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goalie situation as we approach the deadline

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Old
02-14-2006, 11:15 AM
  #1
Mr Sakich
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goalie situation as we approach the deadline

It looks like Edmonton may be the only team looking for a #1 guy. There are a few teams like Vancouver who may be looking for a back-up. The recent play of Auld, Abesher, Grahamme, and Huet have taken the pressure off their GM's to fix a huge problem.

Am I crazy or is the goalie market going to be a buyers market as we approach the deadline?

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02-14-2006, 02:34 PM
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loudi94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
It looks like Edmonton may be the only team looking for a #1 guy. There are a few teams like Vancouver who may be looking for a back-up. The recent play of Auld, Abesher, Grahamme, and Huet have taken the pressure off their GM's to fix a huge problem.

Am I crazy or is the goalie market going to be a buyers market as we approach the deadline?
If any of the teams above have aspirations of a long playoff run, they'll need to upgrade their goaltending. Montreal has no cup hopes, so they can go with Huet.

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Old
02-14-2006, 02:59 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
It looks like Edmonton may be the only team looking for a #1 guy. There are a few teams like Vancouver who may be looking for a back-up. The recent play of Auld, Abesher, Grahamme, and Huet have taken the pressure off their GM's to fix a huge problem.

Am I crazy or is the goalie market going to be a buyers market as we approach the deadline?
If any of the teams above have aspirations of a long playoff run, they'll need to upgrade their goaltending. Montreal has no cup hopes, so they can go with Huet.

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02-14-2006, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loudi94
If any of the teams above have aspirations of a long playoff run, they'll need to upgrade their goaltending. Montreal has no cup hopes, so they can go with Huet.
I've got to disagree with that. Over the last month, Grahame has been one of the best goaltenders in the league. Auld and Huet have done very well themselves.

There is something to be said for veteran, proven experience in goal. *But* it's also important to remember that unproven or less than spectacular goaltenders - Kipper last season in the case of the former, guys like Patrick Lalime or Patrick Esche in the case of the latter - can make the Cup Finals or Final Four.

And, of course, every Brodeur got his start somewhere.

But you don't need dominant goaltending to succeed in the playoffs. It certainly helps, it helps a lot, it's a big determining factor. But as for *need*, you simply *need* good goaltending.

It's pretty easy to see - especially in the new NHL - a team like Tampa or Vancouver bringing the firepower to win a lot of games 5-4, 6-3. Their goaltending doesn't *need* to win games, it just needs to not lose them. A team with a dominant goaltender will have an advantage, but it's not the only advantage.

Who is Tampa going to get that's better than Grahame? There are some out there, true, but what's the cost gonna be to pry a Giguere? It's gonna be roster players. Good ones. Unless they can get a clear improvement on the cheap - which they probably can't - it's hard to deny that they're better off loading up on bruising d-men, a shutdown defensive centre, and maybe a sniper on the wing.

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02-14-2006, 03:29 PM
  #5
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^^^^^

Fantastic reply, couldn't have said it better myself.
I only want to add that I would actually prefer Grahame over Giguere, so I feel Tampa doesn't need to upgrade their goaltending.
And being a Canucks fan, I feel the same way - I'd rather put that money towards a good D-man.

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Old
02-14-2006, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonQuixote
But you don't need dominant goaltending to succeed in the playoffs. It certainly helps, it helps a lot, it's a big determining factor. But as for *need*, you simply *need* good goaltending.
I've been watching hockey since the mid-70's and in my lifetime I've seen very few teams win a cup without dominate goaltending. The Pens and Wings would be the closest, but even Barrasso and Osgood played very good. You need far better than "good" goaltending to win the cup. You may win a series or two, but that is about as far as you will go with "good" goaltending.

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02-14-2006, 03:38 PM
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Mike Vernon was a good goaltender not a great one... and he won 2 cups and a conn smythe... all it takes is for a goaltender to get hot and have confidence in the playoffs... and almost every goaltender in the NHL has that capability... but you do need to have a good team in front of them because a good team can make a good goaltender look great... not to mention the confidence it gives the guy between the pipes

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02-14-2006, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thalunatik1979
Mike Vernon was a good goaltender not a great one... and he won 2 cups and a conn smythe... all it takes is for a goaltender to get hot and have confidence in the playoffs... and almost every goaltender in the NHL has that capability... but you do need to have a good team in front of them because a good team can make a good goaltender look great... not to mention the confidence it gives the guy between the pipes
He played dominate in those Cups. Not saying other goalies can't, but does a team really want to roll the dice and hope a "good" goalie can elevate his play to dominate status like Vernon did?

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Old
02-14-2006, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe
I've been watching hockey since the mid-70's and in my lifetime I've seen very few teams win a cup without dominate goaltending. The Pens and Wings would be the closest, but even Barrasso and Osgood played very good. You need far better than "good" goaltending to win the cup. You may win a series or two, but that is about as far as you will go with "good" goaltending.
Barrasso was an elite goalie, in those days. His puck handling was probably on par with what Brodeur, Dipietro, and Truco can do now. But, generally, I agree with your point.

The Dead Wings won three cups over a 10 year period, but one wonders what they would have done if they had Grant Fuhr, Ken Dryden or Patrick Roy in net.

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02-14-2006, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe
I've been watching hockey since the mid-70's and in my lifetime I've seen very few teams win a cup without dominate goaltending. The Pens and Wings would be the closest, but even Barrasso and Osgood played very good. You need far better than "good" goaltending to win the cup. You may win a series or two, but that is about as far as you will go with "good" goaltending.
Sure. The team that wins the Cup will almost certainly have their offence, defence, and goaltending all firing at a minimum A level.

But while you can look at goaltenders like Roy or Brodeur or Hasek who fired at that level during their Cup runs, you can also see goaltenders like Barrasso, Ranford, Vernon and Osgood who weren't renown as 'dominant' goaltenders throughout their career, but merely played at an extremely high level during the playoffs.

If Tampa or Vancouver are going to win the Cup this year, Grahame and Auld are going to have to play phenomenally. But so will Miller, Turco, Esche or Nittimakki, Garon, Gerber, Legace...

And so will guys like Kipper and Brodeur. We're just *used* to them playing phenomenally. But who's to say Grahame can't do it, but Legace or Gerber (or Giguere or Biron) can? Who's to say Kipper could do it before he did it? Because he had really good numbers for half a regular season? Turco ***** the bed after posting a 1.98 and .913. Does Dallas need to upgrade their goaltending, or do they just need Turco to play as good as he possibly can? Just like every other team with Cup hopes. Grahame has pitched 7wins, 2 losses, 4 shut outs, in 9 starts since the new year. That's a level he *can* play at.

Will he? Who knows. But just about every team is going to need their goaltender to play over their head to win in the playoffs. Or should we just jump straight to a Calgary-New Jersey final?

And we can lower the goaltending bar slightly if we're talking about 'long playoff run',which I read as "Final Four", which is what we were discussing, but the points apply to both cases.

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Old
02-14-2006, 03:52 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe
I've been watching hockey since the mid-70's and in my lifetime I've seen very few teams win a cup without dominate goaltending. The Pens and Wings would be the closest, but even Barrasso and Osgood played very good. You need far better than "good" goaltending to win the cup. You may win a series or two, but that is about as far as you will go with "good" goaltending.
While I agree with you regarding the need for dominate goaltending, the important thing that you haven't mentioned is that in many cases dominant goaltending can come from unexpected sources.

Before the Flames acquired Kipper, I don't think that Sutter expected him to have a .940 SP in the play-off's. If you look at Khabibulin's career, you wouldn't expect that he would turn it up like he did. Same thing recently with guys like Giguere, Irbe, Kolzig, etc.

The important point that needs to be made (IMO) is that most of the available goaltenders have EITHER play-off experience, or are not playing well. Biron has played OK this year, but has no play-off experience. Theo has won a couple of play-off series (without looking incredible BTW), but has melted down this year.

Only guys I can think of who might be available that would likely be significant upgrades, and are playing well are Giguere and Roloson. I doubt that MINN or ANA would trade with the teams they are chasing (EDM & VAN), so I that EDM is either going to have to overpay for someone like Biron, or suffer through with what they have.

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02-14-2006, 03:54 PM
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Some people are really underestimating the impact of a great goalie.

Can you win with good goaltending? yes... but no, as a Canucks fan you dont want another d-man before a top-goalie, at least you should not.

edit:

You got 12 forwards and 6 D in each playoffs game, the playoffs been a really different world than refular season, somes players will reach new levels, some will remained similar players and somes will play under their true ability. For every category, you will perhaps gets another one ready to take the spot. The goalie got 1 guy behind him and usually, it's not a good replacement. You simply dont win without huge goaltending, even if your offense is the best of the crop.


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02-14-2006, 03:59 PM
  #13
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IMHO the new NHL will translate into the new NHL playoffs, more goals. I think it will be a question of who can score the most goals, not who has the stingiest defense. Defense will play a factor, but much more 2-way than trap/calgary clutch and grab. If you can't skate, you're through. Edmonton and Vancouver both have very mobile d-men, Ohlund, Allen, Salo, Baumer, Pronger, Tarnstrom, Bergeron, Spacek. That's far more important than a goalie who'll ride a stingy defense to a 1.9 GAA. Good goaltending is important, but I think this year, speed is going to be everything.

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Old
02-14-2006, 04:02 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anksun
Some people are really underestimating the impact of a great goalie.

Can you win with good goaltending? yes... but no, as a Canucks fan you dont want another d-man before a top-goalie, at least you should not.
I don't think we are. We realize it will take great goaltending to go deep in the P/O's. It is very likely that the 4 teams playing in the conference finals will all have gotten great goaltending. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Miller or Lundquist are playing in the ECF, and Auld or Aebischer is playing in the WCF.

I just don't see who is available that is a substantial upgrade for a Western conference team. Assuming that MINN, SJ & ANA all still feel like they have a chance to make the play-off's (and they should with several games in hand and LA struggling), I don't see them helping VAN or EDM by moving a Roloson, Giguere, or an unproven Toskala.

IMO, the only WC goalie that is an upgrade and might be available is CuJo, assuming that CLM has no interest in moving Denis. Once you get past Biron, the market seems pretty tapped out.

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02-14-2006, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attica
IMHO the new NHL will translate into the new NHL playoffs, more goals. I think it will be a question of who can score the most goals, not who has the stingiest defense. Defense will play a factor, but much more 2-way than trap/calgary clutch and grab. If you can't skate, you're through. Edmonton and Vancouver both have very mobile d-men, Ohlund, Allen, Salo, Baumer, Pronger, Tarnstrom, Bergeron, Spacek. That's far more important than a goalie who'll ride a stingy defense to a 1.9 GAA. Good goaltending is important, but I think this year, speed is going to be everything.
I disagree. The playoffs will be tight games like they always are. It doesn't matter if it is 2-1 or 6-5 goaltending always matters. You don't need to have Roy or Brodeur in the nets but whoever your goalie is he has to play really well for 25 or so straight games.

Plus as I have witnessed this year with the Sens, if you have a great goalie in nets the entire team can play with more confidence. If they absolutely trust the goalie teams can take better offensive chances instead of playing cautiously. That is one of the reasons the Sens didn't ever get to a final with Lalime. Even though Lalime would play really well in many games the team just didn't trust him.

What I am saying is that good goaltending helps you everywhere else, even offensively.

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02-14-2006, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
I don't think we are. We realize it will take great goaltending to go deep in the P/O's. It is very likely that the 4 teams playing in the conference finals will all have gotten great goaltending. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Miller or Lundquist are playing in the ECF, and Auld or Aebischer is playing in the WCF.

I just don't see who is available that is a substantial upgrade for a Western conference team. Assuming that MINN, SJ & ANA all still feel like they have a chance to make the play-off's (and they should with several games in hand and LA struggling), I don't see them helping VAN or EDM by moving a Roloson, Giguere, or an unproven Toskala.

IMO, the only WC goalie that is an upgrade and might be available is CuJo, assuming that CLM has no interest in moving Denis. Once you get past Biron, the market seems pretty tapped out.
Oh, i actually dont disagree more completely. I'm not sure there is an upgrade available. But the point remained, you should not look at upgrading defense over upgrading goaltending. Of course, if you cant do 1.. do the other.

At the very least, i feel a team like Vancouver needs another ''good goaltender'' if they want to go with Auld just in case...
_______________________________________

As for the most important thing been offense this year, that wont be true comes playoffs time. It doesnt matter if the game is 6-5 or 2-1, ultimately it's the ability of your goalie to make that game saver when the game is on the line that counts.

Takes the last 2 ''surprises Habs-Boston results in the playoffs''. Some fans will say Theodore wasnt that huge and it might be true but at the end, he did made the game savers. Bring a GOOD goalie in front of the habs net and those series are out in 6 games for the first and 5 games for the second one in favor of Boston.

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Old
02-14-2006, 04:40 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anksun

At the very least, i feel a team like Vancouver needs another ''good goaltender'' if they want to go with Auld just in case...
This is what most Canucks fans want.

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Old
02-14-2006, 04:45 PM
  #18
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I still don't see the game changing that much in the playoffs, where goaltending won't be key, like it *always* is.

Even past the saves and stats, strong goaltending leads to more confidence for the team, and that alone makes the team better... and I'm sure all canuck fans will agree that bad goaltending can deflate your team.

It's the goalies that make those key saves, at key times, that lead their team to the next round... I just don't see the playoffs now change where offense will carry a team to the next level.

As a canuck fan, I hope that Auld can turn it up in the playoffs... hell if Irbe and Weekes can, Auld has a chance... but I don't like the fact we don't have a competent goalie with him, for insurance if or when Auld proves he can't turn it up... I'd like to see the team add a goalie - doesn't need to be Luongo... hell even Lalime would be a good pickup at this stage... but someone who is more than a career backup - Roloson or Fernandez (Wild aren't going to move either to the canucks), Joseph, Biron... basically anyone cheaper than Gigeure, who doesn't cost much cap space.

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