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Habs lose in shootout. Get a Point. Everyone is pissed.

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Old
03-18-2012, 12:47 PM
  #151
Watsatheo
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
You're right I need to step back right now. Whatever, people will always find things to criticize Subban for, even though they are his strenghts. I will never get used to it though.
How is it criticizing? One guy says this,

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Originally Posted by Toastman View Post
Anyone else agree that Subban is the best skating defenceman in the league or at least up there. Hes so fluid when he skates with the puck
...and a few people disagree and say why.

It's not like they are saying Subban can't skate.

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03-18-2012, 12:48 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
what do you expect, the guy cost us a huge point last night due to said skating ability
Depending on which way you look at it, that he did. Thanks I needed a bone.

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03-18-2012, 12:50 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by ForeverAlone View Post
After reading your post I have no choice but to come out and say that I hate Plekanec because Pacioretty has a better shot than him.
Not sure I follow your logic though, I never said I hated Emelin or anything negative about him. I found it totally whack though that we are comparing Subban's skating to his, that comparison is really a strange one. I bet no one ever watched a Habs game and said to themselves "boy that Emelin guy is a speedster, wow, what a fantastic skater!!" and that's what I argued. Dude's probably laughing in his pants that I had to go through such hoops for this. Although, I don't really have anything better to do right now on a sunday :-o

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03-18-2012, 01:07 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Not sure I follow your logic though, I never said I hated Emelin or anything negative about him. I found it totally whack though that we are comparing Subban's skating to his, that comparison is really a strange one. I bet no one ever watched a Habs game and said to themselves "boy that Emelin guy is a speedster, wow, what a fantastic skater!!" and that's what I argued. Dude's probably laughing in his pants that I had to go through such hoops for this. Although, I don't really have anything better to do right now on a sunday :-o
First of all, just because people think that Emelin is a better skater than Subban doesn't mean they're criticizing him or even worse, hating on him.

Second, Being a speedster has nothing to do with skating ability. Gomez is one of the worst skaters, yet one of the fastest guys on the team.

Emelin's skating is way more fluid and he has a better technique than Subban, but Subban is way more explosive and agile. Subban's skating and even stick handling are not fluid, but he's hard to stop.

Edit: Subban would make such an amazing power forward, too bad he's already a hell of a defenseman.

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03-18-2012, 01:10 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Not sure I follow your logic though, I never said I hated Emelin or anything negative about him. I found it totally whack though that we are comparing Subban's skating to his, that comparison is really a strange one. I bet no one ever watched a Habs game and said to themselves "boy that Emelin guy is a speedster, wow, what a fantastic skater!!" and that's what I argued. Dude's probably laughing in his pants that I had to go through such hoops for this. Although, I don't really have anything better to do right now on a sunday :-o
I think he was being sarcastic and agreeing that pumping up one player doesn't mean another players sucks or that comparing two players doesn't diminish either one. I think.

After the game, despite that pesky PK/Leblanc play, I was also reminded of what a great mobile defenceman we have.

On HIO Hickey said that his friend Gagnon (Francois) suggested that he's trade PK for Staal in a heartbeat. Why does Hickey associate with that cretin and even more refer to him as being a great mind? PH seems rational enough and pretty much on par with HF majority opinions.

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Old
03-18-2012, 01:11 PM
  #156
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I think the best asset we acquired was Calgary's 2013 2nd round pick. Sad.

And I like Holland

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03-18-2012, 01:12 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
I think the best asset we acquired was Calgary's 2013 2nd round pick. Sad.

And I like Holland
As I've said before, how many empty nets has Bourque missed? Do you know how much that translates into a Grigorenko or Galchenyuk?

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03-18-2012, 01:14 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
As I've said before, how many empty nets has Bourque missed? Do you know how much that translates into a Grigorenko or Galchenyuk?
Tank god Bourque.

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03-18-2012, 01:19 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
As I've said before, how many empty nets has Bourque missed? Do you know how much that translates into a Grigorenko or Galchenyuk?
Natural Born Tankers

Can someone photoshop that onto this movie poster

Rene Bourque


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Old
03-18-2012, 01:46 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
As I've said before, how many empty nets has Bourque missed? Do you know how much that translates into a Grigorenko or Galchenyuk?
That's a bizarre way of looking at it. I'd prefer if you had said that every win for a non-playoff team (other than the Habs) is useful. Why single out Bourque? The same result would be achieved by a missed net by Pacioretty or by dressing a total of 11 skaters for a game.

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03-18-2012, 01:54 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
How is it criticizing? One guy says this,



...and a few people disagree and say why.

It's not like they are saying Subban can't skate.
I can understand why people would disagree about Subban. From my own uniformed view, I'd describe him as one of the most mobile d in the league, but not necessarily one of the absolute top "skaters". His top speed isn't world beating, what he has in an incredible first step in almost any direction, literally able to change direction and/or accelerate in a 360 degree arc. Combine that with above-average quickness, incredible athleticism and co-ordination (especially puck control) and almost complete fearlessless and you get a guy who moves on the ice as well as anyone. But at the same time, he's not Paul Coffey out there.

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03-18-2012, 02:04 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Bullsmith View Post
I can understand why people would disagree about Subban. From my own uniformed view, I'd describe him as one of the most mobile d in the league, but not necessarily one of the absolute top "skaters". His top speed isn't world beating, what he has in an incredible first step in almost any direction, literally able to change direction and/or accelerate in a 360 degree arc. Combine that with above-average quickness, incredible athleticism and co-ordination (especially puck control) and almost complete fearlessless and you get a guy who moves on the ice as well as anyone. But at the same time, he's not Paul Coffey out there.
I agree with your assessment of his physical attributes. Before we accord him greatness we have to look at his decision making. He's not quite there yet.

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Old
03-18-2012, 04:26 PM
  #163
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No I agree getting traded to a team fighting for a lottery pick is a great motivator. Funny how the same "brain trust" who rip on kaberle are moving onto bourque. No wonder habs fans are so widely laughed at, know something about the game please.
People laugh at us because we consistently defend dumb trades... No matter how obviously bad it is, some folks just can't admit that we got hosed. Kaberle was dumb. Bourque was dumb. Folks are just now starting to find out how dumb it was.

And anyone who knows anything about the game knows that Bourque sucked before he got here and has sucked since...

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03-18-2012, 04:46 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullsmith View Post
I can understand why people would disagree about Subban. From my own uniformed view, I'd describe him as one of the most mobile d in the league, but not necessarily one of the absolute top "skaters". His top speed isn't world beating, what he has in an incredible first step in almost any direction, literally able to change direction and/or accelerate in a 360 degree arc. Combine that with above-average quickness, incredible athleticism and co-ordination (especially puck control) and almost complete fearlessless and you get a guy who moves on the ice as well as anyone. But at the same time, he's not Paul Coffey out there.
This.

If there is one thing about Subban that dominates league wide it's this ability, his ability to pivot on a dime and explode in any direction. When PK is on his game (as he has been for the past few months) he is one of the most effective defenseman in the league behind his net and along the boards because of this above mentioned ability. He is incredibly strong to start off with, but he has the ability to seperate himself from the forwards rapidly and to recover rapidly if he loses the battle (which is not often). He also loves to draw forecheckers in and ultimately trap them between himself and the net as he skates off in the opposite direction, it's one of his many tricks he uses on a nightly basis out there.

Emelin might have a more visually appealing skating stride, but he is no where near as effective when you look at the complete mobility package. Subban is one of the most mobile D-men in the league, despite not having an "extra gear" a guy like Campbell has. Above average top speed, but explosive acceleration, agility and balance.

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Old
03-18-2012, 05:11 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
People laugh at us because we consistently defend dumb trades... No matter how obviously bad it is, some folks just can't admit that we got hosed. Kaberle was dumb. Bourque was dumb. Folks are just now starting to find out how dumb it was.

And anyone who knows anything about the game knows that Bourque sucked before he got here and has sucked since...
The only way this trade ends up helping us is if we sign a big UFA thanks to some of the cap space it freed up. Similar to the Gomez deal except it was done differently. The difference is that instead of moving one salary, we moved two. Bourque came our way, AK went to Nashville, that evens it out and opens up the full release from Cammy's hit.

So, as I said, just like the Gomez trade in NYR enabled them to sign Gaborik, if we get to make a big key signing. That trade becomes a lot easier to understand. If nothing is done this summer however, then it is essentially useless, unless of course Bourque scores his 25-30G and Holland develops well.

In terms of helping the team this year however, that trade was weak.

I've never been a fan of Bourque myself, and he's been completely uninspired outside his first game. But I don't think RC has used him well, like most of our players anyways.

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03-18-2012, 05:54 PM
  #166
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Cammalleri and Bourque are similar in the sense both play as if they're hiding in a closet

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03-18-2012, 06:20 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
That's a bizarre way of looking at it. I'd prefer if you had said that every win for a non-playoff team (other than the Habs) is useful. Why single out Bourque? The same result would be achieved by a missed net by Pacioretty or by dressing a total of 11 skaters for a game.
wut?


a) I was joking
b) he is singled out because the game has been on his stick many times and thus he has "saved us" from getting too many points.
c) yeah it WOULD be the same result if Pacioretty wasn't on fire atm. As for dressing 11 skaters, it doesn't seem to be hurting us either in the point streak dept. What has led to some blatant changes in outcomes are Bourque's unbelievable unclutchness.

Did you actually think that I thought PG traded for Bourque in order for him to miss empty nets thus causing us to tank? It just conveniently worked out that way.

Also, every win for a non-playoff team (other than the Habs) is useful.

There, I have stated the incredibly obvious.

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Old
03-18-2012, 06:29 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The only way this trade ends up helping us is if we sign a big UFA thanks to some of the cap space it freed up. Similar to the Gomez deal except it was done differently. The difference is that instead of moving one salary, we moved two. Bourque came our way, AK went to Nashville, that evens it out and opens up the full release from Cammy's hit.

So, as I said, just like the Gomez trade in NYR enabled them to sign Gaborik, if we get to make a big key signing. That trade becomes a lot easier to understand. If nothing is done this summer however, then it is essentially useless, unless of course Bourque scores his 25-30G and Holland develops well.

In terms of helping the team this year however, that trade was weak.

I've never been a fan of Bourque myself, and he's been completely uninspired outside his first game. But I don't think RC has used him well, like most of our players anyways.
It's not just that we stuck ourselves with Bourque though. It's the opportunity cost of having wasted a trade asset. Yes, the cap space helps but we could've probably freed up some cap space and traded for a pick or prospect instead. That's the real loss on this trade. Not only did we fail to get what we needed, we stuck ourselves with Bourque. The 2nd is nice but not getting a 1st in unforgivable.

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03-18-2012, 07:25 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's not just that we stuck ourselves with Bourque though. It's the opportunity cost of having wasted a trade asset. Yes, the cap space helps but we could've probably freed up some cap space and traded for a pick or prospect instead. That's the real loss on this trade. Not only did we fail to get what we needed, we stuck ourselves with Bourque. The 2nd is nice but not getting a 1st in unforgivable.
Yes, I agree with that. The timing wasn't right. Where Gauthier succeeded with Gill, he failed with Cammy and AK.

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03-18-2012, 07:33 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's not just that we stuck ourselves with Bourque though. It's the opportunity cost of having wasted a trade asset. Yes, the cap space helps but we could've probably freed up some cap space and traded for a pick or prospect instead. That's the real loss on this trade. Not only did we fail to get what we needed, we stuck ourselves with Bourque. The 2nd is nice but not getting a 1st in unforgivable.
I think you are seriously over evaluating Cammys worth and the fact that at $6M he is not an asset...he's a liability.

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03-18-2012, 07:45 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
People laugh at us because we consistently defend dumb trades... No matter how obviously bad it is, some folks just can't admit that we got hosed. Kaberle was dumb. Bourque was dumb. Folks are just now starting to find out how dumb it was.

And anyone who knows anything about the game knows that Bourque sucked before he got here and has sucked since...
Don't get his intervention. We are being laughed at 'cause we bash our trades? Again....how many freakin trades did not deserve to be bashed? We keep going back to the Rivet trade for one that we won. If somebody is being laughed at is this organization for not learning from their mistakes or from making bad trades etc.

What we are being really laughed at his for our double standards. Yet, I'm pretty sure it's not solely about the Habs. I know another fanbase who does it quite often too....But most fanbases are the same in that department. Just that, when we do, we are more doing it.

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03-18-2012, 08:12 PM
  #172
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I think you are seriously over evaluating Cammys worth and the fact that at $6M he is not an asset...he's a liability.
Look at the return Gill and Gaustad brought. Surely Cammy could have gotten us more.

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03-18-2012, 08:47 PM
  #173
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Look at the return Gill and Gaustad brought. Surely Cammy could have gotten us more.
You know why Gill and Gaustad got better return than Kostitsyn and Cammy? Because GM's arent affraid to pay a little more not to get a lazy bum like the last 2.

Nobody wanted Cammy and nobody wanted Kostitsyn., get over it people.

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03-18-2012, 08:57 PM
  #174
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I think you are seriously over evaluating Cammys worth and the fact that at $6M he is not an asset...he's a liability.
There's no way he's not worth a first rounder for a club that is fighting for a playoff spot or going into the postseason with scoring needs. As for his 6 million, we could've taken some payroll back to balance it out. There's no excuse to get the return that we did. It's okay to dump Gill for a second. But the return we got on Cammy was a disgrace.
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Don't get his intervention. We are being laughed at 'cause we bash our trades? Again....how many freakin trades did not deserve to be bashed? We keep going back to the Rivet trade for one that we won. If somebody is being laughed at is this organization for not learning from their mistakes or from making bad trades etc.

What we are being really laughed at his for our double standards. Yet, I'm pretty sure it's not solely about the Habs. I know another fanbase who does it quite often too....But most fanbases are the same in that department. Just that, when we do, we are more doing it.
Not too many unfortunately. It's just plain sad.
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You know why Gill and Gaustad got better return than Kostitsyn and Cammy? Because GM's arent affraid to pay a little more not to get a lazy bum like the last 2.

Nobody wanted Cammy and nobody wanted Kostitsyn., get over it people.
BS. The day after Cammy's comments all kinds of analysts were talking about how many teams could use him. Then we dumped him (midway through a freaking game) less than 24 hours after his comments. We didn't shop him around at all and then we stuck ourselves with a useless player and a 2nd. Absolutely pathetic.

As for AK, well you're one for two. Nobody wanted him. Then again us playing him 5 mins a game when we should've been showcasing him had something to do with that. WTF are we thinking threatening publicly to bench him immediately before shopping him around? Is anyone surprised that this guy is doing well in Nashiville? Once again, this was not a trade... this was us dumping a player. We did it for little return and should've just re-signed him.

Why does this need to be explained to you though? I mean, can't you see this for yourself? Can't you spot a bad GM when you see one? Do you remember Houle? Are you old enough to remember his terrible moves? If so ask yourself... why did you defend his trades? There's no doubt in my mind that you did if you're sitting here defending this crap.


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03-18-2012, 09:02 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's not just that we stuck ourselves with Bourque though. It's the opportunity cost of having wasted a trade asset. Yes, the cap space helps but we could've probably freed up some cap space and traded for a pick or prospect instead. That's the real loss on this trade. Not only did we fail to get what we needed, we stuck ourselves with Bourque. The 2nd is nice but not getting a 1st in unforgivable.

Our GM does not make hockey moves, at least in the sense of evaluating strengths and weaknesses and incrementally strengthening the team. Our GM primarily enters trade talks when he wants to rid himself of a player.

Halak
Cammy
D'agostini
S.Kost
A.Kost
Obyrne

Before that Grabovski and Ribeiro

It's hard to enter into a mutually beneficial trade or even one where you improve your team dramatically through a "win" when you're minded to get rid of an asset and little else.

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