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Old
03-21-2012, 02:20 PM
  #51
Cappayne
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I've read through the thread and agree with haayward's posts.

I personally go to one game max a year since I no longer live in the area during the season, but I wouldn't boo the team. Is that what is the message here, to cheer on the boys no matter what? I think Leafs fans have the right to be upset. They've been led on by the GM and this team is performing WORSE than before Burke came here. Don't give me this 'prospect depth' and 'Marlies are looking better than ever' spiel. The team has no star prospects, and the major holes on the Leafs are not going to be filled by those prospects. The bulk of the prospects are role players. Those are the types of guys teams can add at trade deadlines when the team is ready to compete. At the end of the day, Colborne is not a #1C and he's the best C prospect, and the rest of the guys are complimentary pieces at best.

Burke incorrectly evaluated the state of the team when he arrived, and Leafs fans have been watching for 4 years as Burke pretends like everything is going according to plan. People pay lots of money to go to games, and when the Leafs play well, the stadium is electrifying. But when the team has lost 10 of 11 games, it's understandable that people get impatient. And those fans who make stupid decisions are usually casual fans that are intoxicated so you're not preaching to that crowd here. But ultimately it's the players who have lost confidence, and that's not because the fan base having a poor attitude on message boards. Yes the media sucks, but we here aren't exactly the media, as far as I know.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:22 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Burke has made his bed. Now he will lie in it. Burke has never missed a chance to take a poke at the media and fans. recently calling fans "sheep". I don't give a rats ass if these million dollar cry babies feelings are hurt.
Fight fire with fire and expect to get burned. Another mob mentality, which only cares about punishing failures.

My message(s) are to my fellow fans, who want, and will act, to see their team succeed.

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Originally Posted by wandering goat View Post
Absolutely. After all, we fans are being paid millions of dollars to watch the game and cheer on the players, so anyone can see how hypocritical we are in. . . Oh wait, we're actually paying to watch them, and us doing so is what allows the players to earn their high salaries? Huh. . .

Seriously, I can see how anyone might think that it would be better if the fans didn't heckle the team and get on the players so much, but fans are in no way hypocritical by voicing their displeasure after paying hard earned money (and higher ticket prices than most, if not any other, teams) and spending their time to be treated to substandard play. It would even be one thing if fans got on the team after just a few losses. But this is 7 years without playoffs now, collapse after collapse after collapse, with this one now being relatively epic in proportion. Fans absolutely have the right to voice their displeasure, and while players are of course human, this kind of pressure and attention comes with the territory when you're playing at the highest level of hockey in the world and being paid hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars for it. They're certainly not being paid that much to just have fun out there, or need to be coddled and protected from the media, they're professionals that are paid to win so that the fans are happy and in turn, support the team financially.

And because I can see it coming, the argument of "if you don't like it, stop watching / being a fan" is nonsense in this case. First because just because people boo the team doesn't mean they've given up on them forever or want to stop watching games - they just want improvement, so that their favourite team can finally have some success. And second, without fans, the team couldn't exist period. The Leafs are just in an enviable position though in that no matter how bad they are, they always have tons of financial support. All in all, I am still a Leafs fan even if I'm disappointed at our past and present lack of success, and I think labeling fans of being "hypocrites" for wanting calling for improvement of a team that's perpetually disappointing is absolute ********.
I believe a player investment of their whole life and their public reputation is of more value than the money we spend or they make.

We are hypocrites, as I said before, because we collapse in our main function as a supporting mass, and berate them for collapsing. Among other reasons, as well.

As I said before; it would be redundant for the fans to reward winning with support. There wouldn't be any point to it if we're only supporting them while they're already winning. They reward our support by winning. That is an equitable trade-off.

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Originally Posted by Edgeworth View Post
What are you talking about? In 4 years Toronto could have had Kadri, Seguin, Hamilton, and most likely a top 5 pick or somethign more this year.

He picked a path and it he screwed up. He's not much better then JFJ in trading picks it seems. He hasn't improved the overall product that much just made it younger. I don't get why he is defended. This year was awful for him, very moves of note. He was stagnant and its hurt the organization big time.
We could have had a lot of things, but we don't. Moaning over what could have been is useless. Seguin was never ours. Hamilton was never ours. Those are less than sunken costs, because we never owned them.

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Originally Posted by Northern Dancer View Post
Leafs have 7 first round picks from the past 4 drafts plus Phill Kessel.
Cheers!

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:24 PM
  #53
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After 7 years of crap we deserve to show our frustration. Spending 500 dollars to see that heartless team play, we're not supposed to be upset??? Cheering them on only encourages them to be mediocre in my opinion.

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03-21-2012, 02:25 PM
  #54
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I've never been more disgusted to call myself a leaf fan.
This thread only confirms that feeling even more.

Ya'll sound like abused wives - making excuses for how great their husbands are.



Denial.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:27 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
Fight fire with fire and expect to get burned. Another mob mentality, which only cares about punishing failures.

My message(s) are to my fellow fans, who want, and will act, to see their team succeed.



I believe a player investment of their whole life and their public reputation is of more value than the money we spend or they make.

We are hypocrites, as I said before, because we collapse in our main function as a supporting mass, and berate them for collapsing. Among other reasons, as well.

As I said before; it would be redundant for the fans to reward winning with support. There wouldn't be any point to it if we're only supporting them while they're already winning. They reward our support by winning. That is an equitable trade-off.



We could have had a lot of things, but we don't. Moaning over what could have been is useless. Seguin was never ours. Hamilton was never ours. Those are less than sunken costs, because we never owned them.



Cheers!
So you're saying we should blindly support the Leafs, give them our money, and just be ok with mediocrity? Haha, yeah, no. That's called being an idiot. When Boston had the 8th overall pick NO ONE was at that arena that season. Chicago was vacant until the rebuild, etc. etc. Pittsburgh same issue.

Toronto fans always pack the stadium no matter what, they still suck. Low pressure means lower effort. You always work a little harder when you have personal interest (usually from a single owner pressuring you) or pressure from ownership because of lost dollars.

Niether is happening.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:28 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morlu View Post
After 7 years of crap we deserve to show our frustration. Spending 500 dollars to see that heartless team play, we're not supposed to be upset??? Cheering them on only encourages them to be mediocre in my opinion.
If cheering them on encourages them to be mediocre, what does booing, heckling, and berating them do?

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03-21-2012, 02:29 PM
  #57
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I think people have every right to be pissed off and to voice their concerns. After all, we are closing in on a half century of frustration.

When is the last time that you saw cheerleaders win a basketball game?

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:29 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
If cheering them on encourages them to be mediocre, what does booing, heckling, and berating them do?
Lets management know you're unhappy. That you want a change.

Seriously do you want to pay me 500$ to tick you off or frustrate you? Cause I can do that.

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03-21-2012, 02:31 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
30% of the fans on this board alone voted to have him fired. That is a significant percentage that is rising. Just read these boards and you will see that many fans are very close to looking for change and 30 percent have already stated they want it now.

That's what happens when the GM is the face of the club and he publicly states how he builds his team and what his intentions are. Burke didn't say things like be patient. He said he has no patience himself. He was very specific with his impatience and didn't mince words. So why should the fans be patient when the GM has stated isn't and that he has done it before so therefore will do it again?
30% of the fans on this board who bothered to vote in the poll. 70% of those same fans don't want him fired.

You say it is rising. Do you have anything to back that claim up?

And do you really think it this board is representative of the Leafs fanbase as a whole? I certainly don't. I think the noisy lunatic fringe of Leafs Nation has a much higher presence on these boards than amongst other gathering of Leaf fans and personal, i think they have driven away a number of the more rational posters.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:31 PM
  #60
Ometheus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgeworth View Post
So you're saying we should blindly support the Leafs, give them our money, and just be ok with mediocrity? Haha, yeah, no. That's called being an idiot. When Boston had the 8th overall pick NO ONE was at that arena that season. Chicago was vacant until the rebuild, etc. etc. Pittsburgh same issue.

Toronto fans always pack the stadium no matter what, they still suck. Low pressure means lower effort. You always work a little harder when you have personal interest (usually from a single owner pressuring you) or pressure from ownership because of lost dollars.

Niether is happening.
I'm saying that if you're a fan, then you should support the team.

If you no longer consider yourself a fan, then this does not apply to you, and you may do as you please.

As I said, the players invest their entire lives, and their public reputation. To say that they have low pressure is misconstrued reasoning.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:32 PM
  #61
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I love how fans in this thread make it seem like they're forced to pay $500 for tickets.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:32 PM
  #62
Ometheus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgeworth View Post
Lets management know you're unhappy. That you want a change.

Seriously do you want to pay me 500$ to tick you off or frustrate you? Cause I can do that.
That lets the players know you're unhappy, and does little more than shake their confidence and step on them while they're drowning.

There is a very very large insulation, in Toronto especially, between the fans and the management.

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03-21-2012, 02:32 PM
  #63
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I believe a player investment of their whole life and their public reputation is of more value than the money we spend or they make.
What is this even supposed to mean? My point is that without fans, a team would not be able to exist, as simple as that. Fans are the entire reason that sports can exist on a professional level, they are where all the money stems from. Without a doubt, a players skill, training, and hard work is what gives them value, but without people willing to pay to watch them play, they would need a day job, and would never have the incentive to develop their game anywhere near the point that they have.

Quote:
We are hypocrites, as I said before, because we collapse in our main function as a supporting mass, and berate them for collapsing. Among other reasons, as well.
And this line of logic is ridiculous, which I sarcastically pointed out in my first paragraph. We are not professionals being paid to support their team, and in fact exist on the other side of the spectrum, supporting the players livelihoods financially, so holding us to the same standard as we hold the team is simply absurd. It's a step above responding to someone criticizing a player by saying, "I'd like to see you play better."

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:33 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Edgeworth View Post
I seriously don't get how he can be defended.
It simple.

We went from no legitimate top 6 players to having 4 / 5. We went from maybe two prospects rated as a "7" or better on HF to having 75% of our top 20 rated "7" or better. We went from a team full of COMPLETE no trades where we couldn't sell when we wanted to to having tons of cap flexibiliy.

On these boards you can say Biggs is a 3rd liner, but if he was on another team he'd be considered the next Backes.

Our 3rd line guys this year would have been our 1st line the year Burke took over. THAT's progress. There is a natural development and growth period for young teams, a time when things like confidence have way more effect than they would on a vet team - but that will pass.

I'm now convinced that we could have Crosby and all the threads here would be ripping him as "injury prone" and how he's hurting our cap space

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:34 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
I'm saying that if you're a fan, then you should support the team.

If you no longer consider yourself a fan, then this does not apply to you, and you may do as you please.

As I said, the players invest their entire lives, and their public reputation. To say that they have low pressure is misconstrued reasoning.
If you're a fan you want to see that team do well, when they don't do well you are allowed to pressure them because you paid 180$ for your jersey, upwards of 200$ to go to a single game, it goes on and on.

The players, coaches and GM's all do that, but guess what? They're also being paid millions of dollars. If they don't do well, trade them. I don't care about Joffrey Lupul, he's a good hockey player right now, but I personally don't care about him, if he can be traded for an upgrade you do it. I put the Leafs over their roster.

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03-21-2012, 02:36 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Burke has made his bed. Now he will lie in it. Burke has never missed a chance to take a poke at the media and fans. recently calling fans "sheep". I don't give a rats ass if these million dollar cry babies feelings are hurt.
Burke called fans "sheep"? Really? When was this?

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:37 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by wandering goat View Post
What is this even supposed to mean? My point is that without fans, a team would not be able to exist, as simple as that. Fans are the entire reason that sports can exist on a professional level, they are where all the money stems from. Without a doubt, a players skill, training, and hard work is what gives them value, but without people willing to pay to watch them play, they would need a day job, and would never have the incentive to develop their game anywhere near the point that they have.



And this line of logic is ridiculous, which I sarcastically pointed out in my first paragraph. We are not professionals being paid to support their team, and in fact exist on the other side of the spectrum, supporting the players livelihoods financially, so holding us to the same standard as we hold the team is simply absurd. It's a step above responding to someone criticizing a player by saying, "I'd like to see you play better."
The entire sport exists for the fans. I've never denied that. A government is nothing without people, an engine is pointless without fuel, and the mind is useless without the body.

However, like each of the things listed above, it goes both ways. They co-exist. If one is not working well, the other falters.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:38 PM
  #68
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When you have a GM like Burke come in and make all the loud bombastic pronouncements about building strategy, timeframes, philosophies like he did to our fanbase, you better deliver. This isn't a "cheering" for your "champ" type situation when they're down. This is more like angry peasants getting together with their pitchforks and storming up to the castle... We still love the Leafs, just not the people who wear the jersey or the guy who's running the team.

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03-21-2012, 02:39 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
Fight fire with fire and expect to get burned. Another mob mentality, which only cares about punishing failures.

My message(s) are to my fellow fans, who want, and will act, to see their team succeed.



I believe a player investment of their whole life and their public reputation is of more value than the money we spend or they make.

We are hypocrites, as I said before, because we collapse in our main function as a supporting mass, and berate them for collapsing. Among other reasons, as well.

As I said before; it would be redundant for the fans to reward winning with support. There wouldn't be any point to it if we're only supporting them while they're already winning. They reward our support by winning. That is an equitable trade-off.



We could have had a lot of things, but we don't. Moaning over what could have been is useless. Seguin was never ours. Hamilton was never ours. Those are less than sunken costs, because we never owned them.



Cheers!
It has taken 8 years of no playoffs and the LONGEST cup drought in the NHL to get here. Montreal, Philly, NYR fans would get here after 3 months.

This fan base has been PLENTY patient. It's time to turn the mob loose.

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03-21-2012, 02:40 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Ometheus View Post
You need a base and support to build something. You need a mob to tear it down.

You're welcome to your own opinion, though this is mob mentality, not fan mentality.
What you preach is good in theory but its really isn't practical at all. 7 straight years missing the playoffs would have destroyed most organizations but the Leaf fans have given strong support year after year with no results to show for it. 7 years of incompetence.

The mob is the next step in the chain here and is necessary to get this organization back on the right track. Burke has failed the Leafs and there is absolutely zero sign that anything will improve. This is the team he has constructed and its time to tear it down and do a proper rebuild... on rock and not sand.

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03-21-2012, 02:40 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Drew75 View Post
It simple.

We went from no legitimate top 6 players to having 4 / 5. We went from maybe two prospects rated as a "7" or better on HF to having 75% of our top 20 rated "7" or better. We went from a team full of COMPLETE no trades where we couldn't sell when we wanted to to having tons of cap flexibiliy.

On these boards you can say Biggs is a 3rd liner, but if he was on another team he'd be considered the next Backes.

Our 3rd line guys this year would have been our 1st line the year Burke took over. THAT's progress. There is a natural development and growth period for young teams, a time when things like confidence have way more effect than they would on a vet team - but that will pass.

I'm now convinced that we could have Crosby and all the threads here would be ripping him as "injury prone" and how he's hurting our cap space
Backes? What? He doesn't have Backes upside. Maybe like the absolute best he coudl ever be is Backes? Maybe? It'd be a huge stretch.

Even at draft his projected comparable was Colby Armstrong. A 3rd liner. The proven top six guys are Lupul, Kessel, and Grabovski. Kulemin and MacArthur aren't playing like top sixers, Bozak is a 2nd line center on a good day but most likely a 3rd line center.

He had 4 years, go back and look through how teams have transformed themselves over 4 years.

I seriously don't get it.


@Ometheus

Burke sits in the ACC as does Carlyle, the MLSE usually will watch the game or someone in that organization relays to them what happened if it hasnt alraedy been tweeted about by all the reporters.

We can punish the players all we want. This team isn't that great.

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Old
03-21-2012, 02:41 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
It has taken 8 years of no playoffs and the LONGEST cup drought in the NHL to get here. Montreal, Philly, NYR fans would get here after 3 months.

This fan base has been PLENTY patient. It's time to turn the mob loose.
Haha posted at same time.

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03-21-2012, 02:41 PM
  #73
Ometheus
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Originally Posted by Edgeworth View Post
If you're a fan you want to see that team do well, when they don't do well you are allowed to pressure them because you paid 180$ for your jersey, upwards of 200$ to go to a single game, it goes on and on.

The players, coaches and GM's all do that, but guess what? They're also being paid millions of dollars. If they don't do well, trade them. I don't care about Joffrey Lupul, he's a good hockey player right now, but I personally don't care about him, if he can be traded for an upgrade you do it. I put the Leafs over their roster.
You're upset because of money? My post appeals to the spirit of the game and the fans, not the materialistic woes.

My post never mentioned choosing a person and supporting that person, but at any given time, the Maple Leafs ARE their roster. Until they're no longer putting on the Blue and White, I'll support them.

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03-21-2012, 02:42 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
People want change because they are unhappy with the product. Of course they will voice their displeasure. So many broken promises.
The Winnipeg Jets are a pretty ****** team but the fans here don't care, they go nuts every game and the Jets home vs away record clearly shows the difference a loyal fanbase can make. Same with Detroit.

Get fans that cheer for better or worse and there will be a lot less worse to be had.

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03-21-2012, 02:43 PM
  #75
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The Winnipeg Jets are a pretty ****** team but the fans here don't care, they go nuts every game and the Jets home vs away record clearly shows the difference a loyal fanbase can make. Same with Detroit.

Get fans that cheer for better or worse and there will be a lot less worse to be had.
Not shocking at all. You just got your franchise back. If you are still cheering after 7 years of failure then you might have a point.

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