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Old
03-21-2012, 09:26 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Bizz06 View Post
I remember back in the Fire Ron Wilson days, a lot of people wanted Mike Haviland.
A lot of people basically equals Chomp and anyone that was convinced that bold lettering means it has to be something important and correct. I'm actually more interested in knowing whether the GM will still be here if they fail to make it. Past history suggests he won't and who his replacement is will determine where the team goes and who coaches it.

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03-21-2012, 09:45 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
A lot of people basically equals Chomp and anyone that was convinced that bold lettering means it has to be something important and correct. I'm actually more interested in knowing whether the GM will still be here if they fail to make it. Past history suggests he won't and who his replacement is will determine where the team goes and who coaches it.
I dont know if Wilson will be there as well if dont make the playoffs. But either way I do think TMac is gone. Hopefully we can get a defensive minded coach.

As much as I dislike the style that the Blues play atleast the players bought into Hitchcocks system and play it accordingly.

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03-21-2012, 10:14 AM
  #103
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Whatever happens, I wanna see Ricci as an AC next year.

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03-21-2012, 10:18 AM
  #104
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Whatever happens, I wanna see Ricci as an AC next year.
I'd welcome him with open arms. Has there been any hint that he wants to start coaching games?

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03-21-2012, 10:27 AM
  #105
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Anyone think that maybe the problem isn't coaching or players but the GM or the culture of the organization?
There has been lots of different players on the team since the lockout and we have had two coaches with equally disappointing results.
What if the culture of the organization or GM was the cause of the teams general complacency in critical times?

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03-21-2012, 10:45 AM
  #106
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Anyone think that maybe the problem isn't coaching or players but the GM or the culture of the organization?
There has been lots of different players on the team since the lockout and we have had two coaches with equally disappointing results.
What if the culture of the organization or GM was the cause of the teams general complacency in critical times?
I agree with the G.M. issue. Very odd recent swing of deals and, seems to be getting the low end of the pole on all deals of late. Drowned out the youth system of most decent prospects and, actually tried moving out strengths to bring in hopeful strengths and, nothing has worked. The most recent being the McGinn deal which is a disaster and has pretty much already blown up in his face. Replacing Wellwood with Handzus was awful and, replacing Handzus with Moore was just as bad (Malone was there for the taking and, again he brought home the wrong player). We can just go on here. We go to the final 4 two years straight and, pretty much change almost half the team up front from last season.........o.k.
I can't see the likes of a Holland doing such a thing.

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03-21-2012, 10:51 AM
  #107
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The soul searching needs to be started at the top.

I'll freely admit I'm now looking at this in 20/20 hindsight and odds are many of us liked the moves when they were done, and this team *is* talented. I don't think there's an identity to the franchise anymore.

2008-2010: The system, team, coaching staff, everything is geared toward emulating the Detroit Red Wings. In 2009, the Sharks are eliminated by the Ducks in 6. Just awful. However, those Ducks pushed the Wings to 7 games the very next round. They largely stay the course, bringing in Heatley and moving Ehrhoff and Michalek out, beat the Red Wings and are then run over by a team with cheap young talent and cheap goaltending. Philly also reaches the finals on cheap goaltending.

At this point, things get concerning. Wilson's moves this offseason seem to be targeted at A) emulating Chicago and B) helping to destroy Chicago's depth. He doesn't actually shore up the Sharks' depth until the January trades which created the 3rd scoring line and replaces Rob Blake. Niemi hits a hot streak. The team beats Detroit again and then is defeated by a team that was able to withstand injuries, especially on the blue line better than the Sharks. Ironically, the two teams in the SCF spend about 11 million on their starting goaltending a year after the league as a whole had relegated goaltending to "anyone can do it."

This offseason, he copies Vancouver's defensive depth, and the Sharks have 8 NHL defensemen on the roster to start the season. This comes at the cost of the offensive scoring depth and the Sharks go periods of time with 3-4 healthy top 6 forwards. Wingles, Winchester, Ferriero, Desjardins all find time on a top 2 line. Despite the glut of d-men, the group is not defensively sound enough to cover for average goaltending, which is what the Sharks now pay for.

Looking back in this light, I wonder if St. Louis wins the west if Wilson would fire McLellen and try to lure Lemaire back to the NHL. Rather than doubling down and working through the Detroit theory as he did the first two seasons, Wilson is now reacting to whoever is the previous year's big boy in the Western Conference. We have a mass of talent, brought in in different years for different reasons and it's failing to mesh when it needs to the most.

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Old
03-21-2012, 10:57 AM
  #108
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As much as Ive knocked on a former Sharks blogger who happens to be a member here, he happened to write one article that was 100% spot on, and its pretty funny that over a year later, absolutely nothing has changed with Todd McLellan and the Sharks since then. Amazing how the set pieces always tend to repeat themselves.

from: http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=32782

Quote:
It doesn't matter what team or town you're discussing, you'll always find at least a handful of grumpy fans out there who want to fire the coach. It's a pretty small group in Anaheim, a sizable majority in San Jose, and the entire fan base in Toronto. So, with the San Jose Sharks riding a four-game losing streak and enduring their worst season since the NHL lockout, it’s ironic that the team’s last coaching casualty (Ron Wilson) arrives in town tonight to face its next coaching casualty (Todd McLellan). It’s also amazing to see how much McLellan has come to resemble his predecessor this season.

It seems no matter the problem, the immediate solution is to fire the coach. The power play can't score a cold at the free health clinic? Fire the coach. We haven't won a Cup since “Good Times” was on the air? Fire the coach. Niclas Wallin's on the blueline? Fire the coach. It seems the more losses a team endures, the more amateur psychologists they have filling the rink and clogging message boards demanding that the coach hit the bricks. However, that doesn’t mean they’re wrong. Wilson could see the writing on the wall long before the ax fell, and McLellan has to see the same thing nearly three years later.

If teams fail to meet expectations the coach takes the blame right along with the players. That’s one of many areas where McLellan has fallen short this season, mirroring the defiant stance Wilson took during his final days behind the Sharks bench. Remember how McLellan would take blame during his first season in San Jose? Remember how refreshing it was to hear a coach admit that he’d made mistakes? Turns out that was a crock of crap, because McLellan hasn’t taken any personal responsibility for his team’s misfortune this season. It’s awfully easy to shoulder some blame when you’re riding high on the hog, but a person’s true character reveals itself when times are tough.

The way I see it, a coach has three primary responsibilities: to instruct, prepare and motivate. By the end of his time in San Jose, either because the players had tuned him out or he’d simply overstayed his welcome, Wilson had lost his ability to effectively do all three of those things. We’re seeing the same thing from McLellan this season, with the same disappointing results as the Sharks stumble past the midway point of the season.

Instruct - Baseball players rarely admit they have anything to learn, they're just working their way in and out of slumps. Football players rarely admit fault, they're just looking forward to a better effort next week. I’ve always enjoyed talking to hockey players more than any other athletes, because even superstars will freely admit they're always learning the game, trying to find ways to improve. It’s that humility and respect for the game that separate the great from the good, the legendary from the merely laudable. NHL coaches are constantly teaching new tactics and techniques, whether it's positioning, faceoffs, shooting, awareness, etc.

It's amazing how much instruction takes place between players and coaches. Players don't progress and improve by hitting the ice and smacking a few pucks around. If a player makes a 40-point improvement from one season to the next it's usually the result of a coach's training and instruction. This is one of the hardest areas for fans to judge a coach's impact on the team. However, McLellan’s ineffectiveness has been plain to see this season. Not only have several Sharks players failed to progress, but they’ve fallen into bad habits that are reflected on the scoreboard and the stat sheet.

Nobody had an answer on Thursday night when the Sharks put 36 shots on Ryan Miller without a goal. Resembling yours truly sitting in front of his last political science exam, Dan Boyle could only shake his head and repeat “I don’t know” when asked why the Sharks couldn’t put one of 37 shots past Jonas Hiller on Sunday night. And McLellan, the one man who should have the answers, doesn’t have a clue what he can do to help the Sharks out of their scoring slump. Like Wilson before him, a failure to instruct is contributing to McLellan’s demise.

Prepare - Coaching extends much further than filling out the lineup, throwing a suit on and tying a Windsor knot. Great coaches prepare their teams to win by addressing needs and making sure the team is ready to compete. Not expecting the team to be ready, not hoping they’ll decide to show up, but doing whatever is in a coach’s power to ensure that his team will show up ready to compete. It goes right down to the set plays and alignments, making sure he gets the best results from the players on the ice. A coach also has to make sure he's putting the best matchups on the ice, shifting lines and adjusting to the opposition.

We can all remember situations when a coach had the wrong players on the ice in a crucial situation or made some other mistake that led to a loss. Viktor Tikhnov pulling Tretiak after the first period? Bad idea. Don Cherry's too many men call with two minutes remaining in Game 7? Bad move. Exceptionally bad decisions can only increase a coach's likelihood of getting the ax. Take McLellan’s response to the Ducks on Sunday. After seeing 27 shots were turned away after 40 minutes, did the coach change things up and make adjustments to counter Anaheim’s defense? Nope. The message was simple and ineffective: Keep shooting and hope for the best.

That lack of preparation helps explain the Sharks’ poor starts this season. San Jose has given up the first goal in eight of their last nine games, something McLellan has refused to take accountability for, and those slow starts have crippled the team’s confidence lately. Sure there’s enough blame to spread evenly on some whole-wheat bread and feed to the multitudes, but the coach has to be the one front and center, taking the heat in good times and bad. Passing the buck and blaming players for the ills of the entire teams seems like something lifted right out of Wilson’s playbook, yet those self-preservation tactics have become common from McLellan this season.

Motivate - Every coach is trying to get the most out of his players, motivating them through a variety of methods. Actually, we need to amend that last statement, because apparently every coach but McLellan feels that’s part of his job description. Perhaps that helps to explain the lack of accountability or discipline on McLellan’s part. I know you’re thinking that motivation should come easy for most NHL players. If huge paychecks, personal pride, and a legion of loyal fans won't do it, what are the chances a couple terse words and a kick in the pants will? Every player needs to be held accountable, even if it comes from an ill-tempered coach who has the ability to staple him to the bench.

Of course, Wilson found out the hard way what happens when you fail to instruct, prepare or motivate. Now he’s coaching a team in Toronto with half the talent and double the pressure to succeed – and by succeed I mean dig itself out of the NHL draft lottery. Wilson stubbornly stated his inculpability before, during and after he was terminated as head coach of the Sharks. It’s ironic that the man returning to San Jose tonight would be welcomed back with open arms by many Shark fans who feel he’d be a significant upgrade over the team’s current bench boss. There’s still time for McLellan to start instructing, preparing and motivating his forlorn team, but he’d be wise to polish up his resume.


Last edited by Bizz06: 03-21-2012 at 12:39 PM. Reason: just copypasted the bulk of the article
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Old
03-21-2012, 12:33 PM
  #109
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So has the Todd lost the Room? Oh wait he did!

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03-21-2012, 12:39 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bizz06 View Post
As much as Ive knocked on a former Sharks blogger who happens to be a member here, he happened to write one article that was 100% spot on, and its pretty funny that over a year later, absolutely nothing has changed with Todd McLellan and the Sharks since then.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=32782
A little scrutiny goes a long way.

TMac has taught Thornton to become a complete, two-way player. Not at all easy. He's been instrumental in the development of Pavelski and Couture as well...he is definitely "instructing".

The article criticizes the coach for not shuffling the lines or changing the strategy in-game. Yet the coach has been doing that all the time. He is constantly shuffling the lines and adjusting the matchups. He has also taken accountability for the team. He also can recognize that if the team has run into a hot goaltender, but is dominating play, your best bet is too keep dominating play until you score. See Nashville/Rinne a couple of nights ago.

How does the author know that TMac is not motivating the players? He is definitely holding them accountable; benching players, scratching players.

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03-21-2012, 12:41 PM
  #111
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I think the Sharks need better assistant coaches more than a new HC.

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03-21-2012, 12:42 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
A little scrutiny goes a long way.

TMac has taught Thornton to become a complete, two-way player. Not at all easy. He's been instrumental in the development of Pavelski and Couture as well...he is definitely "instructing".

The article criticizes the coach for not shuffling the lines or changing the strategy in-game. Yet the coach has been doing that all the time. He is constantly shuffling the lines and adjusting the matchups. He has also taken accountability for the team. He also can recognize that if the team has run into a hot goaltender, but is dominating play, your best bet is too keep dominating play until you score. See Nashville/Rinne a couple of nights ago.

How does the author know that TMac is not motivating the players? He is definitely holding them accountable; benching players, scratching players.
shuffling lines =/= changing strategy

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03-21-2012, 12:46 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
A little scrutiny goes a long way.

TMac has taught Thornton to become a complete, two-way player. Not at all easy. He's been instrumental in the development of Pavelski and Couture as well...he is definitely "instructing".


The article criticizes the coach for not shuffling the lines or changing the strategy in-game. Yet the coach has been doing that all the time. He is constantly shuffling the lines and adjusting the matchups. He has also taken accountability for the team. He also can recognize that if the team has run into a hot goaltender, but is dominating play, your best bet is too keep dominating play until you score. See Nashville/Rinne a couple of nights ago.

How does the author know that TMac is not motivating the players? He is definitely holding them accountable; benching players, scratching players.
he didn't teach him anything, thornton always had the 2 way forward in him, just most the teams he played for he was needed more to be dominating offensively then defensively. mclellan and babcock (more so babcock) explained to thornton to win in the league he needs to becoming more of a 2way player then a 1 way player.

thornton came into the league, and was coached by a coach who preached 2way play. its why thornton took the long way to becoming a dominate threat that he has been the past 7 years. he came in slow playing 4 minutes a night on the 4th line, learning the defensive side of the game, then his 2nd year in the league, moved up to the 3rd line, playing 15 minutes a night, then his 3rd year got the 1st line center job in boston and ran with it for the next 4 years before being traded to san jose.

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03-21-2012, 12:53 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bizz06 View Post
As much as Ive knocked on a former Sharks blogger who happens to be a member here, he happened to write one article that was 100% spot on, and its pretty funny that over a year later, absolutely nothing has changed with Todd McLellan and the Sharks since then. Amazing how the set pieces always tend to repeat themselves.

from: http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=32782
"Keep shooting and hope for the best" could not be more accurate. It sure looks like thats the only thing they do, especially the "hope for the best" part. No game plan at all, just rely on players' talents and see how things work out.

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03-21-2012, 12:58 PM
  #115
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I'm al on board with firing him after the season.

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03-21-2012, 01:49 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naki View Post
Anyone think that maybe the problem isn't coaching or players but the GM or the culture of the organization?
There has been lots of different players on the team since the lockout and we have had two coaches with equally disappointing results.
What if the culture of the organization or GM was the cause of the teams general complacency in critical times?
I think you make a good point but look at the Miami Dolphins as a prime example (i know, a whole different sport) of bad front office. Their players play well but the FO is so bad that no one will play for them. I feel like its the coaching thats holding up the team, well that and a little bit of the GMs willingness to trade away prospects and picks...

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03-21-2012, 02:13 PM
  #117
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I think you make a good point but look at the Miami Dolphins as a prime example (i know, a whole different sport) of bad front office. Their players play well but the FO is so bad that no one will play for them. I feel like its the coaching thats holding up the team, well that and a little bit of the GMs willingness to trade away prospects and picks...
To be fair the dolphins suck, and the Sharks haven't sucked until recently. However, there is something to be said about the feel of the organization. Doug really seems to be intent on creating an atmosphere of success and history, the only problem is, he skipped the part where the team earns that reputation by working hard and winning. I don't entirely hate what he's doing, but I think it's odd that he's molding the team after the red wings when Ken Holland and the red wings organization has earned their reputation. The whole Sharks organization has yet to break through and establish themselves as a championship organization. When that happens they can carry themselves with a little more pride, but until then, it's time to swallow it and make the tough decisions.

In regards to the article about McLellan. His entire system is shoot the puck. If there are any nuances to it, I'd be shocked. The most infuriating part about his system is there is absolutely no ****ing room for creativity. Any creativity that might have existed has been demolished along with the team's spirit. However, there is one exception, and that is Martin Havlat. He doesn't pin the puck to the boards, he skates and uses his creativity to create scoring chances. No other sharks forward even attempts what Havlat does, they all shoot the puck from great distance, or pin it to the boards, or dump it behind the net and try to force passes through 8 legs. It's a robotic, ineffective style of play with limited quality scoring chances. The funniest part is, the Sharks are not creative, nor do they work hard and play a gritty game. So of course they're gonna suck. There is no identity to the team, because the coach has in essence, made that their identity.

What's the cliche? Will beats skill every time? What do you do when the team is coached into using neither? Oh right, you suck ass. His time has come and he's clearly not the right man for the job.

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03-21-2012, 02:26 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slocal View Post
I'd welcome him with open arms. Has there been any hint that he wants to start coaching games?
He's been behind the bench during a few Worcester games as an assistant.

I also recall 210 saying that when Ricci or Marchment is behind the bench during games, players sit up a little straighter.

I don't know if it's something that he wants to start on a more regular basis, but I think he'd make a damn fine assistant. He'd bring a solid mix of hockey IQ and motivational ability. I can't see players tuning him out, especially Marleau, who played with him and has seen him bust his ass like no other.

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03-21-2012, 02:35 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by bigwillie View Post
He's been behind the bench during a few Worcester games as an assistant.

I also recall 210 saying that when Ricci or Marchment is behind the bench during games, players sit up a little straighter.

I don't know if it's something that he wants to start on a more regular basis, but I think he'd make a damn fine assistant. He'd bring a solid mix of hockey IQ and motivational ability. I can't see players tuning him out, especially Marleau, who played with him and has seen him bust his ass like no other.
Marchment and Ricci are the kind of guys that know what it takes to compete. The players would respond to that. I believe Ricci would make a very good coach.

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03-21-2012, 02:37 PM
  #120
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Players don't always make the best coaches.

Would JR make a great coach? Ricci was a superb defensive player but what about his understanding of offensive zone tactics?

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03-21-2012, 02:44 PM
  #121
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True, players don't make the best coaches but Ricci has been on the bench with Somner. The whole coaching staff has been underwhelming just like the team this year.

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03-21-2012, 03:00 PM
  #122
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TMc's insistence on starting Niemi every freaking night is worthy of getting his ass canned.

GRRRRR!!!!

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03-21-2012, 04:32 PM
  #123
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Some thoughts on delineating responsibilities and possibly not throwing the baby out with the bath water (a cost/benefit look):

1. I guarantee that TM and the ACs are making adjustments. The forecheck has varied between 1-2-2 and 2-1-2 this season. He has modified dzone breakouts during the season, but tends to stick with one method until it fails miserably. Very minimal cross-ice on breakout and through the neutral zone. Varies how close the support is between near the wall and up to middle of the ice. Very creative zone entry plays but still preaches chip and chase to an excessive degree. He has had some but minimal changes to in-zone offense, working the corners or the back of the net. Almost no half-boards. Went to optional practices in the face of the schedule (may have been a mistake).

2. Coaches should motivate but they aren't the only ones. The players themselves and the GM. De-motivation is a big issue and what gets a lot of coaches in trouble. Firebrands almost universally become de-motivators although you might get a brief bump. Teammates can be de-motivators as well. Vets who rely on privilege of seniority rather than performance for their spot are a de-motivating factor.

3. On the goalie thing. The Sharks have relied on the goalie coach in the past to make the call. I wouldn't lay it all at TM's feet; look to the org and the interplay.

4. On JT changing his game. The article was there a while ago. JT went to TM after the Chicago debacle and asked what he needed to do. We have seen a much more defensive minded JT since then. Articles have noted this year that TM has been going to JT and telling him to move his feet. Dealing with star players is an art form for coaches. It isn't the old days where the coaches had the power. Coaches live and die with the superstar's approval. To get JT to listen to him, implies a level of respect from JT for TM which is part and parcel of being an effective coach in this regard.

5. A coach/teacher has to decide the best way to get a message across to the class. Is part of keeping Nemo in goal, a message from the players to TM that they expect the comfort level of playing with the familiar guy? Is there that big a difference with Greiss or is it just a false perception? Is it a battle that TM wants to fight? Is part of getting his message across a part of intransigence? An insistence to reinforce certain universally desirable practices in play? Granted that it is a veteran team, but player resistance is a good reason for sticking with a single message, be it goalie selection or chipping the puck when there is any chance of turnover or limiting creativity to below the goal line.

6. We all know about DW's emulation. We have gone over issues of drafting and trading ad nauseum. Naki brought up culture. Has anyone talked about DW and the culture. The Sharks have gone from a very limited movement team to a high turnover team in the last 6 years or so. Many teams have. The bar has shifted. Detroit is one of the few remaining teams that sticks with low turnover and there was an interesting quote from Devellano (assistant to Holland) on the issue after the Anaheim debacle. Turnover is a part of that culture. Is the lack of third line scoring a part of team culture/strategy or a lack of depth on the team? Is there a push from certain core players to acquire certain other players or player types? Is this playing into decisions? Is there a structured vision of play coming from the top? How much of that vision is coming from the players and if it is, is it what they like or is it what works? Is lack of accountability by players a reflection of lack of accountability by the suits beyond TM (meaning Wayne Thomas, Roy Sommer, DW, JFJ, etc.)?

Lots of questions where the answers are not cut and dry. Lots of it is debatable.

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03-21-2012, 04:36 PM
  #124
Internazionale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paka Ono View Post
TMc's insistence on starting Niemi every freaking night is worthy of getting his ass canned.

GRRRRR!!!!
THIS! Im so sick and tired of watching Tmac's reaction after a goal has been scored on Niemi, yet he continues to watch the season get flushed down the toilet by starting Niemi every single game. I hope Nitty is at least having a chuckle with how the season has turned out and how unfair he has been treated. SERIOUSLY TODD WE ARE NOT MAKING THE PLAYOFFS WITH YOUR CONTINUED TRUST IN NIEMI!

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03-21-2012, 04:42 PM
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does anyone else notice that goalies always take drinks of water after they get scored on?

just find it funny.

carry on.

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