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Old
03-21-2012, 11:56 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
agreed. to say they are paying a goalie to cover up for poor D [as an excuse for that poor D, and a method of putting the blame on the goalie lol]

is just like [and just as absurd as] saying that the D should be covering up for a bad goalie, and putting the blame on the D.


not once did i see anybody say that the D are getting paid to cover up for a bad goalie.

it was just silly how a few here bashed him, while most preached patience
Uh...no. There's nothing silly about it. Bryz was easily one of the worst starting goalies in the league for much of the season. Hell, he was worse than a few backups. He deserved the criticism he got.

As for the D: people didn't say that because saying so would have been stupid. The defense was doing their best to cover for Bryz within their abilities, but it often didn't matter what they did. There were many goals where the defense played everything correctly, and the puck still went in because Bryz was bad. The only way the defense could have covered for Bryz during that period is if we had the same team from 09-10 that babysat Leighton. Expecting them to make up for his performances considering the players we lost/traded is a bit extreme. The fact that Bob outperformed Bryz for much of the season shows that Bryz was the issue more than the defense. EDIT: Expecting Bryz to play like the goalie we signed him to be is much less of a stretch than expecting the D to be something they really aren't.

The defense is playing better now, they've tightened up...but they're still allowing good chances and making dumb mistakes, as well as getting pinned in their end at times. They still don't strike me as being all that great. The major difference is that Bryz is actually stopping pucks now. Simple wraparounds and shots from the blue line aren't going in. If Bryz had played like this from the beginning, there still would have been a few unstoppable one timers and a load of breakaways...but there also would have been far fewer goals allowed nonetheless, because any shot on net had a solid chance of going in for a while. The defense can't close Bryz's five hole for him.

Seriously. Bryzgalov was that bad. The defense wasn't great, but Bryz was worse. He was the bigger issue, Bob outperforming him for so long behind the same team indicates that. Grossman has been a boost on defense, but the biggest boost by far has been Bryz finally performing as he was supposed to.

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Old
03-21-2012, 12:26 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
As for the D: people didn't say that because saying so would have been stupid.
as stupid as saying that any part of the team is getting paid to cover up for another part of the team.

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03-21-2012, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
agreed. to say they are paying a goalie to cover up for poor D [as an excuse for that poor D, and a method of putting the blame on the goalie lol]

is just like [and just as absurd as] saying that the D should be covering up for a bad goalie, and putting the blame on the D.


not once did i see anybody say that the D are getting paid to cover up for a bad goalie.

it was just silly how a few here bashed him, while most preached patience
I'm slightly confused here. Are you referring to this year, as in this D core being paid to cover up for a bad goalie (presumably Bryz), or are you saying in general, you have never seen anyone say that the D are getting paid to cover up for ANY bad goalie?

If it's the first one, then well, you're right, because that's not what this D is getting paid to do.

If it's the second one, were you here for the whole Leighton/Boucher fiasco and the epic Shafer/Jester discussions?

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03-21-2012, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
as stupid as saying that any part of the team is getting paid to cover up for another part of the team.
Every scoring opportunity the opponent gets is a result of some failing by the team. Either they didn't get the puck, turned it over, didn't deny entry to the zone, didn't cover correctly, didn't block the shot, got flat out beat, etc. By definition, the goalie's job is to clean up after those failings and keep the puck from going in. No team can play so amazingly well that zero shots are allowed, and it's the goalies job to stop the shots that occur from going in.

So yeah. The goalie is paid to cover for another part of the team; technically, the entire team. It's his whole purpose.

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03-21-2012, 12:51 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
agreed. to say they are paying a goalie to cover up for poor D [as an excuse for that poor D, and a method of putting the blame on the goalie lol]

is just like [and just as absurd as] saying that the D should be covering up for a bad goalie, and putting the blame on the D.
The Flyers D was FORCED to make-up for a bad goalie when Leighton was the goaltender. They had no choice in the matter.

Holmgren never went, "Here you go guys. I've paid you all this money and assembled you for the sole purpose of allowing us to win despite our shoddy netminding."

Everyone forgets that Ray Emery WAS our starter, and until he went down, he was very good that season. Then we got Leighton, who got his game simplified to the point where he was quite literally being paid to play like a glorified trash can between the pipes.


What Holmgren did this past offseason was go out and try to get the elite goalie the Flyers' fans always wanted. This was not necessarily because he lost Richards and Carter. Hell he didn't even know the future that was in store for Pronger. Still he expected, like any rational man, that the defensive aptitude lost in the trades of Richards and Carter would be made up for Bryzgalov's elite play.

We expected to pay Bryzgalov, an elite goalie, to play like an elite goalie. It had nothing to do with the defense or what Holmgren expected from them. Bryzgalov did not play at that level. It was completely, 100%, without a doubt on him.

While I understand that we were playing with rookies a lot and that we lost Richards, Carter, and Pronger, I don't give Bryzgalov a pass.

World class defenses (like ours in 2010) can make the worst goalie look like a stud.

Strong defenses (like the one we have no when healthy) just can't.

So if Bryzgalov is playing at a level of Micheal Leighton, there isn't much our team can do other than let pucks hit twine despite their best efforts.

And those who don't believe our defense is still a strong defense need to pay attention to other teams. It's nowhere near as elite as it was before, but we were spoiled back then. Remember when I used to yell at people for believing every top 9 forward had to be a 20-goal scorer? It's just like that.

Frankly though, I hope Bryzgalov spoils the hell out of us from here on out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
not once did i see anybody say that the D are getting paid to cover up for a bad goalie.

it was just silly how a few here bashed him, while most preached patience
I proudly admit that I wanted Bryzgalov run out of town.

When he was making 5.67m to suck ass, it made tons of sense. We'd just go back to the method we had before which was pays chunks of money to make our skating core elite and override the fact that our goaltending was mediocre (though hopefully Bob would be better than mediocre).

As for the bold, I just said it. Whether we planned it or not, that's exactly what happened.

With Bryzgalov playing like total crap, I would have been more than willing to pay extra money toward defensemen and jet Bryzgalov back to anywhere in the world but Philadelphia.

Now that he's turned into something we've never had, a goaltender that can win us games when we aren't playing at our very best, I'm much more reluctant to kick him out of town.

I still think it's wiser to pay less for goaltending and invest in skaters though. I'm still not, and will never likely be, a fan of Bryzgalov's contract.

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03-21-2012, 01:21 PM
  #56
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not really. where were you when we where fighting the good fight for him earlier in the season. its easy to show up after alls said and almost done but come on dude. you never posted when he was suckin (due to confidence and crappy play by the team in front) so its actually insanely lame that your saying told you so. it would be lame even if you did post but the fact that you didn't is just retarded. no offense. ha.i guess the whole "is bryz worth his contract" thread was over your head? and btw, nobody stands up for carle anymore. get with it!
Really? I MEAN REALLY? Did I not say to read those threads. I stopped visiting for awhile because of the short-sightedness of people who responded back in those threads.

Flyers fans are smart but half the time I am not sure if most of the smart fans are the ones on this board. That EXACT thread (one of the five, maybe even 2) have pages of me arguing that he was going through a rough time. I assure you I didn't just decide to boast about supporting him now. I have been taking my licks all season long for believing in him.

Again, before you assume, do your reading or just dont say I didn't do it all season long. Ignorance is never an excuse.

And, PEOPLE STILL STAND UP FOR CARLE. I just had a mini-war on facebook with people saying I was ridiculous for telling them that his stats are misleading. And I am talking about last week.

So, you get with it. For pete's sake if you want to argue do your research first.

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03-21-2012, 01:32 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I don't give Bryzgalov a pass.
i didn't either. i said Lavi & Homer need to sit him down, tell him to man up & put on the Big Boy pants, shut his mouth & stop playing the martyr.

that being said, i'll never agree that any position on any team is getting paid to cover up for another party of the team, no matter how many times you & beef re-word it.

yes, Bryz struggled up until the [well deserved] WC benching & for a few more games after the flu.

nobody argued that.

it's only a handful of people here that went overboard, i'm not sure why it's even an issue .. it just looks like some here would rather talk about his earlier struggles, and not that he's playing lights out [as was expected by most here & the Flyers organization - that's why they signed him: the way he's playing now.

it's like a few here are out to prove that 'it was ALL Bryz' .... ok, then if it was all Bryz, then he gets ALL the credit now.

either way, i'd rather talk about the present & the playoffs .. i'll let those who want to dwell in Oct - Dec do so without me

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03-21-2012, 02:08 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
that being said, i'll never agree that any position on any team is getting paid to cover up for another party of the team, no matter how many times you & beef re-word it.
You come off like a kid jamming fingers in his ears and screaming "SANTA DOES EXIST!" over and over again.

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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
it's only a handful of people here that went overboard, i'm not sure why it's even an issue .. it just looks like some here would rather talk about his earlier struggles, and not that he's playing lights out [as was expected by most here & the Flyers organization - that's why they signed him: the way he's playing now.
Who went overboard? I've easily been the most outspoken about Bryzgalov's struggles. I stand by everything I said, and I stand by him now that he is playing like he's capable of winning games.

I'm sorry if I wasn't patient when he still sucked after the halfway mark of the season. I'm sorry if I was afraid we put all of our eggs in the disaster basket.

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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
it's like a few here are out to prove that 'it was ALL Bryz' .... ok, then if it was all Bryz, then he gets ALL the credit now.
It was all Bryz, and he can have all the credit he wants now. He's earned it.

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either way, i'd rather talk about the present & the playoffs .. i'll let those who want to dwell in Oct - Dec do so without me
You're the only one dwelling on the season up until the Calgary shootout.

Everyone else has moved on, but you seem to want to tell people that we shouldn't have believed he sucked when he obviously did.

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03-21-2012, 02:35 PM
  #59
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How has this thread degraded into another BUMzgalov vs Bryzgalov thread?

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03-21-2012, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Who went overboard?
since you asked, i'm sure i can answer without getting in trouble:

the guys who said 'cut him' & eat the 9 year contract 26 games into it
the guys who said 'he's fat'
the guys who said 'he was lazy in the summer'
the guys who called / call him a bum
those who said it 'was all on Bryz'
those who blamed him on goals that bounced off opponents pants
those who blamed him on kicked in 'non goals' that never even counted
those who blamed him on every deflection

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03-21-2012, 02:39 PM
  #61
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Everyone else has moved on
no, they haven't. just look around.

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03-21-2012, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
no, they haven't. just look around.

The only ppl that mention his terrible start are the ppl who make a thousand excuses for it.

Everybody else is busy acknowledging his great play.


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03-21-2012, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
since you asked, i'm sure i can answer without getting in trouble:

the guys who said 'cut him' & eat the 9 year contract 26 games into it
I don't remember what game it started, but I was definitely saying cut him even after the Calgary game. It wasn't until he started putting a string of spectacular games together that he earned some respect from me.

We've already established that I didn't really go overboard.

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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
the guys who said 'he's fat'
the guys who said 'he was lazy in the summer'
Well, while I haven't seen any actual evidence, there is more evidence supporting the "fat" argument than not. I will however add that any evidence is really, really minute.

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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
the guys who called / call him a bum
He was playing like crap, so yeah. He was a bum.

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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
those who said it 'was all on Bryz'
It was. At the beginning of the season we were winning despite him. When guys went down with injuries we stopped winning games because we couldn't carry him anymore.

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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
those who blamed him on goals that bounced off opponents pants
Never saw that one.

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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
those who blamed him on kicked in 'non goals' that never even counted
those who blamed him on every deflection
Yeah, we have pretty rational people on this board. I'm sure they would admit, had they known all the details, that Bryzgalov can't be blamed for deflections.

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03-21-2012, 02:50 PM
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well, Chris, you asked who i thought was / going overboard & i stand by my opinions.

it's OK if we don't agree.

to say cut him & eat the 9 year deal after the CAL game is 'overboard' in my view

Nashville goal [on road] off the guys pants was Bryz's fault according to some here, i kid you not.

and some here are still labelling him a bum. and he's clearly not playing like one, even by your admission

i'm not making it up. i'm just noticing it.

but we are all entitled to our own opinions, so it's all good

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03-21-2012, 06:16 PM
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I have to do it...

Bryz doubters/haters: "Told ya so, Told ya so..." doing a little dance

Everyone loves to give up on goalies so quickly in philly. Half the fans still believe in JVR or still stand up for Carle, but the goalie has 2 bad months and doesn't dress up in O&B and put on a clinic immediately, and we dub him enemy number 1.

Love the bandwagoners and impatient fans who suddenly cheer him on after booing him.

Side note, since when did Boo'ing anyone help their game (when they are on our team)? It doesn't.

Point is, people were happy to see him fail and happy to have a skate goat. If people wanted him to succeed, they wouldn't have given up on him so quickly.

I am just glad that the Bryz jersey I bought in the beginning of the year doesn't get me Boo'ed at games now.
Quoted for bleeping truth.

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03-21-2012, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
since you asked, i'm sure i can answer without getting in trouble:

the guys who said 'cut him' & eat the 9 year contract 26 games into it
the guys who said 'he's fat'
the guys who said 'he was lazy in the summer'
the guys who called / call him a bum
those who said it 'was all on Bryz'
those who blamed him on goals that bounced off opponents pants
those who blamed him on kicked in 'non goals' that never even counted
those who blamed him on every deflection
You forgot those who said he got outplayed in a game in which he shut the other team out.

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03-21-2012, 06:30 PM
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Bryz has his GVT all the way up to -0.1 (http://hockeyprospectus.com/sortable/). He was good in January (guess that talk after the 24/7 camera left worked), but since he really turned it on almost a month ago, it's gotten back to where the Flyers have basically broken even on the season with him. The math also worked in his favor, it should have been something of a given that his save percentage would normalize.

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03-21-2012, 06:35 PM
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what is GVT ?

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03-21-2012, 06:38 PM
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what is GVT ?
http://hockeyprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=233

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03-21-2012, 06:40 PM
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Really? I MEAN REALLY? Did I not say to read those threads. I stopped visiting for awhile because of the short-sightedness of people who responded back in those threads.

Flyers fans are smart but half the time I am not sure if most of the smart fans are the ones on this board. That EXACT thread (one of the five, maybe even 2) have pages of me arguing that he was going through a rough time. I assure you I didn't just decide to boast about supporting him now. I have been taking my licks all season long for believing in him.

Again, before you assume, do your reading or just dont say I didn't do it all season long. Ignorance is never an excuse.

And, PEOPLE STILL STAND UP FOR CARLE. I just had a mini-war on facebook with people saying I was ridiculous for telling them that his stats are misleading. And I am talking about last week.

So, you get with it. For pete's sake if you want to argue do your research first.
your right, i apologize. I went back and saw some of your posts. You did defend. don't gloat tho. Even though you were right. I agreed btw. The thing that is most overlooked in this argument between the dudes that believed and the guys that didn't' is that it proves that you were really never gonna give him a chance based on how fast the insults started flowing in. Anyone who saw him play in the playoffs in 2006 and then watched him a lot in phoenix knew that it couldn't be HIM by himself that is the problem, it had to be other factors causing his crappy play earlier in the season. To jump on him that early proved that you didn't have high expectations to begin with and that you were ready to say "told you he sucked" before he unpacked his bags. The WHOLE team sucked and has adjusted and HE in the meantime has doubled up on his first star of the week honors. don't gloat but its a beautiful thing to be right.

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03-21-2012, 06:45 PM
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The only ppl that mention his terrible start are the ppl who make a thousand excuses for it.

Everybody else is busy acknowledging his great play.
We just like to remind you of your early lack of faith and your continuously horrible avatar. Plus, it's fun.

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03-21-2012, 06:53 PM
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To jump on him that early proved that you didn't have high expectations to begin with and that you were ready to say "told you he sucked" before he unpacked his bags.

and that, my friend, sums it up completely. it's so good to see the Bryz that his career performance suggested we'd be getting. for sure there was gonna be an adjustment period. on top of that, he had no self confidence.

just makes hos turnaround all the more enjoyable to see

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03-21-2012, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
and that, my friend, sums it up completely. it's so good to see the Bryz that his career performance suggested we'd be getting. for sure there was gonna be an adjustment period. on top of that, he had no self confidence.

just makes hos turnaround all the more enjoyable to see
Yea. It's really nice to finally have a guy to start every game and not really have to think about it. considering our history, i guess you can't blame these guys for being cynical but at least what we did can now be realized for what it was, why we did it and that it seems to be working. I don't care about the money in that if this works for even 5 years, it'll be way worth it especially considering all the money we've wasted failing in this one position over the years. We are sorta scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point but it is a fun argument. or an opinionated topic anyway.

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03-21-2012, 07:22 PM
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i'll trade 1 CUP for the entire 9 year deal. if I see Bryz hoist it as our #1, then I will be satisfied with the deal.

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03-21-2012, 07:35 PM
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You forgot those who said he got outplayed in a game in which he shut the other team out.
The other goalie also got a shutout despite facing significantly more shots, and then shut out the Flyers SO shooters. "Got outplayed" is a relative, not an absolute, assessment.

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Quoted for bleeping truth.
Well, except for "skate goat".


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