Chicago, the Pens, Rangers and Bruins are good because they supplement homegrown talent with aggresssive trades and free agent signings. Chara, Hossa,Sharp, Gaborik, Richards, Neal...I could go further but the point is there needs to be a willingness to skashake things up and rol the dice as a core gets older and prospects are either not ready or unable to fill significant roles as older players decline. You have to give up something get a James Neal. Holland is essentially standing pat and this team continues to get older.
Chicago, the Pens, Rangers and Bruins are good because they supplement homegrown talent with aggresssive trades and free agent signings. Chara, Hossa,Sharp, Gaborik, Richards, Neal...I could go further but the point is there needs to be a willingness to skashake things up and rol the dice as a core gets older and prospects are either not ready or unable to fill significant roles as older players decline. You have to give up something get a James Neal. Holland is essentially standing pat and this team continues to get older.
And your contention is that Holland won't be aggressive in free agency getting pieces (like he did with Rafalski and trading for Stuart) because you're operating under the guise that Holland has needed (or had the opportunity) to do that in every year?
I understand people's frustrations that Holland wasn't 'creative' or whatever, but this team has been really, really, really actually **** that. They've been the best team in the league bar none since the lockout. Holland hasn't had to. Is next year different? Absolutely. Especially since Lidstrom is retiring soon. Hell, maybe Brendan Smith can be that top pairing replacement.
I'm willing to give a benefit of a doubt where others haven't because I don't crave that instant gratification at all times. I think Holland needs to improve the team, but I also think he will because we've been so successful for so long. No other team measures up.
You can't splurge every year, though, and you can't fill out your roster with cheap UFA every year. At some point, you're either going to cap yourself out, or you're not going to develop any talent of your own because you're always bringing in outside help.
I realize we can't splurge every year or on every player. I'm only saying there is a time and place and the iron appears hot.
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It seems there is this ideal hockey team everyone has in mind, and Holland is criticized for not operating in an ideal world.
Ok, but generally the first rebuttal to criticism of Holland is that he has put us in such an ideal position going forward.
I hear ya, the universe doesn't always cooperate. Parise and Suter might not even hit UFA. But if their rights are being shopped and Holland doesn't get involved out of principle, or he balks at $1mil more on the cap, I think that is unacceptable.
Does Detroit NEED to add Parise or Suter to get great again? No. It would help for sure. Holland needs to improve the team, there's no question.
you may be underestimating the effect of Lidstrom. if he retires, Smith won't ****ing cutting it. well there is always a chance. But why take the chance? when you don't have to?
you keep saying like people say we need to get a super star in compensation for Lidstrom's retirement is not preferable.
please give me one good reason why having a parise or suter at crazy cost is bad for this team. I will give you two reasons why it is not.
And your contention is that Holland won't be aggressive in free agency getting pieces (like he did with Rafalski and trading for Stuart) because you're operating under the guise that Holland has needed (or had the opportunity) to do that in every year?
I understand people's frustrations that Holland wasn't 'creative' or whatever, but this team has been really, really, really actually **** that. They've been the best team in the league bar none since the lockout. Holland hasn't had to. Is next year different? Absolutely. Especially since Lidstrom is retiring soon. Hell, maybe Brendan Smith can be that top pairing replacement.
I'm willing to give a benefit of a doubt where others haven't because I don't crave that instant gratification at all times. I think Holland needs to improve the team, but I also think he will because we've been so successful for so long. No other team measures up.
uh, are you saying you know what Holland is up to and he is not going to overpay to get his hands on one of the star?
you might be surprised you aren't the only one who give benefit of doubt to Holland but I do too.
And your contention is that Holland won't be aggressive in free agency getting pieces (like he did with Rafalski and trading for Stuart) because you're operating under the guise that Holland has needed (or had the opportunity) to do that in every year?
I understand people's frustrations that Holland wasn't 'creative' or whatever, but this team has been really, really, really actually **** that. They've been the best team in the league bar none since the lockout. Holland hasn't had to. Is next year different? Absolutely. Especially since Lidstrom is retiring soon. Hell, maybe Brendan Smith can be that top pairing replacement.
I'm willing to give a benefit of a doubt where others haven't because I don't crave that instant gratification at all times. I think Holland needs to improve the team, but I also think he will because we've been so successful for so long. No other team measures up.
first off, no its not doom and gloom for the red wings to the EXACT same extent its not all rainbows and unicorns. Any team whos best dman is 41 and best player is 34 is in very very very serious trouble in a cap league where 95% of the leagues premier players are under 27 years of age. The fact that after them their is a huge drop off should be very alarming.
second, can people shut the F. up about rafalski and stuart. in pro sports those moves might as well have been decades ago as they're irrevelant now as the league has changed so much since then. its almost as pathetic as Leaf fans talking about how many cups they have won. get over it, it dosent matter whatsoever anymore and dosent prove Holland or his mgmt staff were aggressive once so will be again.
third, people need to stop assuming we will sign Parise or Suter and that it will be the answer to our problems moving forward. Their is no guarntee when you play the UFA game and it simply creates a false sense of security. At absolute best, their is about a 20% change Suter dosent resign in nashville and maybe a 35% chance Parise dosent resign in NJ. History dictates most top UFA's do indeed resign with the clubs that drafted and developed them espescially when those clubs are good to great.
fourth, losing cleary or bertuzzi shouldnt have any significant effect and the only reason it has is because it came while Lidstrom and Datsyuk were out. Neither of them are elite players, they are depth forwards and nothing more.
you may be underestimating the effect of Lidstrom. if he retires, Smith won't ****ing cutting it. well there is always a chance. But why take the chance? when you don't have to?
you keep saying like people say we need to get a super star in compensation for Lidstrom's retirement is not preferable.
please give me one good reason why having a parise or suter at crazy cost is bad for this team. I will give you two reasons why it is not.
Depends what the crazy cost is. I don't think 7-8m for Parise or Suter is crazy. But 9m? 10m? that can really cause issues. Just because the Wings have the cap space to sign someone to a huge mega deal THIS season doesn't mean it's best for the future.
third, people need to stop assuming we will sign Parise or Suter and that it will be the answer to our problems moving forward. Their is no guarntee when you play the UFA game and it simply creates a false sense of security. At absolute best, their is about a 20% change Suter dosent resign in nashville and maybe a 35% chance Parise dosent resign in NJ. History dictates most top UFA's do indeed resign with the clubs that drafted and developed them espescially when those clubs are good to great.
I think people realize it is unlikely to get hands on either one of them. We all been saying that from begining of this season. I think it is you who are assuming.
It's just that if there is a chance, we shouldn't let it go by by sticking to 'fair money' BS.
I realize we can't splurge every year or on every player. I'm only saying there is a time and place and the iron appears hot.
Ok, but generally the first rebuttal to criticism of Holland is that he has put us in such an ideal position going forward.
I hear ya, the universe doesn't always cooperate. Parise and Suter might not even hit UFA. But if their rights are being shopped and Holland doesn't get involved out of principle, or he balks at $1mil more on the cap, I think that is unacceptable.
And it's a fair rebuttal. Holland has put the Wings in a good position moving forward, not just to pursue a guy like Parise or Suter, but in case we don't get them, too. People bag on Quincey a lot lately, but look at the rest of the UFA D after Suter, and there's not a whole lot there. Carle, Jackman, maybe Wideman, and there's no guarantee that they'll hit the market, either.
I don't mean to lump you in with this, but I get the impression that there is a sentiment that it's "Get this guy or bust" in regards to Suter and Parise. There has to be a point, though, where just one more million is one million too much. That's what I'm trying to get at, there has to be limits, but I get the impression that Holland's damned regardless of what happens, or what these guys sign for, unless at least one of them signs here. And those are just unfair standards to judge the guy, or his actions, by.
my english maybe failing me but then why you keep saying you 'give benefit of doubt' and all that when you try to defend idea?
By giving the benefit of the doubt, I mean that I trust that Holland will do the right thing for the team more times than not because he has such a long history of putting the team in the best position to win.
Some members of the forum take that as me saying that I'm blindly following Holland believe everything he does is perfect and makes no mistakes. While that isn't true, the only to demonstrate that apparently is to have 8,000 posts being a debbie downer.
I don't believe Holland's goal is to keep the team the exact same way and not improve it. But I do believe that Holland thinks the majority of the improvements need to be made within the organization. Just like when in the '90s the team had to be improved within. Sure, the Shanahan deal was a catalyst and jump started everything. I'd love to see an equally powerful deal made again.
But Suter or Parise alone isn't going to get us where we want to go.
Depends what the crazy cost is. I don't think 7-8m for Parise or Suter is crazy. But 9m? 10m? that can really cause issues. Just because the Wings have the cap space to sign someone to a huge mega deal THIS season doesn't mean it's best for the future.
I see, so you dont think this offseason is as important as some of others might think.
Well, why not? I think this seasons is one of the most important one in... I dont know for how many years it has been.
I think people realize it is unlikely to get hands on either one of them. We all been saying that from begining of this season. I think it is you who are assuming.
It's just that if there is a chance, we shouldn't let it go by by sticking to 'fair money' BS.
sorry what?
i am not assuming anything, i am going by what has happened before.
i have been against the whole "why trade assets" when you can "sign parise or suter in july" bit from the beginning, its wrong and a desperate approach. it would be wonderful if it were to happen but thats all.
sorry but i dont agree with you at all that "so many people here realize it is unlikely", all i here/read is excuses why we shouldnt make trades or why its great we didnt or shouldnt over spend on a ufa either before or this coming summer, and really not a whole lot more actual thougt out logic.
yes if parise is available we should overspend
yes if suter is available we should overspend
but we shouldnt be in the position to begin with to have to
I see, so you dont think this offseason is as important as some of others might think.
Well, why not? I think this seasons is one of the most important one in... I dont know for how many years it has been.
I don't know what you mean. Are you suggesting that the only way to make sure this offseason is deemed important is to get in some huge bidding war and sign a Parise or Suter to one of the largest deals in NHL history?
I think the offseason where Lidstrom retires will be one of the most important offseasons ever. I don't think Lidstrom retiring means we have to go nuts and sign Suter to a deal that makes him the highest paid defensemen in NHL history.
By giving the benefit of the doubt, I mean that I trust that Holland will do the right thing for the team more times than not because he has such a long history of putting the team in the best position to win.
Some members of the forum take that as me saying that I'm blindly following Holland believe everything he does is perfect and makes no mistakes. While that isn't true, the only to demonstrate that apparently is to have 8,000 posts being a debbie downer.
I don't believe Holland's goal is to keep the team the exact same way and not improve it. But I do believe that Holland thinks the majority of the improvements need to be made within the organization. Just like when in the '90s the team had to be improved within. Sure, the Shanahan deal was a catalyst and jump started everything. I'd love to see an equally powerful deal made again.
But Suter or Parise alone isn't going to get us where we want to go.
while I agree with it, I think you are assuming as much as anyone of us as to how much he is craving suter or any parise this offseason. I, for one, believe he is always holding his cards close to his chest and always believed in big talent. he just hasn't had to make the deal. He is also very big on solid defence.
Like Holland said after the deadline. 'The time is now'
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Originally Posted by Heaton
I don't know what you mean. Are you suggesting that the only way to make sure this offseason is deemed important is to get in some huge bidding war and sign a Parise or Suter to one of the largest deals in NHL history?
I think the offseason where Lidstrom retires will be one of the most important offseasons ever. I don't think Lidstrom retiring means we have to go nuts and sign Suter to a deal that makes him the highest paid defensemen in NHL history.
how do you know Lidstrom is not retiring after this season? what if he retires next season? why not get their half an hour earlier and give yourself some room?
What I'm calling for is a proactive action. Realistically, we won't be able to get any of any super stars this season or next. why not work on it from this season?
i am not assuming anything, i am going by what has happened before.
i have been against the whole "why trade assets" when you can "sign parise or suter in july" bit from the beginning, its wrong and a desperate approach. it would be wonderful if it were to happen but thats all.
sorry but i dont agree with you at all that "so many people here realize it is unlikely", all i here/read is excuses why we shouldnt make trades or why its great we didnt or shouldnt over spend on a ufa either before or this coming summer, and really not a whole lot more actual thougt out logic.
yes if parise is available we should overspend
yes if suter is available we should overspend
but we shouldnt be in the position to begin with to have to
well i guess it's a misunderstanding then. it's not even worth talking about it anyway.
I want Backstrom. Holland's an idiot if he doesn't get him.
Which one? One is a starting goalie which we don't need, the other is a young superstar that Washington isn't going to be willing to give up for anything that we could offer, though I would do Zetterberg straight up for him
Which one? One is a starting goalie which we don't need, the other is a young superstar that Washington isn't going to be willing to give up for anything that we could offer, though I would do Zetterberg straight up for him
He's joking. He's mocking people that demand we get unrealistic players and will subsequently blame Holland for events out of his control.
The fact remains Parise and Suter will CHOOSE their team. And they may not choose the Wings. Nothing Holland can do will change that. Brad Richards, for example, had already picked the New York Rangers long before free agency. He tested the waters, for one day, and decided to go with his first choice all along.
Parise and Suter also have in mind where they actually want to go. And no matter what team they pick, they will get a career contract. It might vary a few million here or there, but the end result will be Parise's and Suter's grandchildren's children will have a sizable trust fund.
Depends what the crazy cost is. I don't think 7-8m for Parise or Suter is crazy. But 9m? 10m? that can really cause issues. Just because the Wings have the cap space to sign someone to a huge mega deal THIS season doesn't mean it's best for the future.
I hope people understand that no team will pay Parise or Suter that much money. Brad Richards makes $12 mill a year or something but his CAP HIT is $7.5 or so. The only players with cap hits over $8.5 are Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin. Not a chance in hell that Parise signs a contract with a cap hit higher than $8 and same with Suter. They will get 4-5 offers that are very similar in length and price and will choose the team that they want to go play for.
That is where I think it would be a good idea to have a backup plan like go big for Suter and try and get Doan to sign a very friendly contract for a year or two. Parise would be great, but this team can score through four lines. Doan could pay off in the playoffs more.
