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Game 73 | Washington Capitals @ Detroit Red Wings | 7:30 PM EST | FS-D (HD) | ‎

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Old
03-20-2012, 08:03 AM
  #326
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Originally Posted by Kyleftlx View Post
After going to the game tonight, I kind of think that people on this board (including myself) are somewhat overrating Smith at this moment in his development. The second goal that Washington scored is a good example of that... but overall it seems like he really isn't as good defensively as people think. I feel like he's developing well and that he is NHL ready, but I don't think he is better defensively than Quincey right now, and people seem to absolutely hate Quincey's play in the defensive zone.
Smith's defensive play is light-years ahead of where it was last season. And, no, I don't think his defensive play is worse than Quincey's; Smith is actually positioned correctly on most plays. Where as Quincey is either tripping over the blue line or off in la-la land with no clue where he should be. Quincey has a very low hockey IQ, Smith has a very good one. Most of Smith's mistakes have to do with mishandling the puck, which is a result of him still adjusting to the speed of the NHL game and his confidence with the puck on his stick. Both of which will be resolved in time.

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03-20-2012, 08:47 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Hakan2Holland View Post
Smith's defensive play is light-years ahead of where it was last season. And, no, I don't think his defensive play is worse than Quincey's; Smith is actually positioned correctly on most plays. Where as Quincey is either tripping over the blue line or off in la-la land with no clue where he should be. Quincey has a very low hockey IQ, Smith has a very good one. Most of Smith's mistakes have to do with mishandling the puck, which is a result of him still adjusting to the speed of the NHL game and his confidence with the puck on his stick. Both of which will be resolved in time.
100% correct. Plays that he's been getting away with for a year in GR are turnovers now in the NHL. He'll be a great player when he adjusts to that. I get the feeling that he'll always be a source of odd-man rushes in both directions however.

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03-20-2012, 10:06 AM
  #328
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Quincey's a bit like Ville Leino: when both guys were given a shot in the Detroit lineup it was during a time when we had a lot of injuries. Both guys have struggled with big roles so I think it's good we got that out of the way quickly so we know exactly what type of player they are. Q is not an offensive defenseman. I think playing with a bunch of really good forwards in Colorado made his offensive numbers look better.

In a handful of games it's obvious Brendan Smith has much greater offensive instincts than Q and it's not even close. Does Smith make some bad decisions? Of course, he's about a dozen NHL games into a very long NHL career. If you've read any of my posts you know I have no problem bring critical but ripping on Smith at this point makes no sense to me. Same deal with Nyquist. Filppula is the last high end forward we've developed and you have to go all the way back to Nik Kronwall to find a high end d-man developed through the DRW prospect pipeline.

There are literally dozens of guys who can give you what Kyle Quincey can give you: bottom pairing EVS ice time and PK duties. Nyquist and Smith are much more diffficult to acquire. The silver lining to the injury situation is they are getting very valuable ice time against the best competition on the planet. That cannot happen in the AHL. Both guys have shown they can play at this level and the more they play the quicker they'll develop. With so few high end forwards (Dats, Z, Fil) and uncertainty on defense (Lids, Stuart) I think you need to get these guys ready as soon as possible.

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03-20-2012, 10:07 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by mindfly View Post
As I've been correct for several games in a row I might as well say Wings will lose on Wednesday at Rangers at well, this team just can't win anymore.
Okay, you are correct, Mr. Know-it-all. I hail you, my master. So we are ending at 92 points and don't get the playoffs.

You must be a happy SOB.

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03-20-2012, 11:05 AM
  #330
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I dont know why some of you seem so high on Smith.

he is currently number 8 and I really wouldnt want to see him get a minute of playoff experience this season.

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03-20-2012, 11:21 AM
  #331
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Look at Q's even strength production.
It's nothing.

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03-20-2012, 12:09 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by jazz7266 View Post
So between Quincy and White who has been the worst defenseman of the team over the last since Quincy was traded. Quincy is a -1 in the plus/minus since joining the wings. While White is -5 since Febuary first. I know this doesn't say everything but something.

Now Quincy was injuried for a bit and also takes so silly penalties. Must have taken some lessons from Bertuzzi. Quincy was injuried and hasn't played on this team all year so he does need some time to adapted to his new surroundings.

Since Lidstrom has left though White has look terrible in my opinion and the worst of the two. I cringe when both of them are out together.
I think it's mostly unfair to compare the newest guys to any of the guys who were here all year, simply for adjustment reasons alone. THEN if you factor in when these guys are getting IT (during the worst injury spate in a while), does anyone truly want to use that as the best indicator of their potential on a mostly healthy roster?

I sure wouldn't.

What one can do fairly, imo, is observe that White is struggling in his top four role sans Lidstrom. We knew he wasn't super great defensively, but he was having a great offensive year. Now it may be safe to say that he's very complementary to Lids (and Dats). It should also be noted that there are defenders who may have gotten similar IT, but didn't do nearly as well as White offensively.



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Originally Posted by vladdy16 View Post
Why does it seem like most people here have an attention span and memory that can only last about 5 minutes? Take pride in your perspective yo.

The Red Wings have been really good, for a really long time, each year we get to wait and see if we have a cup run in us. This year is no different. Right now I'm concerned about the Lidstrom and Helm injuries, and I am concerned about how weak the middle of our lineup(Cleary,White,Quincy,etc) looks in light of those injuries. But we have some of the best players in the world, and we've seen it every year, the playoffs are truly a second season, and the only one that matters. Some spring air and a win or two in round one and we'll all be holding our breathe hoping we make it to 16.
The middle looks weak because it has had to play more of the roles reserved for the elite guys. I don't get why our posters are forgetting to calibrate their assessments against the reality of the roster right now.

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I thought Smith had his worst game so far tonight, but he also proved to be one of our most dynamic players. Looked like he was fatigued, and subsequently out of sync. None of his hiccups cost us, and he stayed with it on the plays he was off balance. I still think he is comfortably in our top 6 for the playoffs.
I tend to agree, which is why I've been posting the IT being given out, and more importantly, when it's cut back. Smith has been between 14-18 min/gm since he got his call-up. The majority of that IT has been in the first two periods. He was ramped up slowly from mostly ES to ES plus some PP. Barely a sniff at the PK, which is a smart coaching decision from the staff.

In other words, this kid is has a whopping total of 13 NHL games under his belt, is a +3 and 7 pts, with an avg of 15:32 min/gm.

Breaking down the ice time totals further, that means:

201:56 total minute played. By situation:
ES 177:14 -- 88% of TOI
PP 23:45 -- 11.9%
PK 0:57 -- neg (less than 1%)

Nick typically has 16% of his IT on the PP; White around 14%, and Kronner ~12%.

I'm very comfortable still with projecting him as a future QB PP, most likely on the first pairing eventually.

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Nyquist has always been on the other side of the spectrum for me, and tonight was another example of that. I'm just as excited about his potential as Smith, but I don't think Nyquist is NHL ready this year.
I'm borderline about his NHL-readiness at this moment, but he stands out more than say Emmerton. Mursak probably would look better if the team wasn't decimated by injuries. He needs someone to help him a bit (as do any of these younger guys right now).

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Old
03-20-2012, 12:18 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Yemack View Post
I dont know why some of you seem so high on Smith.

he is currently number 8 and I really wouldnt want to see him get a minute of playoff experience this season.
You honestly believe that Smith has impressed less than Ericsson and Kindl?

Ericsson has 63 NHL games played this year, and 10 pts, with around 16:46 of IT per game. Smith has 7 pts in 13 GP-- as an abject rookie on an injury-riddled team that's going through a death spiral. Both have almost all their points at ES, w/Smitty getting a helper on the PP (expectedly since he got more PP time than E). Nevertheless, the PP has been beyond abysmal during Smith's entire NHL career so far. He actually managed to get a point out of one when the team for the most part can't score on the PP at all.

Kindl has 11 pts in 50 NHL games, w/ 13:44 of IT/gm. He also has one helper on the PP (with :30 IT/gm on the PP).


Edit: As a rookie, Smitty's pace is 44 pts, with ~15-16 min/gm--- with the Wings in a major slump and injuries up the wazoo.

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Old
03-20-2012, 12:22 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by mindfly View Post
As I've been correct for several games in a row I might as well say Wings will lose on Wednesday at Rangers at well, this team just can't win anymore.
I have no idea why you say the most obvious things at times.


Is it truly insightful or really adding much to a discussion if you predict a team will struggle (and most likely lose) when half the roster is rookies and AHL call-ups, your #1 goalie and several remaining roster guys all injured?

I have no idea why you'd even make this post.

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Old
03-20-2012, 01:24 PM
  #335
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As I've been correct for several games in a row I might as well say Wings will lose on Wednesday at Rangers at well, this team just can't win anymore.
What do you want? A cookie?

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Old
03-20-2012, 01:27 PM
  #336
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What do you want? A cookie?
Nah bro, just some more realistic people here... every GDT and in similar threads there are multiple "LET'S GO WINGS HAVE A GOOD FEELIN TONIGHT" "WINGS WILL WIN!!!111"

We all know they won't, they might win at home to carolina, there's just no chance they win against the rangers. You just facepalm yourself reading all those "hilarious" comments...maybe people must write that to feel good about themselves temporarely. Or they're simply just naive.

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Old
03-20-2012, 02:09 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The middle looks weak because it has had to play more of the roles reserved for the elite guys. I don't get why our posters are forgetting to calibrate their assessments against the reality of the roster right now.
No, I mean, when completely healthy, I think the middle of our lineup is one of our biggest weaknesses to overcome if we want to win a cup. The injuries are highlighting this fact, not distorting it.

It's been a part of our makeup/gameplan for a while though. Sharks series last year is a perfect example. The middle of the lineup doesn't have any punch and is designed to play mistake free and neutral on the score sheet, while the weight of the game is put on the stars shoulders. Not a terrible strategy but also not ideal.

The defense will look much better when healthy, but that doesn't mean I'm not concerned. We are deep on D, but unless Smith plays, we aren't as dynamic as we could be. I think Quincey will look better on the bottom pairing, but I've been disappointed with what he is bringing to the table.

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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I'm borderline about his NHL-readiness at this moment, but he stands out more than say Emmerton. Mursak probably would look better if the team wasn't decimated by injuries. He needs someone to help him a bit (as do any of these younger guys right now).
Standing out more than Emmerton is not a good thing. Sure Nyquist has more flash, but he also makes more mistakes and gets lost in the play. It's an accomplishment on Emmertons part that he has managed to make it through his rookie season relatively unnoticed. And when he is making himself noticed he's taking pucks and quickly turning them into scoring chances. I never thought much of him, but as I see it now, he looks like he can be trusted to play 4th line minutes and not hurt us, and maybe surprise us with a few goals.

The Mursak injury might be the most underestimated event of the year. He's a legitimate offensive threat in my opinion, it would have been nice if he had an extra 50 games of experience going into the playoffs. Mursak-Emmerton-Abdelkader, doesn't sound nearly as bad of a 4th line as I would have thought.

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03-20-2012, 02:36 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
You honestly believe that Smith has impressed less than Ericsson and Kindl?

Ericsson has 63 NHL games played this year, and 10 pts, with around 16:46 of IT per game. Smith has 7 pts in 13 GP-- as an abject rookie on an injury-riddled team that's going through a death spiral. Both have almost all their points at ES, w/Smitty getting a helper on the PP (expectedly since he got more PP time than E). Nevertheless, the PP has been beyond abysmal during Smith's entire NHL career so far. He actually managed to get a point out of one when the team for the most part can't score on the PP at all.

Kindl has 11 pts in 50 NHL games, w/ 13:44 of IT/gm. He also has one helper on the PP (with :30 IT/gm on the PP).


Edit: As a rookie, Smitty's pace is 44 pts, with ~15-16 min/gm--- with the Wings in a major slump and injuries up the wazoo.
how much can Ericsson's worth really be measured by points though? he's more of a defensive(and PK) defenseman

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03-20-2012, 03:32 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
You honestly believe that Smith has impressed less than Ericsson and Kindl?

Ericsson has 63 NHL games played this year, and 10 pts, with around 16:46 of IT per game. Smith has 7 pts in 13 GP-- as an abject rookie on an injury-riddled team that's going through a death spiral. Both have almost all their points at ES, w/Smitty getting a helper on the PP (expectedly since he got more PP time than E). Nevertheless, the PP has been beyond abysmal during Smith's entire NHL career so far. He actually managed to get a point out of one when the team for the most part can't score on the PP at all.

Kindl has 11 pts in 50 NHL games, w/ 13:44 of IT/gm. He also has one helper on the PP (with :30 IT/gm on the PP).


Edit: As a rookie, Smitty's pace is 44 pts, with ~15-16 min/gm--- with the Wings in a major slump and injuries up the wazoo.
haha fugu, using your evidence, I could make you believe mike green is the best defenceman bar none in this league. can't I? Listen, I'm not talking about his offensive contribution. if we are talking about potential and what not, he may have more.

But he is a defenseman and he is nowhere near ready to play playoff IMO. yeah I have far more confidence in Kindl's defensive ability.

Do you really want Smith to fumble the puck into playoff? the magnitude of his defensive mistakes are so gigantic that if Ericsson or Kindl made any one of them, they would have been roasted alive.

I'm not talking about his future, I'm talking about this season. We can talk about future when the future actually comes.

As for ice time, I dont even know why you brought that up because surely you would know Smith wouldnt be getting more minute than Ericsson or Kindl if everyone was healthy.

let me ask you a question. Do you honestly believe Smith will be able to deal with playoff with his current mistake riddled defensive game? I trust Kindl and Ericsson more in that situation.

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Old
03-20-2012, 04:03 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
You honestly believe that Smith has impressed less than Ericsson and Kindl?

Ericsson has 63 NHL games played this year, and 10 pts, with around 16:46 of IT per game. Smith has 7 pts in 13 GP-- as an abject rookie on an injury-riddled team that's going through a death spiral. Both have almost all their points at ES, w/Smitty getting a helper on the PP (expectedly since he got more PP time than E). Nevertheless, the PP has been beyond abysmal during Smith's entire NHL career so far. He actually managed to get a point out of one when the team for the most part can't score on the PP at all.

Kindl has 11 pts in 50 NHL games, w/ 13:44 of IT/gm. He also has one helper on the PP (with :30 IT/gm on the PP).


Edit: As a rookie, Smitty's pace is 44 pts, with ~15-16 min/gm--- with the Wings in a major slump and injuries up the wazoo.
For the sake of the PK, Ericsson is in over Smith. NO QUESTION about it.
It's elementary.

The choice, if there is one, is Quincey vs Smith vs Kindl.

You gotta have
Lids/Stuart/Ericsson/Kronwall for the PK.

You probably want Lidstrom, White Kronwall for PP.

So you need Lids/Kronwall/Stuart/Ericsson/White

(truthfully, white's best asset is the right handed shot, or he'd deserve to be on the bubble, IMO)

So it's Quincey vs Smith vs Kindl.

Defensively, Kindl rarely looked as bad as Quincey and Smith have, although Kindl wasn't playing a role over his head. I'd probably rank them 1 Quincey 2. Kindl 3. Smith... but pretty close.
Offensively, Quincey is more polished but Smith has the best skills
1) Smith 2) Quincey 3) Kindl ... and truthfully, I don't think there's much difference here either.

The consensus seemed to be Q would get the 6th spot—at least to start, but with each passing game and with his brutal defense nearly every game, I wonder if will remain the case

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03-20-2012, 06:19 PM
  #341
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Yes, I suppose heading into the playoffs, you usually go with guys who have already been there. It's not Smitty's fault he had to do another year in GR because Kindl ran out of options and KH didn't want two rookies on the blueline battling for IT in the sixth spot.

I agree that puts Ericsson and Quincey ahead of these two guys if the playoffs were to start tomorrow.

I will add that everyone is sweet on E right now because absence has made the heart grow fonder. Said absence was during a time when he would have been asked to majorly step up and assume more roles than he had for the majority of the season when everyone was healthy. I think if he'd stayed and one of the other guys was down, most of you would be volunteering to drive him to the nearest airport, any time of day or night.

Just like White benefited from playing with Lidstrom, Ericsson on the PK had the benefit of being the 2nd D on either pair with either Lids or Stuart-- both with a ton more experience and savvy than him. The guys everyone is criticizing right now have not had that luxury.

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03-20-2012, 08:57 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Yes, I suppose heading into the playoffs, you usually go with guys who have already been there. It's not Smitty's fault he had to do another year in GR because Kindl ran out of options and KH didn't want two rookies on the blueline battling for IT in the sixth spot.

I agree that puts Ericsson and Quincey ahead of these two guys if the playoffs were to start tomorrow.

I will add that everyone is sweet on E right now because absence has made the heart grow fonder. Said absence was during a time when he would have been asked to majorly step up and assume more roles than he had for the majority of the season when everyone was healthy. I think if he'd stayed and one of the other guys was down, most of you would be volunteering to drive him to the nearest airport, any time of day or night.

Just like White benefited from playing with Lidstrom, Ericsson on the PK had the benefit of being the 2nd D on either pair with either Lids or Stuart-- both with a ton more experience and savvy than him. The guys everyone is criticizing right now have not had that luxury.
I have no problem with Ericsson as a third pairing defenseman. The problem I have is that he makes $3.25M a year.
I have no problem with Quincey as a third pairing defenseman. The problem I have is that he makes $3,1M a year, will probably get a raise, and we paid a first round pick to get an overpaid 3rd pairing defenseman who would probably make half as much if we never let him go for free to begin with.

I'd have had zero problem going in with Kind/Smith/Commodore/Janik going into the playoffs as our 6-7-8-9 defenseman and really think the Quincey trade was a waste of assets that perhaps only marginally improves our team.

In fact, I think it might have hurt our team, because as a result, we traded Commodore. And I'd rather have a 6-7-8-9 crew of Kindl/Smith/Commo/Janik than Quincey/Smith/Kindl/Janik

Commo might have been a great guy to throw in their during a rough and tumble playoff series.

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03-20-2012, 09:12 PM
  #343
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I don't agree with your position on Commie. This team is already too slow and truly prone to exploitation by teams that can come into our zone with some speed and good puck movement.


I'm also not as convinced as you are about Kindl. I honestly have no idea any longer what he'll develop into, but for his size, he has about as much sandpaper to him as a baby's bottom, he's not really great offensively, he's meh defensively, he's rather meh on special teams. I ain't got nothin'.

I can agree on the salaries for third pairing guys but in some bizarre way, maybe Holland save money by trading for Quincey. Who was going to be the Ian White of this year's crop? Is there a viable UFA target that truly fills the role Stuart held? Stuart wouldn't have re-signed for the same money had he stayed. I was warning people last year his price was going to go up. So, IF there is someone that KH can target as a bonafide Stuart replacement---- how much do you have to pay that guy?

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03-20-2012, 10:08 PM
  #344
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I'm not seeing what a few are saying about Smith's defense. The only lapses I've seen were pretty arbitrary cross ups that got swept away easily. I've never seen him with his head in the wrong place.

I have seen him cut down plays before we even had to transition to defense. In general he is much more aggressive/ahead of the play than the players ahead of him on the depth chart. Kindl is far too passive with his gaps, he consistently concedes the blue line when caution is unnecessary.

Smith is far better than Quincey offensively.

Ericcson is a mystery to me, but Smith has the edge on Quincey and Kindl as far as I'm concerned.

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03-20-2012, 10:20 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by vladdy16 View Post
I'm not seeing what a few are saying about Smith's defense. The only lapses I've seen were pretty arbitrary cross ups that got swept away easily. I've never seen him with his head in the wrong place.

I have seen him cut down plays before we even had to transition to defense. In general he is much more aggressive/ahead of the play than the players ahead of him on the depth chart. Kindl is far too passive with his gaps, he consistently concedes the blue line when caution is unnecessary.

Smith is far better than Quincey offensively.

Ericcson is a mystery to me, but Smith has the edge on Quincey and Kindl as far as I'm concerned.
That's pretty much how I see it too.

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03-20-2012, 10:25 PM
  #346
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I don't agree with your position on Commie. This team is already too slow and truly prone to exploitation by teams that can come into our zone with some speed and good puck movement.
I think it really depends on the team we play. If we get a team with a lot of big forwards and it becomes apparent they're pushing our guys around, winning the board battles and net-front battles, then Commo becomes a legit option. Now what's our option? Quincey to Smith? Smith hits. And I like that he lays lumber on guys. But he's still easy to push. Kindl? Like Smith, but no mean streak at all.


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I'm also not as convinced as you are about Kindl. I honestly have no idea any longer what he'll develop into, but for his size, he has about as much sandpaper to him as a baby's bottom, he's not really great offensively, he's meh defensively, he's rather meh on special teams. I ain't got nothin'.
Kindl skates well. He passes well. He gets shots on goal. He has decent size and plays a fairly safe, but pretty soft game on defense. He doesn't have "special" offensive abilities like Smith. But I don't see one thing that Quincey really has on him, except that Quincey loves to roam deep into the offensive zone, something that Wings defense rarely do unless losing.

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I can agree on the salaries for third pairing guys but in some bizarre way, maybe Holland save money by trading for Quincey. Who was going to be the Ian White of this year's crop? Is there a viable UFA target that truly fills the role Stuart held? Stuart wouldn't have re-signed for the same money had he stayed. I was warning people last year his price was going to go up. So, IF there is someone that KH can target as a bonafide Stuart replacement---- how much do you have to pay that guy?
There's always someone. Always.
For all the complaining about the Wisniewski contract, is it really that bad?

Here are some guys I'd consider signing, besides Suter, obviously.
  • Dennis Wideman
  • Barret Jackman
  • Matt Carle
  • Shane O'Brien
  • Scott Hannan
  • Johnny Oduya

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03-20-2012, 10:31 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
For all the complaining about the Wisniewski contract, is it really that bad?
Yes. He's not that good. If you're paying him that much, and he's your #1 or #2 guy, you're boned. References: Columbus.

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03-20-2012, 10:38 PM
  #348
19 for president
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Well the UFA dman crop after Suter is horrible next year. Kubina, Wideman, Jackman, Carle, and Allen are probably the only guys out there even worth a look. Jackman's the only real defense D like Stuart but he doesn't really have the offensive sense to play the Wings system. How is Carle's defensive game? With that said I doubt even half of those make it to the market considering how bad the market is shaping up already. If the Wings lose Stuart and Lids and don't sign Suter they are kinda screwed unless they make a big trade.

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03-20-2012, 10:41 PM
  #349
RedWingsNow*
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Yes. He's not that good. If you're paying him that much, and he's your #1 or #2 guy, you're boned. References: Columbus.
What if he's your 3-4 guy.
I think Wis is a better defenseman than White, for example, who is purely a depth defenseman who plays well in certain circumstances.
Personally, I was thinking we could maybe get Wis at $4.5M a year on a hometown discount. obviously not.

Is it worth it to pay your #3 defenseman $5.5M cap hit on a 7 year deal that takes his prime years until he's 35?

We're paying Kronwall $4.75M until he's 38.

We're paying Ericsson $3.25M and Quincey $3.1M

It's going to be interesting to see what happens with Jackman and Carle if they hit the market.

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03-21-2012, 12:18 AM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Is it worth it to pay your #3 defenseman $5.5M cap hit on a 7 year deal that takes his prime years until he's 35?
Maybe. If that guy isn't Wiz.

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