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Montréal best teams at drafting from 2000-2009?

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Old
03-20-2012, 10:29 AM
  #26
BLONG7
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
It's not only to hold on to all of them but the right ones and to develop them properly.
developing players seem to be our troubles...

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03-20-2012, 10:39 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by HabsSlappy View Post
This is just a further indictment to how putrid our management has been over the last 5 years.

Gainey started off really well, building up our prospect base and making the Kovalev trade to finally have a game breaker.

It looks like everything went downhill once Gauthier was given the position of Assistant GM and Direct of Pro Scouting.

The trades we have made in giving up good young players for nothing has hindered this team to the point that we are back where we started when Gainey got hired. Ribeiro, Lats, Laps, SK given up for nothing and the grand daddy of them all, giving up McDonagh for Gomez and his huge cap hit have put this team into a death spiral. Had we just given Koivu a fair contract and avoided this whole Gomez debacle, we would be much better off.

I for one will be very upset if Molson does not clean house after our final game of the season. Please keep Timmins, but it is time for someone who knows talent and who will actually be liked by his peers.

Do you think teams give Gauthier favourable deals because they like him? No of course not....the ghost is likely not liked by other GM's so the only deals he can make are deals that he gets screwed on.

Time to bring in a social butterfly type who can be liked by his peers and his players. Someone who can create an environment that is liked by the players and that embraces their strengths. There is a reason that one or two players a year ask for trades out of Montreal. The SH** rolls downhill and it eventually ends up on our young talented players that Timmins does a good job of finding. Then management lacks the composure to actually get a good return for them.
Agreed.

PG has got to go.

At least BG had the profound respect of the players and the league.

... even if he did gamble incorrectly that Gomez could regain his old form once out of New York.

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Old
03-20-2012, 11:06 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
We seem to agree on mostly everything except for Gainey's part in this fiasco. I don't excuse Gainey one bit. He's just as much to blame as Gauthier - if not more.

every time I bring up his name as one of the culprits, his fans pipe up with the Rivet & Kovalev trade.

I'll hand it to Bobsled. He won the Rivet trade but it wasn't Rivet for Gorges & Patches. It was Rivet for Gorges & a 1st. Timmins made the Patches part happen. But yes Gainey won that trade.

As for the Kovalev trade there you see the real incompetence of this man as a GM. He gave Sather the choice of Balej or Pleks. Sather made the mistake of picking Balej. How good would that trade look today if Sather had picked Pleks instead?

So basically you've got the Rivet & Kovalev trade on one end of the scale and a truck load of ridiculous blunders on the other end.
I agree that Gainey has to take some of the blame. I am just saying that he started off well. In fact, we were all praising Gainey for the first few years. Seems that he went off the rails with his family issues and that also coincided with Gauthier's promotion.

Just funny that the majority of the horrible moves started happening once Gauthier was given more responsibility.

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Old
03-20-2012, 11:29 AM
  #29
Grant McCagg
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
3 things:

1- We know already that we've produced the most NHL'ers or close to it.
2- We didn't hit homeruns.......yet. Which is something Price, Subban and MaxPac should take care of. But it is true that we've missed on potential great players. That 2003 and 2006 were key drafts and that we missed on them, also 2004 yet, the pool were thinner to choose from. That, I believe, for a guy who drools over the US, as he should, we should have a better record. So as in our own backyard.
Why do you consider 2006 a key draft - solely because we missed on a smallish (at the time) northern Ontario kid who was passed over by the OHL and then 20+ NHL teams? Because that one kid happens to be a francophone? It was clear in 2006 and even more clear today that it wasn't a deep draft year, and the Habs drafted in the latter part of the first round, so why was it so key?

The Habs were wise to move down..San Jose gave up a second rounder to move UP to pick Wishart..imagine how Hab fan would whine about that if it had been the Habs who did that! :-)

The 2007 draft was a key one for the organization as it had a top 12 pick, two first rounders, and three picks in the top 42. The club hit THREE home runs..withhold judgement if you like, but there's not a club in the league that wouldn't want Subban, Patch and Mac in their lineup. Whether Mac was dealt or not is irrelevant in this discussion - it is a look at amateur scouting..not club management.

As for 2003...without question there were better picks than AK..it was Timmins' first draft as head scout and he deferred strongly to his staff... it was a gamble that didn't pay off, but it's not like the pick was a bust....the club got 100 goals, 200 points and a future second round pick out of him. Of the 16 forwards drafted after AK in that special class, AK has outscored 9 of them....so you can't simply say it was a bust pick...far from it.

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Old
03-20-2012, 11:44 AM
  #30
Whitesnake
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Other teams miss too!

How many other teams wish they had drafted MacPac? McDonagh and Subban?

Of course we could had drafted Frolov, Williams or Volchenkov instead of Marcel Hossa, but what about, Kryukov, Nedorost, Smirnov, Vorobiev, Yabukov, Kranhn, Alexeev, Jonsson All of them drafted before Hossa but didnt played as many game as Hossa.

Was Marcel Hossa a hit or miss? He was not too shabby for the rank he was drafted in 2000. (16th overall)
I'm done with "but other teams missed too". YES, THEY DID. Let their fans take care about it. I'm a Habs fan and prefer to look at what we could have done differently, which is way less than what Calgary could whine about for sure, yet, I'm more talking about strategy and way of thinking than the actual picks themselves. I don't think that I've never heard people whining about missing on guys like Shea Weber for example. Which prooves again that it's not what it's about. My small problem with him is the fact that for a guy who put the US system in front of everything else, he has to do better. If the US are somewhat our Detroit's Europe, you need to do better and find those gems. Now, I do know my comparison isn't the greatest 'cause one of the main reasons why Detroit was so good it's for the lack of viewing from other teams and they benefitted from it, which can't be the case for the US since everybody recognize that. Yet, THAT example fits perfectly well for the Q. While having to deal with less great player in that league, there are still good players nonetheless. And seeing that most teams don't believe in that league AT ALL, you'd think we'd make sure it could become our Europe-lite. Let just say that Giroux is an example of it. Or Perron. Or Bergeron. Or Pominville. Or Letang. Or even our beloved Marchand. And a few others. Much tougher 'cause less candidates. But they are there.

Timmins is amongst the greatest if not the best. Yet, even the best have things to improve.

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03-20-2012, 12:07 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
3 things:

1- We know already that we've produced the most NHL'ers or close to it.
2- We didn't hit homeruns.......yet. Which is something Price, Subban and MaxPac should take care of. But it is true that we've missed on potential great players. That 2003 and 2006 were key drafts and that we missed on them, also 2004 yet, the pool were thinner to choose from. That, I believe, for a guy who drools over the US, as he should, we should have a better record. So as in our own backyard.
3-And that drafting record should on his own fire Gauthier and Gainey. You can't be at the top of the drafting class and not be able to have a significant and gradual improvement as a team. You can't take those good draft picks like Streit, Grabs and Co and don't transform them into NOTHING. You can't have so many prospects do better elsewhere. We surely have the worst team of the league for that feature.

So clearly Timmins isn't the proble. But we've already established that already. Problem is that some still want to keep the guys who clearly stopped us from improving. Just because they made us a better team than the Réjean Houle era....Geez, when you are look as good people because you are doing better than Houle....are you really good? Or are the expectations set really really reallllllllllly low?
As usual I agree with most of your post.

I think you're being unfair trying to cherrypick stars in drafts that we didn't get though.
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
It's like that Seinfeld episode when the car rental company doesn't hold the reservation.

Anyone can draft a good player, the important part is to hold on to the good player.
This is... just an awesome post.
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Originally Posted by airic000 View Post
Fischer over Giroux. It still hurts
Don't see why it would. Happens all the time. Why cherrypick one player who was drafted late in the first round five or six picks after us? Makes no sense to do this.
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Originally Posted by RaMMuT View Post
Everytime I see or hear Ryan McDonagh's name I
Now THAT hurts. Dumbest trade in a looooong time on our part. McD, Subban and Pac all in the same draft... and we screw it up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
We seem to agree on mostly everything except for Gainey's part in this fiasco. I don't excuse Gainey one bit. He's just as much to blame as Gauthier - if not more.
Sure he is. He sucked.

But I agree with that other poster, his first half tenure wasn't bad. He didn't rebuild aggressively enough but at least he was building via the draft and showing patience.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Giroux wasn't even the player the Flyers wanted. They were targeting Sanguinetti at that slot, but the Rangers swooped in and grabbed him.

Hell, Bobby Clarke couldn't even remember Giroux's name when it was time to make the selection. Sometimes you get lucky and miss the player you were hoping for and have a gem fall in your lap. Simple as that.

The Canadiens have drafted well.
In 1983 Detroit was really upset that they didn't get Pat Lafontaine. Lafontaine was a local boy and was projected to be a superstar player. Unfortunately for the Wings, he was drafted by the Isels and Lafontaine did go onto fulfill his promise and became a top point getter. He was uber dominant in the early 90s and at one point finished 2nd only to Mario Lemieux in points before running into concussion problems.

So, Detroit had to settle for the 4th overall. Turned out to be Steve Yzerman.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 03-20-2012 at 12:13 PM.
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Old
03-20-2012, 12:07 PM
  #32
Whitesnake
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Why do you consider 2006 a key draft - solely because we missed on a smallish (at the time) northern Ontario kid who was passed over by the OHL and then 20+ NHL teams? Because that one kid happens to be a francophone? It was clear in 2006 and even more clear today that it wasn't a deep draft year, and the Habs drafted in the latter part of the first round, so why was it so key?

The Habs were wise to move down..San Jose gave up a second rounder to move UP to pick Wishart..imagine how Hab fan would whine about that if it had been the Habs who did that! :-)

The 2007 draft was a key one for the organization as it had a top 12 pick, two first rounders, and three picks in the top 42. The club hit THREE home runs..withhold judgement if you like, but there's not a club in the league that wouldn't want Subban, Patch and Mac in their lineup. Whether Mac was dealt or not is irrelevant in this discussion - it is a look at amateur scouting..not club management.

As for 2003...without question there were better picks than AK..it was Timmins' first draft as head scout and he deferred strongly to his staff... it was a gamble that didn't pay off, but it's not like the pick was a bust....the club got 100 goals, 200 points and a future second round pick out of him. Of the 16 forwards drafted after AK in that special class, AK has outscored 9 of them....so you can't simply say it was a bust pick...far from it.
Well, 2006 was obviously a key draft in retrospect. And I don't see how him being passed over in the OHL as being relevant, on the contrary, a guy like him and Perron who have sudden burst of greatness are known to continue on that path and just happen to postpone their development. This smallish forward happened to be good enough for a team not known as liking to be small. Obviously, we'd say that we had enough smallish players, yet when there's talent, that's why BPA prevails. Fischer had just as much question marks as Giroux. While Giroux was questioned about his size and his size alone, Fischer's was seen as a possible great move IF he was able to put everything together.

And yes, I also say it 'cause he is a franco or a player that played in the Q as I mentioned in the post previously to that one. I personnally believe that we could do a better job in that league even if the pool of talent is thinner than it ever was. This does not mean to solely draft from it, 'cause if you know me, I also happen to be a big US system fan. And at one point, any league would do as far as we get the right players. But for a team who put that much effort in a league to a point of having a 2nd personal combine for players of the Q and a few other players, you need to do better. But it was known at the time that the 2006 and 2007 drafts served as building a D class we didn't have a lot of. Which to me, blurred the process of getting the best player at that rank. It's not like Giroux went in the 4th round here. We are not talking about Pageau here, who the Habs were interested in.

And smallish for smallish, we did end up going with Leblanc who, in the end, will be much smaller player than Caron or Kreider. Or Gallagher even if it was only in the 5th round. Yet, when a guy is a BPA, who cares about the size. Yet, I don't think Fischer was a BPA at the time based on the comments I just made about the needs at the time.

As far as moving down, well if it was to pick Fischer, of course they did. And a wise move it was 'cause he was surely going to be available and even if he would have been gone, nobody would have cried. So that's why they did it. By the way, we did move up and gave a 2nd rounder. Yet, the result is called Tinordi. So we'll see how that will turn out. Thank got we got a 4th round though. And that result is probably a really good news down the road.

Surely, 2007 does look like an incredible draft. I don't deny that. So it does look as incredible potential yet, you cannot say already that they are homeruns but just that they are projecting as homeruns. There are a couple of things needed like consistency to be already be proclaimed as surefire homeruns. I HAVE NO DOUBT they will. But they are not there yet. We will need some great playoffs from Price. We will need more than 1 30-goal season of Pac, and some consistency by Subban for the remainder of his career. Which again, I have no doubt they will. Mac being gone is not relevant to the discussion. A terrible mistake that has nothing to do with Timmins. Unless he was asked about and agreed to move him, which I doubt very much.

2003 was not as bad as some other teams had like the Rags and others. Point is Philly was able to be a better team from that moment on. And now, they are a good team based on the return of it. Yes, there are other factors. We all know that. Anaheim won the Cup mostly because of how they picked at that point with other factors. And they still have those players to this day, with mixed results, I know. Yet, who wouldn't have those players in their team? As far as we're concerned, we were better with Kostitsyn than Jessiman. But we succeeded in not being satisfied with Kosty most of his career except his stint with Pleks and Kovy. And we ended up with a return of Geoffrion and a 2nd. Not the worst draft pick ever, I think that it's not always black and white, grey has to be in order here. But not the best pick either. And I will not buy the "if his healthy would have been better, he would have gone top 5". Sorry, but we are not the only team in the league with doctors. We are not the only ones who could have figured out that the only think he needed what a change of medication. There were questions about his work ethic and hockey sense as well. Though you will say others has had the same questions like Getzlaf and Carter. True. Question marks for question marks, why not going with a big centerman? Or a guy, despite his smallish stature, that was known to have only one weakness, his size, in Parise? Another guy who was clearly a BPA at his pick and should have went earlier if BPA would have been the only way of seeing it. He didn't have a whole lot of flaws in his draft year.

Yes, everybody makes mistakes. I'm just talking about ways to improve. Not about firing anybody, on the contrary. I keep mentioning how he is the only good news of thsi organization.

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03-20-2012, 01:04 PM
  #33
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I wonder why the author acts so shocked. Anyone following the draft at all should have seen the results coming. By pretty much any objective measure, Montreal has been a fantastic drafting team for years.

It's the "keep them" part they've had serious trouble with, but for finding players, few if any clubs have done so well.

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03-20-2012, 03:39 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by airic000 View Post
Fischer over Giroux. It still hurts
It was not that bad, Fischer didnt bust for nothing! (2nd round draft compensation, we got more for Fischer than Colombus for Filatov)


Last edited by palindrom: 03-20-2012 at 03:45 PM.
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03-20-2012, 03:48 PM
  #35
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We are good at drafting nhl players, the problem is always drafting 3rd, 4th liners make us a team of 3rd, 4th liners, lol !
Thats what the "slugging percentage" part of this is supposed to measure. Turns out Montreal is pretty good at getting good player in the draft too.

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03-20-2012, 03:56 PM
  #36
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I've always thought the "Timmins can't draft first rounder" complain was crap created by a too small data centers, and I think the last years confirmed this.

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03-20-2012, 04:10 PM
  #37
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Old news to most of us, but maybe fans of other teams will take notice. Too many of them are already cheering on some good Timmins gems.

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03-20-2012, 06:56 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post



Sure he is. He sucked.

But I agree with that other poster, his first half tenure wasn't bad. He didn't rebuild aggressively enough but at least he was building via the draft and showing patience.
You mean the first half of the tenure wasn't as putrid as the second half but it was putrid all the same. And i don't buy this passing the buck onto Gauthier's shoulders. You guys can't have it both ways. If you excuse Gainey for listening to Gauthier's counsel then you have to admit that Gainey is a poor judge of management talent so there's no way he should be in a management position. I loved him as a player and I think he's a decent fellow but so was Robinson but I wouldn't want him as GM.

Gauthier has been in place only two years. I agree he has shown himself to be incompetent but he also has had to deal with Gainey's ridiculous moves.

I've mentioned this a number of times. Timmins and his staff have done unbelievable work. Their picks could have helped stock the rosters of 2 NHL teams. And both Gainey's & Gauthier's tenures are now trying to prove that Timmins and his staff can stock the rosters of a half dozen teams.

With Timmins as head scout and a nimrod like Milbury as GM I think we would have been SC contenders. That's how little I think of Gainey's and Gauthier's work and how highly I value Timmins and his staff.

And i have a sick feeling that the new GM will send Timmins packing. I know McGuire has been critical of our drafting on a number of occasions. If I were Molson, that would be my first question to all the GM candidates. What do you think of Timmins? The slightest hint of criticism and I would cross the bugger off my list of possible GMs.


Last edited by onice: 03-20-2012 at 07:06 PM.
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Old
03-21-2012, 01:19 AM
  #39
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Still was our second best defenseman prospect behind Subban at that point, and defensemen usually take longer to develop.

There's also the fact that we gave up something of value for a pricey stack of garbage.
And I remember reading/hearing at the time too that when Timmins found out McDo was traded he was floored, something equivalent of having his arm ripped out of its socket. So if memory serves me correctly, he probably didn't want McDo traded.

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03-21-2012, 09:58 AM
  #40
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And I remember reading/hearing at the time too that when Timmins found out McDo was traded he was floored, something equivalent of having his arm ripped out of its socket. So if memory serves me correctly, he probably didn't want McDo traded.


Trevor's too much of a company man to openly criticize any deals his GM makes. I consider him a friend and he's never once complained about any of the 15 or so draft picks he's seen go on to play with other teams even if I have...but he was very sad to see Mac go..more than any other player he's drafted.

Of course he didn't want him traded. What he said at me at the time was "he's a thoroughbred!" He was his baby. He always predicted big things for him, he just realized it would take him a few years as he was a raw high schooler when he drafted him that needed some coaching and experience.

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