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KHL vs NHL (skills and pace of the game)

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Old
03-20-2012, 04:27 PM
  #51
RewBicks
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Originally Posted by malkinfan View Post
Good list, however the list can be extended massively.

Afinogenov left the NHL on a career year with 30g 70pts. Artyukhin said he walked away from NHL offers. Svitov I believe was signed with Columbus then changed his mind and the contract was terminated. Saprykin was resigned by Ottawa then when the new GM came in they mutually reversed the contract. Viktor Kozlov left after a great playoff run with the Caps, as did Fedorov. Sopel says on his twitter page that He has rejected 3 one way NHL deals. Dallman also rejected one way NHL deals and resigned with Astana. The devils traded for rights to Korolyuk and tried aggressively to sign him for playoff run a few years back. Flyers wanted to sign Evgeny Bodrov, who is a very under rated player. Zherdev obviously has talents that could have an effect in NHL if he finds right team (Laviolette and him clashed, Lav is a hot head coach). Colorado tried to sign Parshin two season ago. list can go on for miles
Afinogenov was not worth whatever contract he was demanding. He is not an impact player in the NHL, he is a regular season point producer (when there aren't better impact players ahead of him who can play in the top-six) who can be completely shut down when times get tough. He had a couple of good seasons on a run and gun team in Buffalo - that couldn't get it done in the NHL playoffs.

The rest are marginal NHL players, including Zherdev who is lazy, has a bad attitude, and despite his skill, has never been able to produce consistently at an NHL level despite being given many, many chances. MANY chances.


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03-20-2012, 06:42 PM
  #52
Mr Kanadensisk
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Some NHL homers might think so... me, not so much.
1) I for my part never made an excuse for Carolina. SKA won and it was a fair result, period. Why wouldn't one of the top teams of the KHL be able to defeat a mediocre NHL team? The KHL is not that far behind of the NHL.
I think maybe you guys are reading WAY WAY too much into the results of a single exhibition game. It's kind of like concluding that the Oilers are better than the Rangers this year because they beat them in a preseason game.

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03-20-2012, 07:06 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
True, Khimik had a tight schedule as well on their tour. The difference is: With 6 games against NHL teams and 0 Soviet League games ahead, they were exclusively focused on the international exhibition in the first half of December 1989. While the St.Louis Blues had 6 or 7 regular NHL games (all counting in the standings) and 1 exhibition game against Khimik ahead. If I were the Blues GM or Coach, guess which one of the 8 games I would take the lighest and would consider sparing a couple of players for...

A counter-example: In September 1989 the Calgary Flames and the Washington Capitals - both strong teams in the 1989-90 NHL season, just like Khimik Voskresensk in the 1989-90 Soviet League - visited the Soviet Union for an exhibition. The record:
Flames: .750 / 3 games won (including one against Khimik), 1 lost.
Capitals: .750 / 3 games won, 1 lost.
Both played 4 games in 7 days, all on large ice - but not in the middle of the regular NHL schedule, I guess that's the difference.

Like Mr Kanadensisk said, your putting too much emphasis on single game instances.

We have a boatload of exhibitions played. Even if only exhibition games and some may have been during odd circumstances, it's quite easy to tell the relative strength of teams when there's a large sample size.

Even if you throw results out the window(which Soviet teams got the better of), its easy to notice those Soviet teams were just as talented as NHL clubs.



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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
As for Soviet League vs KHL:
I think the Soviet League was deeper in terms of talent level than the KHL is now, at least until the early 90s. We know what happened to the talent level in the Soviet/CIS League from 1989-1994, but before that it's a different story. True, there were no Červenkas, Mårtenssons and Immonens back then, but instead you had the Datsyuks, Ovechkins and Malkins. So generally I don't think KHL teams would do as well against NHL opposition as the Soviet teams did during the Super Series.
Right, but the Ovechkins, Malkins, etc. would have been concentrated on Dynamo/CSKA in the 1980s/90s. This is why I used Khimik as an example; or Latgale_fan used Riga.
Nobodys saying, top to bottom, KHL is par with NHL or Soviet league. However, top level KHL teams are easy NHL level.

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03-20-2012, 07:20 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Nobodys saying, top to bottom, KHL is par with NHL or Soviet league. However, top level KHL teams are easy NHL level.
As we have explained again and again most of the KHL's very best, most elite players ended up there because they couldn't make the NHL's worst teams. I know you desperately want what you are saying to be true, but it's just not, at least not yet.

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03-20-2012, 07:53 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
As we have explained again and again most of the KHL's very best, most elite players ended up there because they couldn't make the NHL's worst teams. I know you desperately want what you are saying to be true, but it's just not, at least not yet.
As we've explained again and again, top players fail because:
1. Couldn't adapt to small ice; or
2. couldn't play within a NA system of game.

We saw the same phenomenon 20 years ago......yet when these 'failure' players and teams were allowed to play a European style on small ice, they were just as good as NHL clubs. Nothing would suggest otherwise from top KHL teams.

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03-20-2012, 08:03 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
As we have explained again and again most of the KHL's very best, most elite players ended up there because they couldn't make the NHL's worst teams.
As it was explained earlier just because they lacked certain qualities which aren't so necessary in KHL's hockey. Can you honestly say that Mike Rupp is better hockey player than Afinogenov just because he's still playing in NHL? Is Pens' Engeland any better than recently traded Yuri Alexandrov or Andrei Zubarev? Engeland simply doesn't have an other "home league" to go back to, so he hangs around for eternity and gets more shots at making the NHL than any Russian player. If Engeland was a Russian he would be an "inferior" player playing in KHL long time ago.

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03-20-2012, 09:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
As we've explained again and again, top players fail because:
1. Couldn't adapt to small ice; or
2. couldn't play within a NA system of game.

We saw the same phenomenon 20 years ago......yet when these 'failure' players and teams were allowed to play a European style on small ice, they were just as good as NHL clubs. Nothing would suggest otherwise from top KHL teams.
The last time I checked the objective of each NHL team was to win. If there was a "Euro" style of play that was effective in the small ice NHL, especially with less talented players, then I think someone might have tried it by now. It's not like there aren't hundreds of Europeans already in the NHL and KHL game tape available to anyone who wants to use it. If a handful of exhibition games from 20 yrs ago is all your supporting proof then please don't waste my time.

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03-20-2012, 10:01 PM
  #58
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As it was explained earlier just because they lacked certain qualities which aren't so necessary in KHL's hockey. Can you honestly say that Mike Rupp is better hockey player than Afinogenov just because he's still playing in NHL? Is Pens' Engeland any better than recently traded Yuri Alexandrov or Andrei Zubarev? Engeland simply doesn't have an other "home league" to go back to, so he hangs around for eternity and gets more shots at making the NHL than any Russian player. If Engeland was a Russian he would be an "inferior" player playing in KHL long time ago.
There are players in the KHL who could play in the NHL, but the list is still very short and not nearly long enough to allow any current KHL teams to be competitive in the NHL. Hopefully with time it will get longer.

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03-20-2012, 11:13 PM
  #59
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The NHL has as much and more skill, its just there's a lot more hitting, so players arent willing to use there skill because they might get injured, which is a big part of hockey. But look at how guys like Tambellini, who never really made the big clubs, flourish there. Its a lot softer league so players can try different things

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03-20-2012, 11:28 PM
  #60
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The NHL has as much and more skill, its just there's a lot more hitting, so players arent willing to use there skill because they might get injured, which is a big part of hockey. But look at how guys like Tambellini, who never really made the big clubs, flourish there. Its a lot softer league so players can try different things
Tambellini doesn't even play in the KHL. He plays in the Swiss league. At least look it up, and stop guessing.

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03-21-2012, 12:07 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RewBicks View Post
Afinogenov was not worth whatever contract he was demanding. He is not an impact player in the NHL, he is a regular season point producer (when there aren't better impact players ahead of him who can play in the top-six) who can be completely shut down when times get tough. He had a couple of good seasons on a run and gun team in Buffalo - that couldn't get it done in the NHL playoffs.

The rest are marginal NHL players, including Zherdev who is lazy, has a bad attitude, and despite his skill, has never been able to produce consistently at an NHL level despite being given many, many chances. MANY chances.
I don't know many other 30 g 70 p NHL scorers who just disappear into the black hole the next season; reason citing poor playoff performer... That's because there is no black hole for 30g players, there is the KHL where there are better contracts available for most players.
In fact I only know of one guy who scored and disappeared - Anson Carter, who left to pursue a record company or something like this. Talk about an outlier!
As for the rest of the response, I'll pretend I stopped reading before I got to the part were I read the rest were just marginal players...

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03-21-2012, 02:12 AM
  #62
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And then a player like Nabokov comes and fails in the KHL. Marginal NHLers got the best of him.

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03-21-2012, 04:22 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
We have a boatload of exhibitions played. Even if only exhibition games and some may have been during odd circumstances, it's quite easy to tell the relative strength of teams when there's a large sample size.
Some during 'odd circumstances'? If 84 out of 92 exhibitions are played right in the middle of the NHL schedule, briefly after a boatload of regular NHL games and briefly before another boatload of regular NHL games, while the Soviet teams are free to focus on the exhibition, then the circumstances are generally slanted in disfavour of the NHL teams. Not that it was the Soviets' fault of course. The NHL GMs have one priority and that is $$$, not international competition for its own sake. They are the one to blame. Still, the results of the Super Series have to be taken with a grain of salt IMO.

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This is why I used Khimik as an example
Khimik was a elite team in 1989-90 though and still one of the better teams in the Soviet League in 1990-91.

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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
...or Latgale_fan used Riga.
Riga won 2 out of 7 games, not a strong argument.

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Nobodys saying, top to bottom, KHL is par with NHL or Soviet league. However, top level KHL teams are easy NHL level.
Fine, because that's my opinion too, no argument here.

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03-21-2012, 05:17 AM
  #64
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I don't know many other 30 g 70 p NHL scorers who just disappear into the black hole the next season; reason citing poor playoff performer... That's because there is no black hole for 30g players, there is the KHL where there are better contracts available for most players.
In fact I only know of one guy who scored and disappeared - Anson Carter, who left to pursue a record company or something like this. Talk about an outlier!
As for the rest of the response, I'll pretend I stopped reading before I got to the part were I read the rest were just marginal players...
Anson Carter and Afinogenov are not that different. Both had a strong season or two, and both demanded they be paid accordingly. Neither was worth the premium they were demanding. In Carter's case, that's because all of his success came while playing alongside the Sedins. In Afinogenov's case, it was because he was extremely inconsistent from year to year, and could not be counted on to score at all when checking tightened up even slightly.

Afinogenov had more lucrative offers elsewhere and he took them, but nobody in the NHL was going to pay him a "30-goal scorers wage" because of his inconsistency and inability to score when it matters (not to mention the fact that, contrary to your claims, he never actually scored 30 goals). On a good (but soft) team, he was a second-liner in the NHL - no good team could rely on a guy that inconsistent to play on their first line. So you're right, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make - he was a second line forward in the NHL who might get some first-line PP time. He was, by no stretch of the imagination, even a "very good" NHL player.

As for "pretend I'll stop reading":

Artyukhin = an NHL 4th liner (with occasional third line appearances) with size and speed who lacked the hockey iq to take it to the next level in the NHL.
Svitov = really?
Shirokov = borderline NHL talent, potentially a second liner on a mediocre to bad team. Low prospect of getting many bottom six minutes due to size, speed, defensive responsibility issues.
Saprykin = third liner, borderline second. A tweener at best.
Kozlov = old and wasn't going to get the "big paycheck" from an NHL team anymore. Thus, he was happy to go home and play for more money.
Fedorov = ditto. WAY past his prime when he cashed in.
Sopel = great guy, but ideally, a bottom pairing defenceman in the NHL. Second pairing on a mediocre to bad team.
Dallman = classic case of not enough skill to compensate for small size. Guys like this excel in lesser leagues all the time. The top 20 scorers in the AHL are littered with guys who don't have enough speed or size to cut it in the NHL, but blow lesser competition out of the water to a degree that many NHL players wouldn't be able to do. Jason Jaffray could very well outscore Jannik Hansen in the AHL. Would I want to trade them for one another? In any case, if he took the NHL deal (which I don't doubt was for a hell of a lot less money than he has the potential to make in Russia), we would find out what he could do. As it stands, he did nothing in his time in the NHL, and he's going to keep taking the money.
Bochenski = mediocre scorer in the NHL, at best. Second line or bust, and he never managed to stick on a second line.
Zherdev = first-line talent that no team in the NHL wants on their first (or second, if they can help it) lines.

All told, this is a combination of mediocre to bad NHL players + two NHL players who were well past their primes (one of whom was formerly elite) and thought it was time to head home and take the big paycheck.

We'll see how Radulov does. Of course, he's in the NHL now, and one has to wonder why he's chosen to return for much less money...

In any case, he was the best player in the KHL last year, and yet he will, in all likelihood, be the fourth-best player on the Predators when he returns.


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03-21-2012, 07:15 AM
  #65
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@RewBicks
Out of the guys you mentioned only Dallman, Bochenski and Shirokov (who was never given a real chance in the NHL due to the stacked Canucks roster) are amongst the top scorers/point producers. Zherdev was 18th in the regular season. Artykhin and Svitov are power forwards, they don't have to score 30 per year. Though Artyukhin has changed under the new coach and started to play more skillfully. I guess that means that he had some talent but was never asked to showcase it.

So, what can you cay about guys like Červenka, Vehanen, Shypachyov, Zaripov, Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, Igor Grigorenko, Nikulin, Laine, Aaltonen, Irgl (this list could go on for a while)? And why were Frolov, Morozov, Nagy left out on your list? Plus let's not forget the ones that are in a better place now: Demitra, Marek, Rachunek, Skrastiņš, Vašiček...

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03-21-2012, 07:16 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
There are players in the KHL who could play in the NHL, but the list is still very short and not nearly long enough to allow any current KHL teams to be competitive in the NHL. Hopefully with time it will get longer.
I'm not sure that list is actually that small, so I'll put it this way, NHL has 30 team so roughly 600 hundred players, I'd say out of 600 hundred world's best players ~100 are Russian. And only ~30 of them (but almost exclusively the very best of them) are playing in NHL currently, the rest is in KHL, though concentrated in 7-8 teams. I kinda base on fact that players that really were nobodies in KHL found a solid place in NHL. Who was Bobrovsky in Russia? Everybody was ******** bricks when he put up better numbers in NHL than KHL. Nikitin was second pairing D-man on Avangard (team that got nowhere near the cup in KHL), this season before Johnson trade, he was arguably Jackets second best D-man behind Tyutin.

My point is that there many such Nikitin's and Bobrovsky's in Russia (and these were even never even considered for Russian national team like goalies Barulin, Kosheckin, Yeryomenko or D-Man like Kulyash, Nikulin or Korneyev ), who can no doubt do more than a solid job in NHL. And I don't even mention forwards, because I think that our opinions on what makes one forward great varies too wildly.

But just for the record, I'm not stating that KHL is on par or even remotely close to the NHL in strenght. As I said, top 8 teams could play in NHL. Could these teams make playoffs? Very unlikely.

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03-21-2012, 09:49 AM
  #67
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I say, instead of trying to figure out who would win if this and that happened, lets try to find out times when players from each league face themselves.. i.e IIHF world Championship.

From perception, here in NA, the championship is valued more to euro country than NA. All players from KHL are eligible to go at this tournement, playoffs of done plus few NHLers. Canada usually send a B or C team (so does russia but not the point!). Where good young up comers are given a chance to experience the Hockey Canada.

Again, from my persepective, the best KHLers are there.

Bottom line is that the best KHLers, with a few NHLers compete against a B or C Canadian team. IMO, it would be very hard for a KHL team to be successful in the NHL when the best KHLers do nothing more than "compete" against good to average players from Canada only.

Not saying they couldn't compete, but it would be very tough for them to win on a consistent basis.

I could be very wrong on team Russia that goes to WC. Some players might just refuse invite or are just not the best KHLers and send average KHLers.

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03-21-2012, 10:24 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by tuker1980 View Post
I say, instead of trying to figure out who would win if this and that happened, lets try to find out times when players from each league face themselves.. i.e IIHF world Championship.

From perception, here in NA, the championship is valued more to euro country than NA. All players from KHL are eligible to go at this tournement, playoffs of done plus few NHLers. Canada usually send a B or C team (so does russia but not the point!). Where good young up comers are given a chance to experience the Hockey Canada.

Again, from my persepective, the best KHLers are there.

Bottom line is that the best KHLers, with a few NHLers compete against a B or C Canadian team. IMO, it would be very hard for a KHL team to be successful in the NHL when the best KHLers do nothing more than "compete" against good to average players from Canada only. Real blowouts are hard to come by, when somewhat decent hockey nations meat.

Not saying they couldn't compete, but it would be very tough for them to win on a consistent basis.

I could be very wrong on team Russia that goes to WC. Some players might just refuse invite or are just not the best KHLers and send average KHLers.
I'm not a fan of this post, too much speculation and unclear wording used. "B-C team", "compete" etc. I can look at team Latvia in Olympics 2010 and see that Czech's needed overtime to overcome what basically was a Dinamo Riga KHL roster - 10-15 placed team in KHL.

Look at this American roster from last WC and tell me they shouldn't have done more damage last year "with so many players that made it in the NHL"? Barely scraped by France, managed to loose against Switzerland on got shut out at QF's by Czech's - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...ce_hockey_team

But again disclaimer, I'm not saying KHL teams are anywhere near NHL strenght wise. But I do think that most NHL fans attach too much weight to a single fact that one player is NHL-er and other isn't. There are tens of such Stappleton's or Mike Brown's in Europe but they simply are labelled as inferior because they aren't in NHL. Bottom 6 NHL-ers aren't anything special individually, but they put together with talant from their respective team's top6 makes NHL teams the powerhouses they really are.

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03-21-2012, 11:15 AM
  #69
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I'm not sure that list is actually that small, so I'll put it this way, NHL has 30 team so roughly 600 hundred players, I'd say out of 600 hundred world's best players ~100 are Russian. And only ~30 of them (but almost exclusively the very best of them) are playing in NHL currently, the rest is in KHL, though concentrated in 7-8 teams. I kinda base on fact that players that really were nobodies in KHL found a solid place in NHL. Who was Bobrovsky in Russia? Everybody was ******** bricks when he put up better numbers in NHL than KHL. Nikitin was second pairing D-man on Avangard (team that got nowhere near the cup in KHL), this season before Johnson trade, he was arguably Jackets second best D-man behind Tyutin.

My point is that there many such Nikitin's and Bobrovsky's in Russia (and these were even never even considered for Russian national team like goalies Barulin, Kosheckin, Yeryomenko or D-Man like Kulyash, Nikulin or Korneyev ), who can no doubt do more than a solid job in NHL. And I don't even mention forwards, because I think that our opinions on what makes one forward great varies too wildly.

But just for the record, I'm not stating that KHL is on par or even remotely close to the NHL in strenght. As I said, top 8 teams could play in NHL. Could these teams make playoffs? Very unlikely.
According to the IIHF's 2011 Survey of Players Russia accounts for 4.1% of the world's total hockey players, 5.9% of the world's U20 players and has 5.2% of the world's hockey arenas. 28 of the 956, or 2.9% of the players who played a game in the NHL this year were from Russia. This means Russia is under represented in the NHL by ~ 2.3% or around 22 players. In other words on average there is slightly less than one Russian player on each of the 24 KHL teams who could potentially be playing in the NHL.

In your opening statement you claimed that Russia produces ~ 17% of the world's top players which is an inflation of around 300%. I understand that you are a fan of the KHL and as a result are probably arguing from more of an emotional than factual perspective, and I understand that, but it's hard to let such unrealistic statements stand unchallenged.

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03-21-2012, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuker1980 View Post
I say, instead of trying to figure out who would win if this and that happened, lets try to find out times when players from each league face themselves.. i.e IIHF world Championship.

From perception, here in NA, the championship is valued more to euro country than NA. All players from KHL are eligible to go at this tournement, playoffs of done plus few NHLers. Canada usually send a B or C team (so does russia but not the point!). Where good young up comers are given a chance to experience the Hockey Canada.

Again, from my persepective, the best KHLers are there.

Bottom line is that the best KHLers, with a few NHLers compete against a B or C Canadian team. IMO, it would be very hard for a KHL team to be successful in the NHL when the best KHLers do nothing more than "compete" against good to average players from Canada only.

Not saying they couldn't compete, but it would be very tough for them to win on a consistent basis.

I could be very wrong on team Russia that goes to WC. Some players might just refuse invite or are just not the best KHLers and send average KHLers.
Hmm, I think Canada's 2008 WC team would've been a real SC contender. Last year's also was very good by NHL standards (maybe the G position could've been stronger).

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03-21-2012, 11:46 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
According to the IIHF's 2011 Survey of Players Russia accounts for 4.1% of the world's total hockey players, 5.9% of the world's U20 players and has 5.2% of the world's hockey arenas. 28 of the 956, or 2.9% of the players who played a game in the NHL this year were from Russia. This means Russia is under represented in the NHL by ~ 2.3% or around 22 players. In other words on average there is slightly less than one Russian player on each of the 24 KHL teams who could potentially be playing in the NHL.

In your opening statement you claimed that Russia produces ~ 17% of the world's top players which is an inflation of around 300%. I understand that you are a fan of the KHL and as a result are probably arguing from more of an emotional than factual perspective, and I understand that, but it's hard to let such unrealistic statements stand unchallenged.
I'm not doubting the superiority of Canadian bookkeeping (this sentence has two meanings).

You seem like fair headed guy who actually tries to build nice and thought out posts, but this post kinda ruins your credibility in my eyes if you really think that plain numbers of all registered players can prove anything in this argument. What if I told you that there are twice as many Russian hockey players out there than in official IIHF number? This rating is a joke when we talk about former Soviet block countries.

Btw, I'm not a fan of KHL, I've never seen a full KHL game as a neutral, though I'm staying up every night to catch some NHL action.

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03-21-2012, 11:58 AM
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Mr Kanadensisk
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I'm not doubting the superiority of Canadian bookkeeping (this sentence has two meanings).

You seem like fair headed guy who actually tries to build nice and thought out posts, but this post kinda ruins your credibility in my eyes if you really think that plain numbers of all registered players can prove anything in this argument. What if I told you that there are twice as many Russian hockey players out there than in official IIHF number? This rating is a joke when we talk about former Soviet block countries.

Btw, I'm not a fan of KHL, I've never seen a full KHL game as a neutral, though I'm staying up every night to catch some NHL action.
If you include all the former Soviet countries the percentages increase by ~1.3%. The percentage of unregister players is most likely fairly uniform across all countries. I know this because the numbers show a direct correlation between the number of registered players and indoor rinks and the number of indoor rinks is very hard to fudge or get wrong.

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03-21-2012, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
If you include all the former Soviet countries the percentages increase by ~1.3%. The percentage of unregister players is most likely fairly uniform across all countries. I know this because the numbers show a direct correlation between the number of registered players and indoor rinks and the number of indoor rinks is very hard to fudge or get wrong.


If you are into numbers so much, how would all these percentages look if you would use a cut-off point for NHL-ers. Don't include any player with less than 20/40 NHL appearances this season. It would be somewhat, and only somewhat more precise, because Russians and Europeans in general tend not to be emergency callups.

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03-21-2012, 02:05 PM
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If you are into numbers so much, how would all these percentages look if you would use a cut-off point for NHL-ers. Don't include any player with less than 20/40 NHL appearances this season. It would be somewhat, and only somewhat more precise, because Russians and Europeans in general tend not to be emergency callups.
65% of the skaters from Russia in the NHL have played in 40 or more games this season and the average for the whole league with 40+ games is 62%. It makes a very small difference.

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