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Old
03-21-2012, 04:26 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by guymez View Post
So...who is managing the team? Isn't that the GM's job? You seem to be suggesting that Tambo is nothing more than lame duck manager doing exactly what Katz wants. That might explain a few things. I had always assumed that Tambo was his own man and he only needed Katz' to approve the salaries on proposed signings and deals.

If your theory is correct then it really explains why the team is so messed up.



BTW, just to clear up your use of the term fanboys...fanboys are defined by their willingness to believe what ever the team says and go along willingly with everything they do. They just cheerlead. Critical thinking isn't part of that equation.

As for OKC..a team identity is defined by the team. Not the few rookies that have a slim chance at making the NHL club.

The identity of the Barons has little to do with the identity of the Oilers.
No team goes into a rebuild like the Oilers without the support/sanctioning of the ownership group.

There are some GMs that get absolute autonomy in running a team, but honestly this isn't normally the case with many franchises. I tend to think the GM has to "pitch" a 4-5 year plan for the team and the ownership has to be on board with that plan. In the Oilers case I think they made this decision already 2 years ago and there's no stopping it now.

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03-21-2012, 04:52 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
No team goes into a rebuild like the Oilers without the support/sanctioning of the ownership group.

There are some GMs that get absolute autonomy in running a team, but honestly this isn't normally the case with many franchises. I tend to think the GM has to "pitch" a 4-5 year plan for the team and the ownership has to be on board with that plan. In the Oilers case I think they made this decision already 2 years ago and there's no stopping it now.
Thats fine...thats a different scenario all together than having the Owner dictate to the GM exactly what the plan is.

I don't think much of Tambos ability to build and run a team but I think even less of Katz's.

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03-21-2012, 05:14 PM
  #203
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Thats fine...thats a different scenario all together than having the Owner dictate to the GM exactly what the plan is.

I don't think much of Tambos ability to build and run a team but I think even less of Katz's.
of course most self made billionaires are morons and have no idea how to run a business.

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03-21-2012, 05:16 PM
  #204
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Thats fine...thats a different scenario all together than having the Owner dictate to the GM exactly what the plan is.

I don't think much of Tambos ability to build and run a team but I think even less of Katz's.
Well I mean define "dictate" ... if a GM has to get an owner to sign off on what they're planning, then it is essentially the same thing.

"Tanking" or "building through the draft" (which ever way you look at it) I think is absolutely something the Oilers ownership group + management are both in agreement with.

I think internally they even have a layout of where they project to be year-by-year, with likely next season ear marked as a year to spend a little more and make more serious changes to the roster in hopes of flirting with a playoff berth. The last two years were by design to get players the franchise could build around Taylor Hall with.

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03-21-2012, 05:20 PM
  #205
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Well I mean define "dictate" ... if a GM has to get an owner to sign off on what they're planning, then it is essentially the same thing.

"Tanking" or "building through the draft" (which ever way you look at it) I think is absolutely something the Oilers ownership group + management are both in agreement with.
I don't see it as the same thing at all because when an owner signs off on something the impetus for change is coming from the GM...not the owner.

If I am a GM and an owner comes to me and tells me what I am obligated to do then I would be looking for a new job.


Who hires someone to run a team and then tells him what to do?
Certainly not a responsible owner.

The owner should give an outline and have the confidence in their Manager to be able to operate within that set of parameters provided there is room for success.


Last edited by guymez: 03-21-2012 at 05:26 PM.
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03-21-2012, 05:20 PM
  #206
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One thing that's been a bigger joke than the Oilers' record.

Terry Jones.

The guy is on Michael Moore's level as far as being the fat guy that constantly whines because nobody's ever liked him.
Jones might be a joke on most occasions but he's completely in the right to call this to our attention. It's scary that this fact has been overlooked and glossed over.

A record worse than the NY Islanders and Columbus since the lockout despite a decent record in 05/06 and a Cup run. Fun stuff.

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03-21-2012, 05:21 PM
  #207
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of course most self made billionaires are morons and have no idea how to run a business.
Of course there is absolutely no difference between running a standard business and building a hockey team.

Meddling owners are not an ingredient for creating a successful team. Hire a hockey person to do the job and then have the sense to keep your hands off and let him actually do the job.

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03-21-2012, 05:26 PM
  #208
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I don't see it as the same thing at all because when an owner signs off on something the impetus for change is coming from the GM...not the owner.

If I am a GM and an owner comes to me and tells me what I am obligated to do then I would be looking for a new job.

Who hires someone to run a team and then tells him what to do?

Certainly not a responsible owner.
I think most ownership groups decide when it's time to rebuild. I know maybe people like to think that comes from the GM, but that sort of monumental shift in organizational focus generally has to come from above or at the very least cannot begin until the ownership group signs off on it.

I'm pretty damn sure they sorta fluked into Taylor Hall because of all the injuries, but after that they went to Katz and said "look we might have to do this 2 or 3 more years to build ala Chicago or Pittsburgh. Would you be ok with that?" and Katz obviously said yes. And more or less they've stuck to that mandate, that's why Tambellini's job doesn't appear to be in any danger.

It's not like autonomy really is the be all, end all ... clearly Kevin Lowe traded Ryan Smyth on his own whims, if that was up to the ownership group they probably wouldn't have allowed it. Ditto for the Pronger trade to Anaheim.


Last edited by Soundwave: 03-21-2012 at 05:33 PM.
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Old
03-21-2012, 05:31 PM
  #209
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I think most ownership groups decide when it's time to rebuild. I know maybe people like to think that comes from the GM, but that sort of monumental shift in organizational focus generally has to come from above.

It's not like autonomy really is the be all, end all ... clearly Kevin Lowe traded Ryan Smyth on his own whims, if that was up to the ownership group they probably wouldn't have allowed it.
I think thats a little presumptuous...its entirely conceivable (and desirable) that a GM would approach the owner with a plan to rebuild the team.
Any GM worth their salt would be able to determine that the direction of the team needs a 180.
If I was an owner and had to tell my GM what he should have known already then I need to take a step back and ask myself if I hired the right man. The owner isn't a hockey person...the GM is supposed to be, so he should be the one recommending changes of direction.

Unless it is a cost issue where the owner is forced to cut expenses he should let his hockey people run the team and determine the direction the team should take.

Giving approval and being the impetus for change are 2 entirely different things.

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03-21-2012, 05:34 PM
  #210
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If the Oilers aren't a playoff team by the time Katz' new hockey temple is built downtown then you'll probably see heads roll.

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03-21-2012, 05:36 PM
  #211
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Of course there is absolutely no difference between running a standard business and building a hockey team.

Meddling owners are not an ingredient for creating a successful team. Hire a hockey person to do the job and then have the sense to keep your hands off and let him actually do the job.
Kind of looks like the owner did just that and let the GM put together a 5 year plan and shockingly, implement said plan.

The organization has been abundantly clear on this topic.

It appears however that "some" people only want to complain about management.

I hear Toronto is looking for a GM, clearly you should get the job.

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03-21-2012, 05:36 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by guymez View Post
I think thats a little presumptuous...its entirely conceivable (and desirable) that a GM would approach the owner with a plan to rebuild the team.
Any GM worth their salt would be able to determine that the direction of the team needs a 180.
If I was an owner and had to tell my GM what he should have known already then I need to take a step back and ask myself if I hired the right man. The owner isn't a hockey person...the GM is supposed to be, so he should be the one recommending changes of direction.

Unless it is a cost issue where the owner is forced to cut expenses he should let his hockey people run the team and determine the direction the team should take.

Giving approval and being the impetus for change are 2 entirely different things.
In the Oilers case though this isn't as relevant (in terms of who initiated the rebuild ... was it management dicating versus the GM) ... fate intervened and forced it upon us with the season ending injuries to Hemsky + Khabibulin (and various other injuries) on top of Heatley refusing to come here.

The only real decision the Oilers made after that was leading up to the Hall/Seguin sweepstakes was whether or not they were now going to do that for 1-3 more seasons ... and obviously I think both ownership and the GM saw the merit in it.

A more applicable situation to your scenario may be Calgary ... where ownership very much would have to be the ones that would allow Iginla to be traded and for a real rebuild to start. Feaster is simply not allowed to just trade Iginla or Kiprusoff. I was listening to Calgary's Fan 960 post game last night and some people were absolutely livid at Ken King, lol.

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03-21-2012, 05:36 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
If the Oilers aren't a playoff team by the time Katz' new hockey temple is built downtown then you'll probably see heads roll.
In 3 years from now? Thats just nutty.

If this team isn't at or just below the playoff cut line next season then how can anyone believe in Tambos plan?

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03-21-2012, 05:38 PM
  #214
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In the Oilers case though this isn't as relevant (in terms of who initiated the rebuild ... was it management dicating versus the GM) ... fate intervened and forced us to examine and choose that route with Hemsky and Khabibulin being lost for the season early on a couple of years ago.

The only real decision the Oilers made after that was leading up to the Hall/Seguin sweepstakes was whether or not they were now going to do that for 1-3 more seasons ... and obviously I think both ownership and the GM saw the merit in it.

A more applicable situation to your scenario may be Calgary ... where ownership very much would have to be the ones that would allow Iginla to be traded and for a real rebuild to start. Feaster is simply not allowed to just trade Iginla or Kiprusoff.
See...now you are blurring the lines. Since when was Katz part of the hockey Management team?

As for Feaster...I would have my ass out looking for a new job. Assuming of course that there is some truth to your claim...it could be BS.

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03-21-2012, 05:47 PM
  #215
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Late to the party but...

- Harski on the 2nd Hemsky goal... absolutely brilliant. If he meant to stick check Rinne's stick when Rinne tried to poke check/poke slap it to the corner, then massive kudos. That was a fantastic play to leave Hemsky with the roof job.

- Eager taking that penalty in regard to Smyth getting bumped... I liked that. Even with the 2 min penalty.

- Speaking of both of them... I dunno how long Harksi can continue playing as big as he is. Yesterday I felt that Harski can't be counted on to be the toughest forward. He started getting bullied around after Weber hit him. He needs to know that there's someone else that is tougher and has his back. That should be Eager. But I think Eager's in the same predicament. He needs someone else scarier in the lineup so he can play big. Sutton could be that guy if he was a little crazier in his old age. Peckham is not that guy. Did that thought stream make sense?

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03-21-2012, 05:54 PM
  #216
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Late to the party but...

- Harski on the 2nd Hemsky goal... absolutely brilliant. If he meant to stick check Rinne's stick when Rinne tried to poke check/poke slap it to the corner, then massive kudos. That was a fantastic play to leave Hemsky with the roof job.

- Eager taking that penalty in regard to Smyth getting bumped... I liked that. Even with the 2 min penalty.

- Speaking of both of them... I dunno how long Harksi can continue playing as big as he is. Yesterday I felt that Harski can't be counted on to be the toughest forward. He started getting bullied around after Weber hit him. He needs to know that there's someone else that is tougher and has his back. That should be Eager. But I think Eager's in the same predicament. He needs someone else scarier in the lineup so he can play big. Sutton could be that guy if he was a little crazier in his old age. Peckham is not that guy. Did that thought stream make sense?

totally makes sense. I think Pecks could be that guy though

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03-21-2012, 05:57 PM
  #217
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See...now you are blurring the lines. Since when was Katz part of the hockey Management team?

As for Feaster...I would have my ass out looking for a new job. Assuming of course that there is some truth to your claim...it could be BS.
Any ownership group has to be consulted before a rebuild if you honestly think otherwise you're being naive.

A rebuild can involve having to slash ticket prices or have your attendance drop dramatically, of course the friggin' ownership group has to be involved with that there are massive business implications to take into consideration.

And there probably aren't too many GMs (great hockey minds or not) that would have a job for long if they're going in a direction the ownership doesn't like.

And it's well known in Calgary that no one trades Iginla unless it's cleared by the ownership group there. C'mon now. Doesn't matter if that's Feaster or Scotty Bowman or Don Cherry or Lanny MacDonald or whoever.


Last edited by Soundwave: 03-21-2012 at 06:03 PM.
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03-21-2012, 06:26 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Soli View Post
Late to the party but...

- Harski on the 2nd Hemsky goal... absolutely brilliant. If he meant to stick check Rinne's stick when Rinne tried to poke check/poke slap it to the corner, then massive kudos. That was a fantastic play to leave Hemsky with the roof job.

- Eager taking that penalty in regard to Smyth getting bumped... I liked that. Even with the 2 min penalty.

- Speaking of both of them... I dunno how long Harksi can continue playing as big as he is. Yesterday I felt that Harski can't be counted on to be the toughest forward. He started getting bullied around after Weber hit him. He needs to know that there's someone else that is tougher and has his back. That should be Eager. But I think Eager's in the same predicament. He needs someone else scarier in the lineup so he can play big. Sutton could be that guy if he was a little crazier in his old age. Peckham is not that guy. Did that thought stream make sense?
I think Eager will be better next year when he is finally over his injuries, and I have full confidence his abilities.

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03-21-2012, 06:32 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by guymez View Post
Of course there is absolutely no difference between running a standard business and building a hockey team.

Meddling owners are not an ingredient for creating a successful team. Hire a hockey person to do the job and then have the sense to keep your hands off and let him actually do the job.
Charles Wang disagrees with you.

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03-21-2012, 06:38 PM
  #220
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I think Eager will be better next year when he is finally over his injuries, and I have full confidence his abilities.
Totally agree. He was fantastic last night and showed that when healthy he will stick up for people and has the speed to make plays. The real Ben Eager has shown himself in fits and starts this year. He just needs to get healthy again and he'll be fine.

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03-21-2012, 07:16 PM
  #221
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It's not like autonomy really is the be all, end all ... clearly Kevin Lowe traded Ryan Smyth on his own whims, if that was up to the ownership group they probably wouldn't have allowed it. Ditto for the Pronger trade to Anaheim.
Wait... what?

Cal Nichols is on record stating the EIG only reluctantly allowed Kevin Lowe to offer 5.5 million to Ryan Smyth, and that is was a final offer in their minds. He may have made the trade, but once the ownership group tapped out on the negotiations, that is all he could do.

Lowe's whole tenure as GM is marked by his willingness to be cooperative with meddling ownership groups. He was hired on that very principle after Sather came out on the wrong side of an ownership power struggle, and then clashed over the team budget with the new board.

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03-21-2012, 07:37 PM
  #222
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In 3 years from now? Thats just nutty.

If this team isn't at or just below the playoff cut line next season then how can anyone believe in Tambos plan?
Oh, I agree.

Anyway, like I said in the Renney thread, even if Katz is content (for now) it's pretty obvious to me that Tambellini and the rest of the Oilers' brass were hoping against hope for better results this year and Tom's going to take the fall for it.

Memo to Tambi AKA Mr. I like Our Defensive Depth - I'm not the biggest Renney fan in the world but the personnel on this team kind of sucks.

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03-22-2012, 03:00 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Any ownership group has to be consulted before a rebuild if you honestly think otherwise you're being naive.

A rebuild can involve having to slash ticket prices or have your attendance drop dramatically, of course the friggin' ownership group has to be involved with that there are massive business implications to take into consideration.

And there probably aren't too many GMs (great hockey minds or not) that would have a job for long if they're going in a direction the ownership doesn't like.

And it's well known in Calgary that no one trades Iginla unless it's cleared by the ownership group there. C'mon now. Doesn't matter if that's Feaster or Scotty Bowman or Don Cherry or Lanny MacDonald or whoever.
There is a difference between the owner being consulted about decisions for approval purposes and the owner being apart of the decision making process.

Thats the distinction you fail to acknowledge.

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03-22-2012, 03:00 PM
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Charles Wang disagrees with you.
Indeed.

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03-22-2012, 03:01 PM
  #225
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Oh, I agree.

Anyway, like I said in the Renney thread, even if Katz is content (for now) it's pretty obvious to me that Tambellini and the rest of the Oilers' brass were hoping against hope for better results this year and Tom's going to take the fall for it.

Memo to Tambi AKA Mr. I like Our Defensive Depth - I'm not the biggest Renney fan in the world but the personnel on this team kind of sucks.
Tough to gauge the ability of a coach when the expectation is to spin gold out of garbage.

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