13
Delvecchio: 10
J. Wilson: 7
Going by the game sheets Prystai started off the season with Delvecchio and Wilson, then moved between Lindsay and Howe, then went back to playing with Delvecchio and Wilson.
The numbers make it look like he played a lot more games with Howe and Lindsay, but I think it's closer to even (still slightly in favor of Howe/Lindsay). The reason I think this is because when Prystai got to the time where he appeared to be playing with Delvecchio/Wilson he had a lot more games where he wasn't on the scoresheet at all.
I'm interested to see what results the other seasons will bring, but it will have to wait until tomorrow.
Thanks. I haven't missed 1 pick, I was at the mechanic w/o internet access on my phone, and would have been disappointed if you guys (TDMM, MB, and anyone else I didn't mention) were not so considerate and responsible. Thank you very much.
The Pittsburgh Bankers select C/LW Harry Smith. please pm the next gm up. I think he Harry Smith is good enough offensively to fill in anywere from my 2nd line to my 4th line. sorry guys on my phone
Stoneberg has been pmed. Someone should pm reds4life as well. He has missed 5 or 6 picks.
__________________
Exhibit A as to how hockey doesn't matter on ESPN:
Last night an ESPN program was discussing how the Detroit Pistons needed a hero citing the heroes on the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Lions and no mention of the Detroit Red Wings. All this despite the Red Wings probably being the most succesful team in Detroit right now.
I would think logically that the fact his ice time showed he was better than his actual ability would call that correlation into some question.
You say it averages out, I say what was the context in the other years?
I mean unless we're doing the reputation draft instead of the ability draft, that is..
No, of course it doesn’t work that way (a crappy player getting lots of icetime just because), because the TOI hierarchy on a team is a meritocracy and winning is paramount. Call it the free market at work.
My point isn’t that we should pretend that a player on a steep decline is as good as his TOI seems to indicate (and if the decline is that steep, then this period of incongruity between TOI and ability will be very short), but that the TOI is a reflection of the reputation he earned with his strong play directly before that time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
Bugg's time is up, GMM selects Peter McNabb.
Good one, a legitimate three position forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass
Sorry about bringing up Art Chapman again, but now that Carr is drafted I'll post the one quote I found on Chapman's defensive play.
"(Dutton) figured his high scoring forward trio, Sweeney Schriner, Art Chapman, and Lorne Carr, as considerably improved over a year ago.
Carr, faster and better defensively than either Schriner or Chapman, did comparatively little scoring last season..."
Wow, is that maybe the first ever tidbit we’ve read about how Carr actually played? All I ever knew about him was his scoring stats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99
The Pittsburgh Bankers select C/LW Harry Smith. please pm the next gm up. I think he Harry Smith is good enough offensively to fill in anywere from my 2nd line to my 4th line. sorry guys on my phone
Iain Fyffe thinks he should be in the HHOF. He’s certainly a good enough goal scorer to get there.
Here's what Metro Prystai's time in Detroit looked like for 4 seasons available on HSP... Even strength points on the same goal
1952-53
Howe: 21
Lindsay: 13
Delvecchio: 10
J. Wilson: 7
Going by the game sheets Prystai started off the season at RW with Delvecchio and Wilson, then moved to C between Lindsay and Howe, then went back to playing with Delvecchio and Wilson.
The numbers make it look like he played a lot more games with Howe and Lindsay, but I think it's closer to even (still slightly in favor of Howe/Lindsay). The reason I think this is because when Prystai got to the time where he appeared to be playing with Delvecchio/Wilson he had a lot more games where he wasn't on the scoresheet at all.
1953-54
J. Wilson: 10
Delvecchio: 7
4 Others: 1
Looks like he played RW with Delvecchio and Wilson for a good majority of the season
Looks like Prystai played the first half of the season at RW with Ullman and Pavelich, and then spent the second half at RW with Delvecchio and Ferguson
Here it looks like he spent most of the season at C between Pavelich and Fergusson, then spent the last part of the season jumping around to some other lines.
Conclusion: Most of the quote we have from Prystai is backed up here. The only thing that stands out is that he said he played with Leswick and I found no ES points with him. It should be noted, however, that there was no HSP data for his first 2 full seasons in Detroit.
With pick 732 Garnish selects the first of its defensive spares by selecting Dave Babych:
I'm glad he's a spare, because I was researching the Top 25 Scoring Dmen yesterday, and it's probably just because he played for bad teams, but I think if he was your #6, guys would try to use his -223 against you.
Here's what Metro Prystai's time in Detroit looked like for 4 seasons available on HSP... Even strength points on the same goal
1952-53
Howe: 21
Lindsay: 13
Delvecchio: 10
J. Wilson: 7
Going by the game sheets Prystai started off the season at RW with Delvecchio and Wilson, then moved to C between Lindsay and Howe, then went back to playing with Delvecchio and Wilson.
The numbers make it look like he played a lot more games with Howe and Lindsay, but I think it's closer to even (still slightly in favor of Howe/Lindsay). The reason I think this is because when Prystai got to the time where he appeared to be playing with Delvecchio/Wilson he had a lot more games where he wasn't on the scoresheet at all.
1953-54
J. Wilson: 10
Delvecchio: 7
4 Others: 1
Looks like he played RW with Delvecchio and Wilson for a good majority of the season
Looks like Prystai played the first half of the season at RW with Ullman and Pavelich, and then spent the second half at RW with Delvecchio and Ferguson
Here it looks like he spent most of the season at C between Pavelich and Fergusson, then spent the last part of the season jumping around to some other lines.
Conclusion: Most of the quote we have from Prystai is backed up here. The only thing that stands out is that he said he played with Leswick and I found no ES points with him. It should be noted, however, that there was no HSP data for his first 2 full seasons in Detroit.
So he should at least be listed as a C/RW
Do we have any source that he can play LW other than his own word on it?
I'm glad he's a spare, because I was researching the Top 25 Scoring Dmen yesterday, and it's probably just because he played for bad teams, but I think if he was your #6, guys would try to use his -223 against you.
Yeah, I don't now about Babych being a "two-way" defenseman. Great offensive guy though.
I'm glad he's a spare, because I was researching the Top 25 Scoring Dmen yesterday, and it's probably just because he played for bad teams, but I think if he was your #6, guys would try to use his -223 against you.
Yeah he'll just be a spare in this who can step in and play on the power play if need be.
Here's what Metro Prystai's time in Detroit looked like for 4 seasons available on HSP... Even strength points on the same goal
1952-53
Howe: 21
Lindsay: 13
Delvecchio: 10
J. Wilson: 7
Going by the game sheets Prystai started off the season at RW with Delvecchio and Wilson, then moved to C between Lindsay and Howe, then went back to playing with Delvecchio and Wilson.
The numbers make it look like he played a lot more games with Howe and Lindsay, but I think it's closer to even (still slightly in favor of Howe/Lindsay). The reason I think this is because when Prystai got to the time where he appeared to be playing with Delvecchio/Wilson he had a lot more games where he wasn't on the scoresheet at all.
1953-54
J. Wilson: 10
Delvecchio: 7
4 Others: 1
Looks like he played RW with Delvecchio and Wilson for a good majority of the season
Looks like Prystai played the first half of the season at RW with Ullman and Pavelich, and then spent the second half at RW with Delvecchio and Ferguson
Here it looks like he spent most of the season at C between Pavelich and Fergusson, then spent the last part of the season jumping around to some other lines.
Conclusion: Most of the quote we have from Prystai is backed up here. The only thing that stands out is that he said he played with Leswick and I found no ES points with him. It should be noted, however, that there was no HSP data for his first 2 full seasons in Detroit.
Good research.
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Made Me
I'm glad he's a spare, because I was researching the Top 25 Scoring Dmen yesterday, and it's probably just because he played for bad teams, but I think if he was your #6, guys would try to use his -223 against you.
He was far from polished defensively for the majority of his career, but he also wasn't as bad as that number would indicate. Throughout much of the 90s I remember him being known as more of a "solid veteran" as opposed to an "offensive specialist" like he may have been before.
He was thrust into the NHL to be a #1 defenseman for the worst team in the league immediately after being drafted. If that's not a recipe for a -60 season, I don't know what is! For his first 4 years, he was Winnipeg's #1 defenseman by TOI, by margins of 4-5 minutes.
Interesting stat: Babych had five straight seasons where he was both in the top-10 for total goals on ice for, and total goals on ice against... that is probably a record!
He was a 20+ minute defenseman every season right through 1997, and averaged an impressive 23.62 in his career for 1195 games. His teams were about 8% below average. (and look how many times he made the palyoffs! that's the 1980s for ya)
As far as 1000-game big minute offensive defensemen go, he's a solid pick now. there is one that comes to mind that I'd definitely take before him but no one else comes to mind.
Do we have any source that he can play LW other than his own word on it?
There is no evidence from looking at those four years in Detroit on HSP, but I did find this quote through Google archives...
Chicago Tribune - Oct. 25, 1955
Quote:
Owner Jim Norris moved yesterday to strengthen the Chicago Black Hawks hockey team as he announced the trade of Metro Prystai, 28, a left wing, to the Detroit Red Wings for Ed Sandford, 27, also a left wing.
