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Season failure: Was Wilson really to blame?

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03-21-2012, 09:10 AM
  #1
Grabowaffle84
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Season failure: Was Wilson really to blame?

Let me just start by saying that this is my first ever thread I started.

It's obvious that in Ron Wilson's tenure here that the Leafs weren't even remotely decent in the slightest but should he have been fired before Burke? I know that all of you are probably going to critisize me for sticking up for Wilson but I feel that a coach can only do as well as the players that he is provided with and Burke did not give Wilson all of the peices needed in order to be successful.

Sure we can say that Wilson has had 2 or 3 different rosters to work with in the past 4 years or so but was he provided with the right peices with any of these rosters? It is also obvious that since the coaching change the team has not played to a level where it should as they are under .500 with Carlyle. Was a coaching change really the answer given the teams current performance?

With that said I am wondering if Burke should finally put his ego aside and stand up and admit that he has screwed this franchise over. He has given us a ton of legitimate prospects and that I praise him for but it still doesn't make up for our current playoff drought in which we will likely be the only team post lock out to not make the playoffs. IMO it's pretty embarrassing. How long does Burke have left?

Thoughts?

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03-21-2012, 09:28 AM
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EazyB97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grabowaffle84 View Post
Let me just start by saying that this is my first ever thread I started.

It's obvious that in Ron Wilson's tenure here that the Leafs weren't even remotely decent in the slightest but should he have been fired before Burke? I know that all of you are probably going to critisize me for sticking up for Wilson but I feel that a coach can only do as well as the players that he is provided with and Burke did not give Wilson all of the peices needed in order to be successful.

Sure we can say that Wilson has had 2 or 3 different rosters to work with in the past 4 years or so but was he provided with the right peices with any of these rosters? It is also obvious that since the coaching change the team has not played to a level where it should as they are under .500 with Carlyle. Was a coaching change really the answer given the teams current performance?

With that said I am wondering if Burke should finally put his ego aside and stand up and admit that he has screwed this franchise over. He has given us a ton of legitimate prospects and that I praise him for but it still doesn't make up for our current playoff drought in which we will likely be the only team post lock out to not make the playoffs. IMO it's pretty embarrassing. How long does Burke have left?

Thoughts?
Burke has taken plenty of blame for the teams current position, I have no idea why people continue to claim otherwise.

We'll see how much Wilson was responsible for next year. This team was competetive for 60 or so games then completely fell apart. If the pieces were that awful, he wouldn't have been able to hold a playoff spot for 4-5 months. Carlyle walked in to a train wreck, a young team on a huge losing streak that had just lost their season, so I don't expect a fantastic record under him.

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03-21-2012, 09:30 AM
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I don't know what happened, but when this club went on the slide, there was no accountability besides guys like Schenn, Lupul, Reimer and Gusty the odd time with the media. When your coach starts pointing fingers, it's a bad sign that the communication has gone out the window and out of the room. They deflated and nobody was there to pump them back up. Burke tried to insinuate confidence at the trade deadline saying he could have received 1st rounders for so many players, but in the end decided to go with the group he had. Was it the truth? Who knows. But what we all know is that the team was mishandled at a key point in the season, and there was nothing done in order to get them back in the thick of things. This team is so brittle now there's just nothing to play for, not even pride. Carlyle stepped in at a very bad time, so the record with him in the tail end of the season is kind of moot to begin with. We'll have to wait and see next year how the club responds.

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03-21-2012, 09:32 AM
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Wilson's high octane offense was the only thing keeping this team alive. For the first half of the season it was a thing of beauty to watch. I enjoyed nearly every single game, win or lose.

I think the above poster is right that reading between the lines something has happened in the dressing room.

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03-21-2012, 09:33 AM
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I was Pro-Wilson, just because this team is so young and the majority of them have only known his system as pro hockey players. A big change could really throw off some of these youngins. Now a change is necessesary and should happen at some point, just during the offseason was probably a better idea.

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03-21-2012, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
Burke has taken plenty of blame for the teams current position, I have no idea why people continue to claim otherwise.

We'll see how much Wilson was responsible for next year. This team was competetive for 60 or so games then completely fell apart. If the pieces were that awful, he wouldn't have been able to hold a playoff spot for 4-5 months. Carlyle walked in to a train wreck, a young team on a huge losing streak that had just lost their season, so I don't expect a fantastic record under him.
This. Wilson had us in a playoff position throughout much of the year, despite obvious problems.

If Carlyle does not do at least as much next season it will be quite obvious that Wilson was NOT the problem.

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03-21-2012, 09:37 AM
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Wilson was not the biggest problem in what happened but he was a big problem in what was happening in that this team wasn't getting anywhere! Wilson was never going to get it done and his system was only going to work so long until teams figured it out and exposed it!

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03-21-2012, 09:47 AM
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Grabowaffle84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mansfield View Post
This. Wilson had us in a playoff position throughout much of the year, despite obvious problems.

If Carlyle does not do at least as much next season it will be quite obvious that Wilson was NOT the problem.
This can be true but if we are looking at a few additions next season then is this point moot that Carlyle did a better job than Wilson if we make the playoffs with a few additions? Is it fair to say that Carlyle did a better job than Wilson if he has a few extra peices to work with?

If however it is the same team with no additions and we make the playoffs next year then yes it would absolutely be fair to say that Carlyle did a better job than Wilson.

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03-21-2012, 09:51 AM
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Wilson was partially to blame
The goalies were partially to blame
The D was partially to blame
Phaneuf was partially to blame for completely dissapearing once the team started losing, no leadership at all from my pov.
Kessel proved once again that he can't be relied on as the go to guy, when the team struggles he vanishes, plays soft.
Burke was partially to blame for his fetish of big rugged D-Man that have hurt the team more than help it (Phaneuf, Komi, Schenn)

It's one major mess, Burke needs to go and I would trade Phaneuf and Kessel and buy out some crap. this team will not win with them.

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03-21-2012, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grabowaffle84 View Post
This can be true but if we are looking at a few additions next season then is this point moot that Carlyle did a better job than Wilson if we make the playoffs with a few additions? Is it fair to say that Carlyle did a better job than Wilson if he has a few extra peices to work with?

If however it is the same team with no additions and we make the playoffs next year then yes it would absolutely be fair to say that Carlyle did a better job than Wilson.
Well, obviously the team won't be exactly the same. That's why it's tough to judge...

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03-21-2012, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grabowaffle84 View Post
This can be true but if we are looking at a few additions next season then is this point moot that Carlyle did a better job than Wilson if we make the playoffs with a few additions? Is it fair to say that Carlyle did a better job than Wilson if he has a few extra peices to work with?

If however it is the same team with no additions and we make the playoffs next year then yes it would absolutely be fair to say that Carlyle did a better job than Wilson.
You judge based on the results given the expectations. We weren't supposed to be this bad, aside from our top line and Gardiner, basically every other player has under performed for the season. Most of that was the case even when the team was winning.

If the team does better than expected or even equals expectations, then it looks like Carlyle will have done a better job than Wilson. The only season Wilson ever overachieved was in his first year with the club.

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03-21-2012, 10:19 AM
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Yes, although they are still not winning, the system is much better suited and the game they are now playing is already an improvement. Give Carlyle a bit to truly implement his system and correct defensive blunders and you will see the impact he has on the overall on ice product.

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03-21-2012, 10:22 AM
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Wilson's system was horrible. In the long-run you can't play run-and-gun against more skilled teams like Philly and Pitts. You'll get eaten alive.

All we need to do is solidify our goaltending, work on systems in the offseason and tighten up D coverage. Get rid of the softness and get some size in your forward group to grind it out and focus on the cycle game.

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03-21-2012, 10:26 AM
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Wilson's lack of reactive coaching certainly was a strong factor. We got exposed early and often but were able to outscore the problems via the run-and-gun system. It almost seemed like the team was getting burnt out (especially the young guys) from playing it, and Wilson didn't do anything to try and adjust, nor could he coach the team to battle back from a deficit.

I think some blame is certainly on the players, especially those not living up to expectations or who haven't been giving it a good effort, but Wilson's seemingly passive coaching style and unwillingness to change certainly didn't help matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeroknowledge View Post
Kessel proved once again that he can't be relied on as the go to guy, when the team struggles he vanishes, plays soft.
When the team was struggling he was one of the few who was still performing and filling his role. He's going to play 'soft' win or lose. He only seems to truly vanish against Boston, though the entire team did that this year, all six times.

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03-21-2012, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
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Kessel proved once again that he can't be relied on as the go to guy, when the team struggles he vanishes, plays soft.
Really?

Started struggling 21 games ago

in the last 21 games

Kessel 7G 12A 19points

Just under a point per game, while the rest of the team actually has disappeared. If anything Kessel is the only one that has remained consistent through the struggle.

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03-21-2012, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Zeroknowledge View Post
Kessel proved once again that he can't be relied on as the go to guy, when the team struggles he vanishes, plays soft.
the only thing you've proven is your ignorance. kessel has been the most consistent leaf the entire season.

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03-21-2012, 11:09 AM
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regardless of who the coach is:

We don't have a #1 center, #1 d-man or #1 goalie, Jesus Christ can't get this team into the playoffs.

The personnel problems are Burke's fault, it's time he owns up to his sub-par performance.

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03-21-2012, 11:12 AM
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I think the Leafs were playing well, doing really good, and then 2 months ago they finally looked down at their chests and realized that they play for the Leafs, and that they need to start sucking more.

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03-21-2012, 11:35 AM
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SeenSchenn2
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He was part of the problem. There's no arguing that.

YOU NEED a defensive system to be successful consistently in this league.

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03-21-2012, 11:36 AM
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He was part of the problem. There's no arguing that.

YOU NEED a defensive system to be successful consistently in this league.
Or a goalie who can steal you countless wins..

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03-21-2012, 11:39 AM
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Like Boudreau in DC, Wilson had to go. The mistake in both cases is that the GMs should have fired them after last season, allowing for a training camp with the new coaches.

Both McPhee and Burke need to go.

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03-21-2012, 11:44 AM
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Or a goalie who can steal you countless wins..
This, as well. DD's always got my back

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03-21-2012, 11:51 AM
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We have seen once already that Burke has let friendship get in the way of what would be best for the team. Does anyone here think that the same will happen with Carlyle if he follows the same path that Wilson did and leads the team nowhere? Or do you think Burke will be gone before he can once again vouch for an old friend?

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03-21-2012, 12:12 PM
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Burke had to do something with the leaf collapse.
His options were
1. Fire coach (or assistant/management type)
2. Call up a player to spur the team
3. Waive a few players that don't contribute
4. Trade before the deadline during the collapse

He didn't trade so was left with 1 to 3. And then he finally chose Wilson as the scapegoat (probably at that point he had to go because of the fans) and as we know that didn't work out.

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03-21-2012, 12:43 PM
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A lot of our guys only know how to play that run and gun game, hard for everyone when you have a big coaching change as drastic as this.

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